Real Guns

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I don't think I've ever really set up a paper target at that range for my 22's.

So whats the smallest target you can hit reliably with your scoped 22 rifle at about 100yds? The bottom of a soda can? An egg? The butthole of a medium sized crane fly? The nucleus of an amoeba?
 
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Ok, minute of soda can butt sounds good enough I guess, I get similar accuracy. Expecting all holes touching is probably asking too much of a rimfire round, though I really wish it was possible since it is the minimum requirement for halfway decent scoped rifle. Its hard for me to accept less than MOA accuracy.
Or maybe I've spent too much time punching paper with center fire rifles.


Thats what my groups looked like. As for size reference, the white sticker is exactly 1'' wide.
The strange thing is, I did not change ammo nor touched my scope and still experienced vertical POI change every now and then. :confused: It was below freezing though, maybe thats when the 22's start to go a little bit crazy.


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The coolest thing shooting 22s however is the sound, or lack thereof. I was at the range with earplugs shooting CCI subsonics, I could hear the firing pin spring doing a ''TWANG'' sound and I could watch the bullet fly and hit the target without getting knocked silly by the recoil. It was like shooting a spring powered gallery gun, just with much more power and range.

Very relaxing.
 
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Well time for me to look into a CCW gun.

I need to decide if I want to go full capacity or easy concealment. I figure the best two for each respective category are the Glock 19 and the M&P Shield. If Glock made a single stack 9 like people have been asking them to for the past 15 years that would be on the list... If anyone has any other suggestions I'm all for it.

I'm not a terribly big guy and I generally don't wear loose clothing, so the M&P looks like a nice option considering that statistically I'll likely never draw it.

On the other hand I'm a big fan of practice, practice, practice and a Glock 19 can be fitted with a .22 conversion kit and is generally easier to shoot. It's also so much more popular.
 
@Zenith I have .22 conversion kits for a few of my Sigs, and while it is fun and cheap, I don't think it's very effective practice. With the low recoil everything about it feels totally different. When you switch back, 9mm ends up feeling like 45.

I've never had a chance to fire a Shield, but I've played around with them at the shop quite a few times and really like the way they feel in the hand. Should feel a lot nicer strapped to your side all day as well.

For rapid fire I agree, but for simple things like drawing and getting your first shot off it can be effective. It's also fun to pewpewpewpew a target when you're bored. :lol:

FN also just came out with this which has interested me.

Similar size to a M&P9C which puts it in between a Glock 19 and a Shield or G26 in terms of size.

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I've been quite interested in the FNS pistols. They seem extremely good out of the box and don't seem to have the downfalls the Glock (grip) and M&P (trigger) have. The design details I've seen make it look like a very intelligently designed pistol. Yet they seem to fly under the radar.

On the other hand I am destined to tinker with my gun, so maybe having a bunch of 7/10 features is a waste if I plan to replace them with 9/10 aftermarket parts.
 
@Zenith I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock 19. That is what I and many of my fellow officers carry as our personal conceal carry weapons (Gen 4 35 as my duty weapon) and not a single one of us has any complaints. I've shot many different makes and models and while I will own other makes, I will always have a Glock on my side when I leave the house.
 
Glock 19 must be one of the most popular choices(I wish I had one), but personally, for everyday carry, I think the appeal of more compact size would weigh heavily in the selection. Especially when Z-Man put it like "between Glock 19 & 26", that sounds really ideal.
 
I am biased and would go with a Walther PPQ or H&K VP9 instead of a Glock 19.

I do not have any experience with carrying. I really need to get my license. However, I do know that small guns like the Shield suck to shoot. So I would go with something in the Glock 19 size range if it can be comfortably concealed.
 
@Zenith I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock 19. That is what I and many of my fellow officers carry as our personal conceal carry weapons (Gen 4 35 as my duty weapon) and not a single one of us has any complaints. I've shot many different makes and models and while I will own other makes, I will always have a Glock on my side when I leave the house.

This seems like the obvious choice. I compared the physical dimensions on the 19 and the Shield and the Glock is only 1/4" wider, 1/2" taller, and 1" longer. The fact that the Glock can do everything makes it hard to pass up.

I tried a friend's 30S (very similar in size to a 19) in a crossbreed holster and it was pretty nice.

Glock 19 must be one of the most popular choices(I wish I had one), but personally, for everyday carry, I think the appeal of more compact size would weigh heavily in the selection. Especially when Z-Man put it like "between Glock 19 & 26", that sounds really ideal.

Unfortunately the lack of accessories and holsters is slightly annoying. It's just not as bread and butter as a Glock.

I am biased and would go with a Walther PPQ or H&K VP9 instead of a Glock 19.

I do not have any experience with carrying. I really need to get my license. However, I do know that small guns like the Shield suck to shoot. So I would go with something in the Glock 19 size range if it can be comfortably concealed.

The PPQ supposedly has an awesome trigger, don't know anything about the VP9.

The last part is where I'm at about now. I'd like to be able to enjoy practicing with the gun and have acceptable performance with it.
 
The PPQ supposedly has an awesome trigger, don't know anything about the VP9.

I own both a Walther PPQ and HK VP9. Both triggers are very good. The PPQ has the better trigger between the PPQ and VP9. I posted the following earlier in the thread (I will make some updates in bold and italics, as some of the information from the previous post is out of date.):

I will work my way from top to bottom comparing the PPQ and VP9, minding that I have not shot the VP9 yet (I have put 400 rounds through VP9).

Sights: Both pistols have factory three dot sights. The PPQ has three white dots and the VP9 has luminescent sights that glow in the dark after being in the light. I slightly prefer the VP9 sights, not because of the glow in the dark, because my eyes seem to pick up the slightly larger dots a bit better.

Between stock sights, I still prefer the VP9 sights. My eyes still pick them up better. However, both have Trijicon HD Night Sights available and if it was not for the price, I would have them on both.

Slides: The serrations on the PPQ appear to be a hair deeper than those on the VP9 and tend to grab your hand better when manipulating the slide. However, HK added some charging supports at the rear of the slide and they are pretty awesome. The charging supports work in their intended function of easing pulling the slide to the rear.

No updates needed. The charging supports on the VP9 are awesome.

Slide Release: Both have slide releases on both sides of the pistol. The PPQ slide releases are identical in appearance, while the VP9 slide releases are not. Functionally, both pistols are about the same.

No update needed.

Takedown: Essentially the same. The PPQ requires the user to pull the trigger, while the VP9 does not. However, I find the takedown to be ever so slightly easier on the PPQ. Probably has more to due with experience.

Both are stupid easy to takedown. Equally easy.

Trigger: Both triggers are very good. Heads and shoulders above the factory trigger on S&W's M&P and Springfield's XDM. The PPQ has a bit longer take up prior to firing a shot. The PPQ has a lighter trigger pull at the wall. The VP9 has an ever so small amount of creep at the wall before breaking and is slightly heavier than the PPQ. The PPQ also has a shorter reset. The VP9 does have a very nice reset though, just a bit longer. The PPQ barely overtravels on the reset, while the VP9 overtravels slightly farther. Overall, the PPQ is better, but not dramatically so.

The lighter trigger on the PPQ tends to make for better groups. A combination of the short take up on the VP9 and short reset on the PPQ would be perfect. However, I cannot complain about either. Both are very good, with the PPQ being better. If I did have a complaint about either, then it would be the PPQ has spoiled most all other pistols because of how good the trigger is out of the box.

Magazine Release: Both are paddle style, which I prefer. I have short thumbs and have to adjust my grip with most all button style releases if they are on the left side. With a paddle release, I am able to use my trigger finger to drop the magazine and not have to adjust my grip at all. The PPQ's magazine release is the better of the two because it is longer and thus, slightly easier to use. However, I like both and wish more manufacturer would utilize paddles because of their superior functionality.

No update needed, except paddle release magazines should ensure better magazine retention while holstered.

Magazines: The VP9 uses the same magazines as the HK P30. From a quick look, it appears there are only 15 round magazines available for the P30/VP9. The PPQ has both 15 and 17 rounders available, along with Magnum Research 15 rounders that are the same as the P99 magazines, which are compatible with the PPQ and also cheaper than Walther magazines. Based on OEM magazines, Walthers are slightly cheaper; both the 15 and 17 rounders cost less than the VP9s.

No update.

Grip: I am using the small backstrap on the PPQ and small side panels and backstrap on the VP9. Other than the PPQ being slightly lighter, I am not sure I could tell the two pistols apart in hand. Both fit the hand extremely well. The texturing on the VP9 is pretty much the same as that on the PPQ, but just slightly more aggressive.

The grip ergonomics on both pistols are fantastic.

Overall: Without having fired the VP9, it is difficult to say. Both feel great in the hand. Both have very good triggers. The PPQ has been incredibly reliable. I would expect the VP9 to also be incredibly reliable based on HK's reputation.

Having fired the VP9, both pistols are very good. The trigger on the PPQ is better. However, the trigger is not dramatically better. I really like the charging supports on the VP9. I do not think one can go wrong with either. Both are fantastic pistols.

The last part is where I'm at about now. I'd like to be able to enjoy practicing with the gun and have acceptable performance with it.

I have shot a friend's 4" 9mm XDS quite a few times and my accuracy suffers comparison to the PPQ or VP9. The small size makes it difficult to get a very secure grip on the pistol. The lesser quality trigger does not help matters. My friend's XDS has even had some trigger work done. Even with the trigger work, the PPQ and VP9 triggers still blow the XDS trigger out of the water.
 
Great read @Brett I'll keep that in mind. I've never owned a gun with a paddle release, and only fired a USP with one a for a few mags. It didn't feel particularly unnatural to me.

I definitely like the idea of good parts from the factory. A $500 pistol can quickly become $1200 when we start replacing sights, triggers, and adding lights. The VP9 and FNS seem to avoid this according to the internet.

I'm going to go to a shop this weekend and really test the grip on some compacts. If I can find one that I really like or at least rule a couple bad ones out, I'll be happy.
 
I own and concealed carry a M&P Shield9.

The gun itself shoots a lot like a regular M&P, except with a bit more recoil and the slides are quite a bit stiffer. Same 3-dot sights as the M&P. The trigger is the same unfortunate M&P mush, but there are reasonable trigger kits out there that significantly improves the feel.

The Shield is a single stack and in 9mm is a 7+1, but it comes with an extended mag with grip extension that sticks out the bottom and will do 8+1. The grip itself is pretty short, and for a lot of people using the 7 round magazine, their pinky will either be pretty squished with the other fingers, or it will end up floating. The 8 round mag is big enough for most people to rest all their fingers on the grip. The mag release button is thumb operated, and is easily accessible even with small hands.

Otherwise, the gun is a fairly standard semi-auto handgun affair, but there is one feature that I particularly like: manual thumb safety. Some people like it, some people don’t. I always carry loaded and with one in the chamber, and I like that piece of mind.

For me, the biggest attraction of the Shield for me is its size. I’m a fairly slender person, and I need something that is easily concealable even when I’m just wearing a t-shirt in the summer. Sure, in the winter, with multiple layers and a jacket, I can concealed carry a full size without even being close to printing. I can’t pull that off in the summer though. For reference, I carry IWB at around 4-4:30 o’clock, though it’s small enough that I can fit it in jacket pockets. I’ve found that the two most important dimensions are height (grip length) and thickness, and I’m built just thin enough that for many compacts, it’s not easy to carry without printing with light, non-baggy clothing. It’s surprising what 1/4 inch here and there will do to concealability. Also, with it being a polymer subcompact, it’s light enough that it practically disappears on your hip.

I really like the M&P Shield. It’s only downfall really is a meh trigger, and people want more than 7 (or 8)+1 in a 9mm package. But it fits my needs and is incredibly concealable.

If the Glock 19 fits you, and you like the grip angle, you can’t go wrong with one. I personally dislike how it feels. Have you looked at the subcompact Glock 26? It’s slightly wider but shorter than the Shield, and will still carry 10+1 rounds. Also, remember that a good holster really impacts comfort and concealability too. You’ll probably have to play around with different combinations to find a good fit.
 
Tried the .22lr at 100 meters / 110yds again, not so awesome but I got all the groups down to 1 MOA, which is a start.
Yes, those are 6 shot groups. I forget how to count when I'm freezing. :dunce:

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I own and concealed carry a M&P Shield9.

The gun itself shoots a lot like a regular M&P, except with a bit more recoil and the slides are quite a bit stiffer. Same 3-dot sights as the M&P. The trigger is the same unfortunate M&P mush, but there are reasonable trigger kits out there that significantly improves the feel.

The Shield is a single stack and in 9mm is a 7+1, but it comes with an extended mag with grip extension that sticks out the bottom and will do 8+1. The grip itself is pretty short, and for a lot of people using the 7 round magazine, their pinky will either be pretty squished with the other fingers, or it will end up floating. The 8 round mag is big enough for most people to rest all their fingers on the grip. The mag release button is thumb operated, and is easily accessible even with small hands.

Otherwise, the gun is a fairly standard semi-auto handgun affair, but there is one feature that I particularly like: manual thumb safety. Some people like it, some people don’t. I always carry loaded and with one in the chamber, and I like that piece of mind.

For me, the biggest attraction of the Shield for me is its size. I’m a fairly slender person, and I need something that is easily concealable even when I’m just wearing a t-shirt in the summer. Sure, in the winter, with multiple layers and a jacket, I can concealed carry a full size without even being close to printing. I can’t pull that off in the summer though. For reference, I carry IWB at around 4-4:30 o’clock, though it’s small enough that I can fit it in jacket pockets. I’ve found that the two most important dimensions are height (grip length) and thickness, and I’m built just thin enough that for many compacts, it’s not easy to carry without printing with light, non-baggy clothing. It’s surprising what 1/4 inch here and there will do to concealability. Also, with it being a polymer subcompact, it’s light enough that it practically disappears on your hip.

I really like the M&P Shield. It’s only downfall really is a meh trigger, and people want more than 7 (or 8)+1 in a 9mm package. But it fits my needs and is incredibly concealable.

If the Glock 19 fits you, and you like the grip angle, you can’t go wrong with one. I personally dislike how it feels. Have you looked at the subcompact Glock 26? It’s slightly wider but shorter than the Shield, and will still carry 10+1 rounds. Also, remember that a good holster really impacts comfort and concealability too. You’ll probably have to play around with different combinations to find a good fit.

Great review of the Shield! Definitely helpful.

On the Glock 26, if I go full subcompact I figure I'll go single stack.
 
I went to the range yesterday with a co-worker. I put 100 rounds through the VP9 and 100 rounds the 10/22. It was also the first time I had shot the 10/22. That thing is a whole lot of fun to shoot. The factory iron sights pretty much suck. Not a huge deal, I mounted the Bushnell TRS-25 on the Ruger I picked up during the winter sales.
 
I paint the sights of my guns if the contrast is too low. I use metallic red nail polish on the front sight. I polish the front sight down until I get a shining bright metal surface, paint it with the red polish, three layers. Its visible enough to make the sights usable at any light condition except in nighttime of course, and if I aim at a black target I can see the bright front sight perfectly. Never had a problem with the contrast of the rear sights so they stay black on my guns.
 
I forgot all about it, and Michael would remember this, but I didn't like the front sight on my Kimber 1911 either(Custom Target II). I painted the back of the front sight red, and I haven't had any issues with it since. 👍
 
I do remember it, it looked really nice and professional!

Has anyone here already heard about the inbound 5.56 M885 ball ammo ban because its considered armor piercing? Sounds like banning is in fashion again.

I know this is simply a very blatant attack on the AR-15, but they're not even trying with their official reasoning for that ban. I mean, shooting people outside of self defense is already outlawed, so they want to make another law in case somebody breaks the first law?
 
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I do remember it, it looked really nice and professional!
Thank you! Actually, I think the paint may be starting to fade off around the edges slightly, but still 100% effective. :P
Has anyone here already heard about the inbound 5.56 M885 ball ammo ban because its considered armor piercing? Sounds like banning is in fashion again.

I know this is simply a very blatant attack on the AR-15, but they're not even trying with their official reasoning for that ban. I mean, shooting people outside of self defense is already outlawed, so they want to make another law in case somebody breaks the first law?
I have zero knowledge on the round, or the ban. While googling, I have learned: 1) Foreign nationals were banned from owning handguns in Massachusetts. I believe that this was turned around in the Federal Court. 2) People argue over the effectiveness of 7.62/.308 in AR versus 5.56/.223.

So, yeah. I still know very little about the ban. :lol:
 
On the M855 ordeal. Yes, it's an obvious attack on the AR15 and similar rifles. If they were truly concerned about armor piercing ammo then they would have to ban the dozens of higher caliber rounds that have better penetration than M855.

However, market this ban as MILITARY GRADE COP KILLERS TAKEN AWAY FROM HOMEBREWED TERRORISTS and you can slowly start to make shooting a less viable hobby, similar to the huge taxes some places have put on smoking.

Whatever, it'll probably get defeated. I can't wait for the huge sell-off that'll happen in a few months when people stop panic buying.

I went to the range yesterday with a co-worker. I put 100 rounds through the VP9 and 100 rounds the 10/22. It was also the first time I had shot the 10/22. That thing is a whole lot of fun to shoot. The factory iron sights pretty much suck. Not a huge deal, I mounted the Bushnell TRS-25 on the Ruger I picked up during the winter sales.

I've heard this about the VP9. Luckily Trijicon is making a set for them.

I'm actually getting more interested in the VP9. It's almost like the BMW 3 series to the Glock's Toyota Camry. Have you tried carrying this IWB?

There's a pretty long list of potential guns. I should really thin this out.

G19, M&P9C, M&P Shield in 9, FNS9C, VP9, P30, Kahr CW9, PPQ, CZ P07.

I think it's time to break out the spreadsheets...
 
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Is the FNS9C the only gun that's completely ambidextrous all the time? I may finally get one now that they released the compact. It's important to me that I can use the gun with either hand at any time without having to change anything.
 
I've heard this about the VP9. Luckily Trijicon is making a set for them.

I'm actually getting more interested in the VP9. It's almost like the BMW 3 series to the Glock's Toyota Camry. Have you tried carrying this IWB?

There's a pretty long list of potential guns. I should really thin this out.

G19, M&P9C, M&P Shield in 9, FNS9C, VP9, P30, Kahr CW9, PPQ, CZ P07.

I think it's time to break out the spreadsheets...

Trijicon already has sights for the VP9. The P30 sights will drop in just fine. VP9 magazines are also the same as the P30 magazines.

I have not tried carrying the thing IWB.

Is the FNS9C the only gun that's completely ambidextrous all the time? I may finally get one now that they released the compact. It's important to me that I can use the gun with either hand at any time without having to change anything.

Are you asking about just compact pistols? Either way, the answer is no. In just compacts, HK makes the HK45C, P2000, and P2000 SK. If other sizes are included, then the VP9, HK45, P30, and P30L. The M1 version of the PPQ is fully ambidextrous. Outside of those, I would have to do some looking. I am only really familiar with the two brands.

Come on HK, release a VP45.
 
Yeah but those all have paddle releases. I still haven't actually used one so I don't know whether it would be acceptable.
 
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