Real Guns

[coryclifford]

Finding 44 Mag

$70 for 40!

 

[Xavier2342]

This past weekend Sig Sauer hosted Sig Freedom Days here in Arizona at Ben Avery Shooting Facility. I only attended the event on Friday but I really enjoyed this event. While I was there I got to shoot the following guns: Cross PRS, Cross 6.5, 716i Tread, MCX Speer (6.5 CM), MPX SBR, P226 Pro, P229 Legion (maybe Pro), Mossberg 590A1 and Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical. I also got to shoot a crossbow from Xpedition Archery but I don't recall which model it was. There were many more firearms to shoot but these were the firearms I chose to shoot due to personal time constraints.

On April 15th I found out about this event from the Youtube channel Legally Armed American and immediately purchased my ticket. Sadly, by the time I purchased my ticket there weren't any spots available to shoot machine guns were full. On the day of the event there were SO many people there. There are tons of firearm enthusiasts in Arizona but there were also a lot of people in attendance who flew in from out of state just to attend this event. I truly hope this event was a success for Sig Sauer because it would be nice to see them as well as other manufacturers host more events like this that are open to the public. I love the fact that Sig Sauer chose to take their show on the road to get their products in the hands of the consumers.

Something else I got to experience while at this event was Sig Sauer's SIERRA6BDX series scopes connected to their Kilo3000BDX binocular. What's cool about this binocular is how it functions as a rangefinder and ballistics calculator when connected via Bluetooth to a compatible Sig Sauer scope. Rather than me making an even longer post about these binocular, check out this short video.



Back to the firearms... The Cross PRS was just announced today and I thought it was pretty cool of Sig Sauer to allow us to shoot this rifle before it was officially released to the public. Given the current trend of having lighter more lethal firearms, the weight of the MCX Spear caught my by surprise. In regards to the AR platform, I understand that gas piston ARs are usually heavier than their direct impingement counterparts. I also understand that the 6.8x51 is superior to the 5.56x45. But the MCX Spear in general as a M4 replacement, dang that is a heavy rifle 😄. Shooting the Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical with a red dot sight will put a smile on anyone's face. The 716i Tread would be great for hog hunting in Texas. I can go on and on about the other firearms I was able to shoot. But in all honesty, I enjoyed shooting them all and I think I want a crossbow 😄.

I hope all is well with everyone. Now that the weather is getting warmer, I hope you're all able to get out to the range some time soon.

 

[Michael88]

I also understand that the 6.8x51 is superior to the 5.56x45. But the MCX Spear in general as a M4 replacement, dang that is a heavy rifle 😄.

I'm conflicted about the 6.8x51. ballistically it is superior to 7.62x51 and 5.56, but I read through its specs and turns out it runs at 33% more pressure than any other rifle round, hence the 2-piece brass case design. I then calculated the numbers using the barrel life calculator and it turns out the barrel is done in about 1300 rounds. You might say but yeah, for ''military precision'' its good for 2000 rounds, but remember the 6.8x51 was designed for accuracy at extended ranges.

I get it that the ballistics are nice, but choosing a total barrel burner as general issue cartridge makes no sense in my book. 1300 rounds is less barrel life than that of a .300 Winchester Magnum, which is regarded as an overbore barrel burner. And now imagine that cartridge full auto in LMG's etc.

And the best thing of it all is that the ballistics are matched by a hunting cartridge from the late 1920's, the .270 Winchester. Exact same projectile diameter, same velocity, normal pressures, normal brass case but only the case is 13mm longer.
In the end the new innovative amazing 6.8 is nothing than a slightly shortened hot hunting cartridge. And they probably spent millions on designing it.

I don't get it. If I was in charge of armaments I'd have made the flechette rounds work, you know, from the test trials in the early 90's. Cartridges using 5.56 brass that shoot what's basically a miniature fin stabilized tungsten dart anti tank round at 5000 fp/s. Ballistics that exceeds any rifle round by a megaton (I remember it had basically zero drop out to 350 yards, just point and shoot), enormous armor penetration capabilities, very little drop at long ranges, fired from simple unrifled barrels.

 

[Xavier2342]

I'm conflicted about the 6.8x51. ballistically it is superior to 7.62x51 and 5.56, but I read through its specs and turns out it runs at 33% more pressure than any other rifle round, hence the 2-piece brass case design. I then calculated the numbers using the barrel life calculator and it turns out the barrel is done in about 1300 rounds. You might say but yeah, for ''military precision'' its good for 2000 rounds, but remember the 6.8x51 was designed for accuracy at extended ranges.

I get it that the ballistics are nice, but choosing a total barrel burner as general issue cartridge makes no sense in my book. 1300 rounds is less barrel life than that of a .300 Winchester Magnum, which is regarded as an overbore barrel burner. And now imagine that cartridge full auto in LMG's etc.

And the best thing of it all is that the ballistics are matched by a hunting cartridge from the late 1920's, the .270 Winchester. Exact same projectile diameter, same velocity, normal pressures, normal brass case but only the case is 13mm longer.
In the end the new innovative amazing 6.8 is nothing than a slightly shortened hot hunting cartridge. And they probably spent millions on designing it.

I don't get it. If I was in charge of armaments I'd have made the flechette rounds work, you know, from the test trials in the early 90's. Cartridges using 5.56 brass that shoot what's basically a miniature fin stabilized tungsten dart anti tank round at 5000 fp/s. Ballistics that exceeds any rifle round by a megaton (I remember it had basically zero drop out to 350 yards, just point and shoot), enormous armor penetration capabilities, very little drop at long ranges, fired from simple unrifled barrels.

Over the past few days I've been thinking about everything you've stated in your post in regards to the MCX Spear and the 6.8x51 round. I already dislike the fact that they're transitioning to a heavier, longer rifle with lower ammo capacity. I understand that there are other military units around the world that carry heavier rifles. But to some extent I can't help but to feel as if we're taking a step back. I also find the barrel life extremely disturbing especially when think about situations that require full-auto suppressive fire. For the sake of NATO, why couldn't they put more effort into improving the ballistics of the 7.62x51. Speaking of which, how do the ballistics of the 6.8x51 compare to 7.62x51? Oddly enough, this video showed up on my YouTube feed a few days ago.

 

[Michael88]

Over the past few days I've been thinking about everything you've stated in your post in regards to the MCX Spear and the 6.8x51 round. I already dislike the fact that they're transitioning to a heavier, longer rifle with lower ammo capacity. I understand that there are other military units around the world that carry heavier rifles. But to some extent I can't help but to feel as if we're taking a step back. I also find the barrel life extremely disturbing especially when think about situations that require full-auto suppressive fire. For the sake of NATO, why couldn't they put more effort into improving the ballistics of the 7.62x51. Speaking of which, how do the ballistics of the 6.8x51 compare to 7.62x51? Oddly enough, this video showed up on my YouTube feed a few days ago.

Good video. They have sacrificed too much and went completely overboard for just getting a little more downrange energy.

Also, another downfall of the weapon system is, as mentioned in the video, ammunition capacity. Heavy rifle means carrying less ammunition. Heavier ammo means carrying less ammunition. 20 rounds instead of 30 round magazines means less cadence and effectiveness at closer rangers. So, basically, at closer ranges your enemy with 30 round magazines and carrying more ammunition is going to whoop your butt in terms of firepower and he is going to stay longer in the fight.
That does not sound like progress to me and I'm pretty sure that none of the NATO members is going to switch to this round / weapons platform.

Talking about precision and 7.63x51, I had some fun at the range today. First time I shot IPSC half size targets with my precision rifle. I did some center mass shots as well but then decided the gun is too precise not to go go for head only.
Shot from bipod only, no sandbags.

 

[Michael88]

Does anybody still remember the problem I had with my Glock Gen3 G17 barrel, with material breaking off at the throat after only 700 rounds through? Which I then replaced with a new barrel? Well, my Glock 41 .45 is having the exact same problem now, after - you guessed it- around 700 shots through. This is crazy, Glock is having some serious issues with their barrel production.

Just cleaned the barrel thoroughly and took this pic:

 

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 you don't have the best of luck with firearms. What kind of ammo were you shooting? I don't remember, but was your Glock 41 brand new when you purchased it? Also what barrelmare you going to replace the factory barrel with?

 

[Michael88]

@Michael88 you don't have the best of luck with firearms. What kind of ammo were you shooting? I don't remember, but was your Glock 41 brand new when you purchased it? Also what barrelmare you going to replace the factory barrel with?

Yeah I know, my luck with pistols is legendary. But only with pistols for some weird reason. Yes, this is a brand new gun, 700 rounds through. I was only using run off the mill S&B 230 grain FMJ and some mild reloads with N340 and 230 grain FMJ's, nothing that could even remotely induce damage like that.

I have already ordered a custom barrel for the Glock, we have a manufacturer that is specialized in replacement barrels not far from here. I ordered one with traditional rifling (not the polygonal profile like Glock) so I can shoot lead bullets as well if I feel like it, and I ordered it with a matte-gold finish because why not.

Most of my friends say I worry too much and I should just shoot the damn thing but is it really too much to ask for a service pistol that does not disintegrate its own barrel under a thousand shots? I think not.
If I could afford having 20 pistols then it would probably not matter so much to me, but my funds are limited so the few guns I have must be in good shape.

 

[Brett]

I collected all of the colors like they were Pokemon:

 

[Michael88]

Any plans to spray paint one? Then you can have all the colors!

 

[Brett]

Maybe. I have not given it much thought one way or the other.

 

[Michael88]

Went to the range today, with my evil 20'' AR-15.

I really enjoyed shooting it standing offhand unsupported at 50 and 100 meters, and that fast as well. I think offhand shooting is the most important practice, yet people seem to do it very rarly, especially beyond 25 meters.

Here my 10 shot group standing offhand at 50 meters, completely fugged the last shot at 8 o'clock. Shot with a 1-6x LPVO (Dialed down to zero magnification) A bit low because AR sight offset, sighted in at 100.

 

[Michael88]

Been thinking really hard about getting body armor - I always thought about it as a needless expense, even for home defense scenarios. But now with the ever dwindling economy and security worldwide, especially here in Europe now with the biggest war since WWII raging only a 5 hours drive away from my place, I have started considering getting armor again.

Problem is, its expensive. Rifle rated body armor costs about 600-1000 bucks (SAPI composite plates, not steel plates), I most likely would never need it and it would only sit there and collect dust in my closet. And still, if you get hit in the thigh, neck, side or face you will still keel over.

What is you opinion on body armor? Do you have armor?

 

[TB]

Since I don't own any guns and have previously never fired any, this will almost certainly be my only contribution to this thread.

On Tuesday my son and I went to Machine Gun Vegas and popped of a few rounds from 4 different guns - a Glock 17, MP5, M4 and an AK-47.









The AK stings. My shoulder hurt for the next 2 days.

 

[BloodRaven]

Been thinking really hard about getting body armor - I always thought about it as a needless expense, even for home defense scenarios. But now with the ever dwindling economy and security worldwide, especially here in Europe now with the biggest war since WWII raging only a 5 hours drive away from my place, I have started considering getting armor again.

Problem is, its expensive. Rifle rated body armor costs about 600-1000 bucks (SAPI composite plates, not steel plates), I most likely would never need it and it would only sit there and collect dust in my closet. And still, if you get hit in the thigh, neck, side or face you will still keel over.

What is you opinion on body armor? Do you have armor?

I bought a PC w/plates a couple years ago. I got standard Level III steel plates. I need to get another set and go with the XL size. I'm a big guy and wasn't thinking about it when I ordered the first one. It's a bit small, but would do if it's all I had. At the time, it was on sale and I also got a "!st time buyer" coupon for another 10% off. So I paid less than $300 for the PC and plates (front, back, 2 sides). It's ready to go if needed and I can have it on and my rifle ready in less than a minute. The only thing I have on it is a triple AR mag pouch, a med kit, and a multitool. I need to get another flashlight and put on it. I had one, but it stopped working and I haven't replaced it, yet. I need to get on that, ASAP.

 

[Obelisk]

Since I don't own any guns and have previously never fired any, this will almost certainly be my only contribution to this thread.

On Tuesday my son and I went to Machine Gun Vegas and popped of a few rounds from 4 different guns - a Glock 17, MP5, M4 and an AK-47.









The AK stings. My shoulder hurt for the next 2 days.

I see short bursts and relatively solid muzzle control. For two beginners, this is a really well done shooting session. Especially with three fully automatic weapons. 👍

Update on the grandfather's weapons situation:
We're going down to pick up the weapons from the 15th to the 21st. Somewhere around there. We've done all the legwork we need to safely transport everything back home. The only issue that was eating at me was what on earth this old .22 was. Well, I posted it to Reddit and someone's comment led to a brief rabbit hole of looking at Sears catalogue items and...it turns out that the most likely match is a Sears Ranger 103-13 AKA Marlin Model 81. The stock is one variant that I've seen of the 103-13s from my bit of research. I'll know for sure once I have it in my hands and can see the markings.

If this turns out to be true, then it means I've inherited a Marlin rifle manufactured between 1937-1940. Certainly an interesting historical piece to go plinking with.

 

[coryclifford]

Bought a Shield Plus today. Had some deal going on. Got a total of five mags and some silly bag and a first aid kit. $35 magazines though. Yes. Not shot yet, feels good.

Tiny 9mm… 44 mag says pffft

 

[Obelisk]

View attachment 1160504

View attachment 1160505

Bought a Shield Plus today. Had some deal going on. Got a total of five mags and some silly bag and a first aid kit. $35 magazines though. Yes. Not shot yet, feels good.

Tiny 9mm… 44 mag says pffft

Nice car!

Oh, uh. The Shield looks super clean, too. 👍👍

 

[Michael88]

Decided to swap the flash suppressor of my 10.5'' AR with a Strike industries WarHog muzzle brake. They are really inexpensive and I like that they are a single-chamber design, they are SHORTER than a standard flash suppressor. I have yet to test how much recoil is reduced though.
One thing is for sure though, 10.5'' barrel .223 with a brake, its gonna be loud. As in really loud.

 

[Michael88]

Today I bought a Ruger American ranch in 5.56 Nato. Saw that rifle in the local gun store, semi-weight cold hammer forged 16'' threaded barrel, takes AR-15 magazines, picatinny rail, FDE stock and chambered for the higher pressure 556. Fell in love with it and had to buy it. I've always liked the idea of low profile ''pseudo-scout'' bolt action rifles very much, not every rifle needs to be an AR lol.

Only problem was its bolt was so rough cycling it quickly was simply not possible, the bolt felt like a couch potato, no motivation to move.

But I addressed that problem with my Dremel, a lot of polish, polished it to a mirror finish and saying that it made a night and day difference would not do it justice, the difference is just mind blowing, it easily takes like 70% less effort to cycle the bolt now. Now it feels like the bolt of a 2000 $+ match rifle and I can run that thing FAST.

Polishing:

 

[Obelisk]

Well, I got to my grandpa's house yesterday and, uh...

Someone stole his handgun. We were able to narrow it down to three people (all painters my grandma hired) and got the police involved by 6 pm yesterday. F'n awful that someone would just up and steal a pistol. I hope they recover it and send the thief to jail, but it's likely gone forever at this point. We were able to find the magazine, though.

I was able to collect the other two firearms, the 12g shotgun and the .22. Neither have serial numbers, and neither have company markings on them. I can't even begin to try and positively identify them. The shotgun seems to be in good working order and still has its hunting choke equipped, but there's a one-inch segment of wood missing right where the stock meets the back of the receiver/trigger group. The .22 is in pretty rough shape. The action and magazine have gunk built up and are rough to operate. I did learn that it's a cock-on-open bolt but...the mystery deepens.

Both guns definitely need to go to a gunsmith once I get home, and once I get everything cleared up with regards to IDing these weapons and cleaning/fixing them up, I'll have the 22 registered under my name and the 12g registered to my dad (since I already have a Stevens 320).

 

[Xavier2342]

I haven't been to the range in awhile but will be going shooting with a coworker of mine tomorrow. About a month or so ago a group of friends and I got memberships to a private gun range with a 1,000+ yard shooting bay. I'm looking forward to shooting at this range since the location my buddy Don and I use to shoot long range is quickly becoming a housing development. Plus it will just be nice to go shoot long range without needing a truck or something with high wheel clearance.

Other than that, @TB nice shooting! @coryclifford what grain are those 44 mag bullets? Nice Shield Plus by the way. @Michael88 do you have any before and after pics of the bolt? Also, bolt-action .223/5.56 👌... Cheaper and sometimes more fun to shoot than larger chambered bolt-action rifles. @Obelisk I'm sorry to hear about your Grandpa's handgun being stolen, I hope it gets returned to you guys.

 

[coryclifford]

@Xavier2342

.44 mag
Underwood Xtreme Penetrator 220 grain
Underwood Wad cutter 255 grain
Hornady XTP 240 grain

Fairly light, fairly fast. They’ll be coming out of a 20” barrel when the Henry lever is operating.

 

[Obelisk]

I have an interesting update on the guns I did manage to retrieve from my grandfather (God bless his soul wherever it is).

The shotgun that we inherited is a Sears-Roebuck Model 21 "Ted Williams", AKA High Standard Model 20. There is no serial, so this is early to mid '60s. It's catalogue number #583.2025, which means it's a High Standard model 20, but fancy by Sears standards. There's a chunk missing right where the stock meets the receiver and the front of the bolt is caked in cat hair for some reason. The gun seems to be in pretty good condition for something that's been in a closet for a while. The pump runs, but has a bit of resistance in the middle (my hunch is old grease) and the trigger/safety are working correctly. Good trigger break, firing pin and spring sound like they're in great shape.

Spoiler: Model 21

And for our mystery .22, I actually was able to find the markings on closer inspection today and confirmed my initial guess. The .22 is a JC Higgins 103-13, AKA Marlin Model 81.

This gun is definitely showing signs of being a 90 year old rifle. While everything seems to be in really good shape, the internals are all gunked up from, I'm assuming, dried out grease/grime. The internals all work correctly - the bolt is cock-on-open and will cycle with a bit of effort, the tube magazine opens and closes as needed and it has a very light trigger break. The safety is really, really gunked up and won't move very far from the "fire" position, so the thing basically needs a very detailed cleaning and oiling. But damn, it's still in good shape for a 1937-1940 vintage rifle.

Spoiler: 103-13

Now to figure out what distances the rear sight is graduated in. I'm assuming yards since it's an American rifle, but I don't know how far out each step is.

Both guns are basically in a state where they could fire a few rounds without issue, but have enough minor mechanical gremlins that I wouldn't trust holding or using them. When I bring them home this week, we're going to talk to our gunsmith and have them looked at, cleaned & anything else that's needed to get them in good working order.

 

[Obelisk]

Another update:
A cousin of my dad happened to have a .25 ACP Sterling pistol that originally belonged to my late grandfather and gave it to us yesterday. It's a Sterling 300, I think, and is just barely new enough to have a serial number (meaning easy registration under my name) but also old enough that, y'know, it's in .25 ACP. It's a heavy little thing, and it's super clean. No pictures as I didn't get a chance to actually sit down and document it, but I'll share some stuff later.

Additionally, our family friend has a SxS, external hammer shotgun that has been in his family for (very likely) over a century and has told both my dad and I that he wants to give it to me as an inheritance. I'm genuinely surprised at how quick people were to offer these guns to us, and I'm kinda excited to see what this side-by-side is. Does anyone know if it's possible to register a gun that does not have a serial number? The Model 21 and 103-13 from my last post are old enough that they don't have those #s.

 

[BloodRaven]

Today I bought a Ruger American ranch in 5.56 Nato. Saw that rifle in the local gun store, semi-weight cold hammer forged 16'' threaded barrel, takes AR-15 magazines, picatinny rail, FDE stock and chambered for the higher pressure 556. Fell in love with it and had to buy it. I've always liked the idea of low profile ''pseudo-scout'' bolt action rifles very much, not every rifle needs to be an AR lol.

Only problem was its bolt was so rough cycling it quickly was simply not possible, the bolt felt like a couch potato, no motivation to move.

But I addressed that problem with my Dremel, a lot of polish, polished it to a mirror finish and saying that it made a night and day difference would not do it justice, the difference is just mind blowing, it easily takes like 70% less effort to cycle the bolt now. Now it feels like the bolt of a 2000 $+ match rifle and I can run that thing FAST.

Polishing:

View attachment 1161349

I could probably stand to do that to my bolt-action. It cycles fine, but being a touch more easy would do wonders for my speed. I may get on that this weekend.

 

[Michael88]

I could probably stand to do that to my bolt-action. It cycles fine, but being a touch more easy would do wonders for my speed. I may get on that this weekend.

I can wholeheartedly recommend trying it out. Just use a fine metal polishing compound and the dremel tool with one of these felt polishing disks. I don't think I have to mention it, but don't touch the locking lug surfaces, does not take much to increase headspacing - some people do that anyway, not a good idea.

What action are you going to polish? Some actions are so good out of the box, I think they cannot be improved - but the actions of the more ''budget'' oriented rifles, like the Ruger American etc. are pretty rough out of the box. Its not a bad action they simply did not polish it to save costs. You just have to finish it, lol.

Man, now I want to buy another Ruger American. Those rifles are cheap, really cool and make great project guns -

 

[Michael88]

So I shot my 10.5'' AR with the warhog muzzle brake installed and I have to say I am very impressed. I would say recoil is reduced by 1/3rd, the muzzle is much less jumpy now. People always say a brake on a SBR makes the gun unbearably loud and blast-ey, I have to say I didn't care at all. I got good earmuffs and that took care of that. But yeah, on the shooting bench stuff that was near the muzzle was flung into the air, lol. But again, don't care.

I can imagine that beginners not used to shooting a lot of guns would have an extra hard time with the brake on an SBR. But practice takes care of that.

I can totally recommend getting one of those brakes, they work.

 

[Michael88]

Went to the shooting range today, a friend gave me one of his large burglar-targets so I shot that with my G17 at 25 meters, very quickly. Pretty happy with the group, but I cannot explain that one flier at 12 o clock.



Also shot my .357 with my own hand loads, 6 shots at 25 meters. I only used double action, no single action. Interestingly it makes no difference in accuracy whether I shoot it single or double.

 

[Obelisk]

Went to the shooting range today, a friend gave me one of his large burglar-targets so I shot that with my G17 at 25 meters, very quickly. Pretty happy with the group, but I cannot explain that one flier at 12 o clock.


View attachment 1172831
Also shot my .357 with my own hand loads, 6 shots at 25 meters. I only used double action, no single action. Interestingly it makes no difference in accuracy whether I shoot it single or double.

View attachment 1172836

Great groupings.

I forgot about this thread until I saw this notification, so figured I'd update.

The .25 that was given to the family is a Sterling 300, and it's running pretty well all things considered. The only gripes I have are that it's got no zeroing on it (all hits on paper are 6 in to a foot to the left of where I was aiming) and the magazine seems a little out of sorts as I've had about 4 failures to feed, two of which damaged the cartridges.

I'm waiting to hear back from a local gunsmith on the Sears guns' cleaning. He told me that we're gonna have to replace the stock on the shotgun as it'd be more expensive to repair the missing chunk.