real life experiences
- Thread starter Luwee
- 65 comments
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- Douglasville, G
- BlackStig
Please note that what I say makes people angry, not because I TRY to make people angry, but because I'm almost right almost 100 percent of the time!
I used to host a school out of New York while I lived up there and I also held instruction sessions while living in Virginia. I currently live in Georgia and hold events in the south east, but for you I know a few road-race instructors that you may want to get in touch with.
Sideways is not drifting, I can get into my teammate's Civic and get it sideways, it's not drifting, but it's sideways.
If you're driving ANY car and it takes longer for the MANUAL transmission to reach a certain speed than the AUTOMATIC, then you need assistance with your driving. Manual transmission versions of MOST cars are 10-15 percent FASTER in acceleration AND top speed. This is due to the fact that MOST automatic cars have 4 speeds while the manuals almost always have 5 or more. The only time when this changes rules is when you're dealing with one of the following situations.
---A stock manual vs a tuned automatic transmission (example, a 0-Slip Torque Converter on a Drag Car vs a 5-Speed Manual, the zero slip engages the clutches faster than any human can shift, especially if you factor in a computer tuning)
---Diesel trucks with 6 wheels or more. Most of those are built for torque and not horsepower and the transmissions (automatics) are built to shift as soon as you've exceeded the torque band of that specific gear. Once exceeded, the transmission allows for instance of torque shift (when your RPMS drop by shifting into the next gear) and it will calculate where the torque will best be picked up. The formula for it is trigonometry so I won't bother with the theatrics
---Gear boxes that are designed for paddle shifting. These are similar to the Powerline Drag Transmission in which they do NOT have a torque converter but a device that hydraulically or pneumatically actuates a CLUTCH with just enough degree that it can quickly an smoothly disengage and reengage the torque to the transmission.
The effect YOU are referring to when you said "Hitting the gas and having your parents Grand Prix go to 3,000 rpms before it starts to move" is caused by the torque converter, not by any magical automatic transmission ferries. The torque converter takes the momentum of spinning in a HIGH VISCOSITY fluid and spins a heavy center piece, the actual torque converter, this, after rotating for a very short period, will then deliver the torque to the engine.
www.howstuffworks.com is your best friend, use it.
It's basically like having a bucket with a few ice cubes in the center. If you stir along the outside, the water moves but the cubes don't move until the torque (or the force that acts on an object to cause it to rotate) reaches the cubes from the water rotating.
Your parents Grand Prix is probably also faster than your Civic Si because the Honda motors are NOT designed with torque in mind, they are built for the horsepower (or that it would take for 1 horse to lift one metric ton one foot in one minute) range, therefore, anything below that horsepower range (which on MOST VTEC engines isn't until well above 6,000 RPM) the engine isn't at it's full potential.
Keep in mind that ALSO, with a torque converter, you lose FAR MORE horsepower AND torque than you would then if you had a direct-drive (or manual transmission) setup.
You DO know that bhp and whp are two separate numbers right?
With that in mind, automatics, on average, net about 10 percent LESS horsepower and torque than manual transmissions do.
So why are automatics and sequential automatics run in drag and other forms of top-end motorsports? Simple . . .consistency. A drag racer can run a certain time, more frequent, and with fewer mistakes if he's not the one doing the shifting, which is why professional motorsport drivers who partake in events such as rally, road race and time trials, will say that drag racing isn't actual driving. It's not a competition of the drivers but a competition of the mechanics. This holds true all the way until you reach the sub 9.4 second brackets. To control a car that can run 9.03.xxx in a single quarter-mile stretch is tasking, even for professional drivers such as myself. But that's neither here nor there.
Most of the other motorsports will have something called a sequential automatic, tiptronic or manumatic transmission. These are one of three things.
1) They're automatic transmissions with a manual override option. These are common in MOST production cars (non-sports or exotic) and in some low-end motorsport cars.
2) Sequential Manual Transmissions with automatic clutches. These are almost exclusively used in Formula racing and in certain exotic cars such as the Ferrari F430 and the Aston Martin DB9.
3) Clutch-Driven Standard Automatics. Discussed above, most Formula D and D1 cars that have sequential or steptronic transmissions are using this setup.
If anyone has any questions, do not hesitate to ask, I'll check back and answer.
-Stig
I used to host a school out of New York while I lived up there and I also held instruction sessions while living in Virginia. I currently live in Georgia and hold events in the south east, but for you I know a few road-race instructors that you may want to get in touch with.
Sideways is not drifting, I can get into my teammate's Civic and get it sideways, it's not drifting, but it's sideways.
Actually automatic cars just switch to a lower gear possible when you punch the gas,thats why in car and driver the manul cars take longer than the automtics. Like if im driving my parents grand prix gt you can hit this gay before your even moving the motor will go to about 3,000 rpm, then will take off like a rocket, but if im driving the civic si, you have to realese the clutch get it moving then can punch the gas but once you hit 3,500 rpm thing just takes off like a rocket.
If you're driving ANY car and it takes longer for the MANUAL transmission to reach a certain speed than the AUTOMATIC, then you need assistance with your driving. Manual transmission versions of MOST cars are 10-15 percent FASTER in acceleration AND top speed. This is due to the fact that MOST automatic cars have 4 speeds while the manuals almost always have 5 or more. The only time when this changes rules is when you're dealing with one of the following situations.
---A stock manual vs a tuned automatic transmission (example, a 0-Slip Torque Converter on a Drag Car vs a 5-Speed Manual, the zero slip engages the clutches faster than any human can shift, especially if you factor in a computer tuning)
---Diesel trucks with 6 wheels or more. Most of those are built for torque and not horsepower and the transmissions (automatics) are built to shift as soon as you've exceeded the torque band of that specific gear. Once exceeded, the transmission allows for instance of torque shift (when your RPMS drop by shifting into the next gear) and it will calculate where the torque will best be picked up. The formula for it is trigonometry so I won't bother with the theatrics
---Gear boxes that are designed for paddle shifting. These are similar to the Powerline Drag Transmission in which they do NOT have a torque converter but a device that hydraulically or pneumatically actuates a CLUTCH with just enough degree that it can quickly an smoothly disengage and reengage the torque to the transmission.
The effect YOU are referring to when you said "Hitting the gas and having your parents Grand Prix go to 3,000 rpms before it starts to move" is caused by the torque converter, not by any magical automatic transmission ferries. The torque converter takes the momentum of spinning in a HIGH VISCOSITY fluid and spins a heavy center piece, the actual torque converter, this, after rotating for a very short period, will then deliver the torque to the engine.
www.howstuffworks.com is your best friend, use it.
It's basically like having a bucket with a few ice cubes in the center. If you stir along the outside, the water moves but the cubes don't move until the torque (or the force that acts on an object to cause it to rotate) reaches the cubes from the water rotating.
Your parents Grand Prix is probably also faster than your Civic Si because the Honda motors are NOT designed with torque in mind, they are built for the horsepower (or that it would take for 1 horse to lift one metric ton one foot in one minute) range, therefore, anything below that horsepower range (which on MOST VTEC engines isn't until well above 6,000 RPM) the engine isn't at it's full potential.
Keep in mind that ALSO, with a torque converter, you lose FAR MORE horsepower AND torque than you would then if you had a direct-drive (or manual transmission) setup.
You DO know that bhp and whp are two separate numbers right?
With that in mind, automatics, on average, net about 10 percent LESS horsepower and torque than manual transmissions do.
So why are automatics and sequential automatics run in drag and other forms of top-end motorsports? Simple . . .consistency. A drag racer can run a certain time, more frequent, and with fewer mistakes if he's not the one doing the shifting, which is why professional motorsport drivers who partake in events such as rally, road race and time trials, will say that drag racing isn't actual driving. It's not a competition of the drivers but a competition of the mechanics. This holds true all the way until you reach the sub 9.4 second brackets. To control a car that can run 9.03.xxx in a single quarter-mile stretch is tasking, even for professional drivers such as myself. But that's neither here nor there.
Most of the other motorsports will have something called a sequential automatic, tiptronic or manumatic transmission. These are one of three things.
1) They're automatic transmissions with a manual override option. These are common in MOST production cars (non-sports or exotic) and in some low-end motorsport cars.
2) Sequential Manual Transmissions with automatic clutches. These are almost exclusively used in Formula racing and in certain exotic cars such as the Ferrari F430 and the Aston Martin DB9.
3) Clutch-Driven Standard Automatics. Discussed above, most Formula D and D1 cars that have sequential or steptronic transmissions are using this setup.
If anyone has any questions, do not hesitate to ask, I'll check back and answer.
-Stig
- 782
- Douglasville, G
- BlackStig
But thats a moot point, because I'm willing to put a guess that you're doing 1 of 2 things:
1) You're rolling into the turn, slamming the throttle and fish-tailing through about half of the turn. Not a drift, this is what my dad does in his muscle car when he wants to show off the torque.
2) You're in a parking lot, you cut the wheel, mash the throttle, turn the wheel the other way and slide sideways in a parking lot. On this one, it's debatable, but I'm with the other instructors and drifters on this one when I say that drifting in a parking lot ISN'T actually drifting. Yes you're sideways and it's a decent way to start off, but you're sideways with no direction, no control, most people don't take into account that when you're actually drifting, whether you do it legally on a track or illegally on a mountain road, there is steering involved with the front wheels and slip-angular momentum of the rear of the vehicle.
True there is a drift truck, so trucks CAN drift, but that vehicle was modified pretty extensively to conform with the rule set of American class drifting. I've never been drifting in the U.K but D1 holds the events and I've had the displeasure of working a D1 event so I know how their rules go.
-Stig
1) You're rolling into the turn, slamming the throttle and fish-tailing through about half of the turn. Not a drift, this is what my dad does in his muscle car when he wants to show off the torque.
2) You're in a parking lot, you cut the wheel, mash the throttle, turn the wheel the other way and slide sideways in a parking lot. On this one, it's debatable, but I'm with the other instructors and drifters on this one when I say that drifting in a parking lot ISN'T actually drifting. Yes you're sideways and it's a decent way to start off, but you're sideways with no direction, no control, most people don't take into account that when you're actually drifting, whether you do it legally on a track or illegally on a mountain road, there is steering involved with the front wheels and slip-angular momentum of the rear of the vehicle.
True there is a drift truck, so trucks CAN drift, but that vehicle was modified pretty extensively to conform with the rule set of American class drifting. I've never been drifting in the U.K but D1 holds the events and I've had the displeasure of working a D1 event so I know how their rules go.
-Stig
Joey D
Premium
- 47,364
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
I don't know I could control it decently enough and I didn't spin out while exiting. I don't do it anymore unless it's snowed because it was way to hard on the tires and pretty much everything else.
There is a drift S-10, someone posted a video of it somewhere in one of the discussion we had a little while ago. Thing worked pretty good. It's not even modified all that much because it clearly sounds like a I-4. You don't need a bunch of power to get something sideways.
There is a drift S-10, someone posted a video of it somewhere in one of the discussion we had a little while ago. Thing worked pretty good. It's not even modified all that much because it clearly sounds like a I-4. You don't need a bunch of power to get something sideways.
- 782
- Douglasville, G
- BlackStig
I'm not referring to power when I say "modified", I'm the proclaimer that you do not need power to drift a vehicle, I've driven almost everything from underpowered Hachi Rokus to Team-Ferrari 355 Spyders so I understand the methods of getting various cars sideways.
When I mentioned "modified" I was referring to the suspension, ground clearance and height from tire-to-top that had to be met in order for drifting events to allow it in. It's a Drift Fury vehicle and I've seen it go round the track, it's very impressive.
-Stig
When I mentioned "modified" I was referring to the suspension, ground clearance and height from tire-to-top that had to be met in order for drifting events to allow it in. It's a Drift Fury vehicle and I've seen it go round the track, it's very impressive.
-Stig
