Restoring My Beliefs

[Danoff]

Hmm...this is very interesting. But I think Pako and myself are coming from a slighty different standpoint.

We have been touched by God, read the bible, seen the hand of God manifest in our lives directly. It's not like looking at a car commercial and being convinced that Daweoo is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I guess what I'm wondering is what you would consider "justified".

Something that has real evidence. If I have evidence that suggests the purple dragon will kill me for chewing, I can start to believe it. The side effects (or implications) of the belief (good or bad) do not enter into the equation when verifiying the belief (and that was my whole point Pako).

 

[ace96]

i lost faith is cristianity i converted to islam

 

[GT4_Rule]

i lost faith is cristianity i converted to islam

Oh really....

What is a Qu'ran and what are its main principles?

 

[Niels]

i lost faith is cristianity i converted to islam

Is it because your familie's origin is from the middle-east?

 

[Touring Mars]

This is a good time to remind everyone that just because this thread is in the Opinions forum, it doesn't give you a free license to insult people or make inconsiderate or offensive remarks. Keep it civil, keep it on-topic, or keep it to yourself.

 

[Wolfe]

Don't judge Australians from him please.

Don't worry, he already explained that he's a "europian" that just happens to be living in Australia.

*Ahem* By the way, guys, I have a feeling someone is going to want this thread to get back on-topic at some point...

 

[James2097]

People believe in fictional benefits. "This cream will make you look like this 20 year old model". These benefits are not real, yet people buy into it thinking it is real. They are outright lies with the intent of making the company money that sells the product. I still don't see how this supports my claim of 'real' benefits of salvation with the only requirement being between you and God. There are NO ill gains or half truths about this. No one gets rich off of your personal relationship with God. Is faith abused by some people and groups? You bet, without a doubt.....some organized religions have abused until they are sick with ill gotten gains. There have been countries attacked in the name of religion, even Christianity. As long as we are human, we will continue to make mistakes. Don't judge what Christ can do for you based on these exceptions of people that have clearly distorted their belief system for their own gain and all in the name of God. Organized religion of the day hated Christ for many reasons, one of which is that Christ was preaching a doctrine that would take control away from the churches and synagogues. He was, for lack of a better word, a political radical of the day. What is this conspiracy of mind control or a means to collect money all in the name of God? This is not what Christ teaches so where does it come from? Why is Christ's teachings being associated with this mind set? There seems to be some real confusion here.

Sorry, I seem to have totally gotten off track here. Good questions still the same. A lot of questioned faith comes from the doubts that we have in our own minds like if God is so loving, why does He let good people die. Why do bad things happen to good people. Look at these churches, all they do is judge and want money, this must be a doctrine created by man...it's all made up.

I'll always have questions, that's part of faith. The journey in looking and asking for the answers is part of faith. At some point you come to a place of peace but you still have questions and in some cases doubts which is ok, you need to question those doubts and do your research. I would encourage it as it will only strengthen your faith.

Thanks for admitting to and rephrasing some of the concerns I have with organised religion. It's less blunt than how I said it, but I think we have the same concerns as to how organised religion is often used, with people's personal faith exploited for monetary gain.

I just think this problem runs a LOT deeper than any person of faith might care to admit.

 

[Niels]

There are parts of the Islam where I certainly don't agree, like the rights of women, but that doesn't mean he deserves this kind of response.
And just to remember you guys, terrorists hide behind the Islam, they're extreme Islam believers they say. Terrorists could as well have used chirstianity but it wasn't a populair belief in the middle-east.

Tell me, what was the insult, he has freedom of religion?

Edit: Though he shouldn't have made all those unnecesarry topics

 

[Touring Mars]

Tell me, what was the insult, he has freedom of religion?

If you're referring to my reference about not making insulting posts, I was not referring to ace96... I was referring to a comment made which equated Islam to suicide bombing, which I felt was inappropriate.

I'm not exactly an Islam-fanboy myself, but I think it is quite wrong to confuse any member of any religion with religious extremists or extremism. Sure, there are plenty of extremists, but there are plenty more moderates. But you are right, extremists do hide behind the facade of religion to justify their actions. I consider suicide bombing to be a tool of assymetric warfare, a despicable and indiscriminate one at that. But as has been made abundantly clear by leading Islamic groups (esp. here in the UK after the July 7th bombings), there is no provision in the Islamic faith to justify or support suicide bombing. So these people who blow themselves up in the name of Allah, are infact not acting in the name of Islam, but in the name of their own interests.

 

[Carl.]

I'm not sure if you're speaking aobut the comment I've made above, but it wasn't meant as an insult to Muslims. That was a reaction to his recent posts in multiple threads, where he wouldn't want to hear anything about the western world fighting religious extremism and terrorism, not Islam. He genuinely seemed like someone with had an axe to grind with us, "infidels", and who came here to vent off.

My remark was aimed at his behavior, and religious extremism. I'm sorry if that offended anyone besides him. Perhaps seeing all the strong Muslim protests that happened after the Danish cartoons story while barely anyone says a word when a bus is blown up at Tel-Aviv doesn't help my reaction, too.

 

[Touring Mars]

No worries Carl, I wasn't referring to any of your posts (although it now doesn't make sense after my thread clean up, so I've had to take it away anyway... sorry )

 

[Carl.]

Good to know, wasn't sure.

He sure pushed my buttons though, he gave a bit of a workout to my backspace key.

 

[Pako]

Sorry I missed all the fun earlier....but TM had it under control!

Something that has real evidence. If I have evidence that suggests the purple dragon will kill me for chewing, I can start to believe it. The side effects (or implications) of the belief (good or bad) do not enter into the equation when verifiying the belief (and that was my whole point Pako).

There's a real difference between your make-believe purple dragon (or spaghetti monster) that you made up and the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Your purple dragon symbolises fiction, mans creativity, bogus claims of grandeur. The life experience of Christ was witnessed, documented, and preserved for more than 2,000 years. I don't see how you could possibly compare the two except that you have chosen to 'need' more proof then what the Gospels in the Bible or millions of believers can give you, and therefore have concluded by choice that Christ must be as fictional as your purple dragon.

James2097,
I have no problem admitting where man has failed miserably. It's all around us.....I think the majority of us really try to make a good and honest go of it but it never seems to fail, where ever there is power, there is greed, which seems to always lead to corruption. One theme or teaching that appears several times in Christ's teachings is humility. It's hard to be lead to corruption when you have humbled yourself.

 

[Famine]

There's a real difference between your make-believe purple dragon (or spaghetti monster) that you made up and the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

I'm sure I'm not alone in chuckling at that point. I'm sorry, Pako - and Swift et al. - but I just can't help it when people refer to made-up things being different to Jesus.

The life experience of Christ was witnessed, documented, and preserved for more than 2,000 years. I don't see how you could possibly compare the two except that you have chosen to 'need' more proof then what the Gospels in the Bible

Again, in the four Gospels there's three different documented, witnessed, preserved versions of Christ's last words. Considering that this is the central part of your religion (well, the resurrection is, but he did have to die first), that's a pretty poor showing.

or millions of believers can give you

Millions of people believe in John Edward. Millions of Californians believe they've been abducted by aliens. "Proof" from "believers" is no proof at all.

It's hard to be lead to corruption when you have humbled yourself.

And this made me laugh too. It's nearly up there with "I AM modest. In fact I'm super-modest. I'm the best in the world at being modest."

 

[Danoff]

First of all, Famine hit the nail on the head. Secondly...

There's a real difference between your make-believe purple dragon (or spaghetti monster) that you made up and the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Your purple dragon symbolises fiction, mans creativity, bogus claims of grandeur. The life experience of Christ was witnessed, documented, and preserved for more than 2,000 years.

You're wandering here. I need you to stay focused on the specific point I made. I'm not trying to prove or disprove the existance of Christ or God or question the validity of the bible. Let's not take this there.

You made a statement... that the benefits you receive in life from your beliefs helps justify those beliefs.

How can I go about disproving that . Note that the nature of the beliefs is not important to this discussion. The statement simply states that benefits obtained from belief are an indication of the truth of those beliefs.

There is only one way for me to disprove a claim like that - which is to give you a scenario in which a belief can be agreed upon ahead of time to be false - yet yield benefits to the believer. That's what I did with the purple dragon. I provided an example of a false belief that yielded positive benefits thereby showing that any perceived benefits of a certain belief have no bearing on the truth of the belief.

Conclusion being? You can't claim that the benefits you experience in life from yoru belief in God is proof that God exists.

Just so you don't misinterpret this:
1) This does not mean God does not exist
2) This does not mean that your beliefs are equal to the purple dragon I made up.
3) This does not mean that you don't receive benefits from your beliefs.

What this means is - you cannot use perceived benefits from a belief as evidence that the belief is correct.

 

[James2097]

And this made me laugh too. It's nearly up there with "I AM modest. In fact I'm super-modest. I'm the best in the world at being modest."

I'm actually sorry Pako, but Famine made me see this in a really REALLY funny way (I think you would rephrase now eh...). I hadn't had a good laugh in a couple of weeks, thanks Famine!

 

[Swift]

I'm sure I'm not alone in chuckling at that point. I'm sorry, Pako - and Swift et al. - but I just can't help it when people refer to made-up things being different to Jesus.

Are you saying that Jesus of Nazareth was/is made up?

 

[Famine]

That rather depends on what you mean by "made up".

I am not aware of any evidence, which isn't Scripture, to say that he was a real person - though that doesn't mean there isn't any, or that he wasn't. It could well be that there was A Jesus of Nazerath, but THE Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament is a fictional character. Could be that the character was based upon someone real, or even some events which were real...

 

[Duke]

That rather depends on what you mean by "made up".

I am not aware of any evidence, which isn't Scripture, to say that he was a real person - though that doesn't mean there isn't any, or that he wasn't. It could well be that there was A Jesus of Nazerath, but THE Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament is a fictional character. Could be that the character was based upon someone real, or even some events which were real...

I am going to take an ever-so-slightly different view on this one.

I accept that Jesus as a person is a real historical figure. His appearance in other religious and historical texts is enough to indicate to me that he likely physically existed.

It's the assertion that he was the Son of God and was resurrected from death, that I think enters the realm of myth. This assertion is not independently corroborated outside the Bible, and thus can't be taken as verified or even likely 'fact' no matter how many people choose to believe in it.

 

[Swift]

I am going to take an ever-so-slightly different view on this one.

I accept that Jesus as a person is a real historical figure. His appearance in other religious and historical texts is enough to indicate to me that he likely physically existed.

It's the assertion that he was the Son of God and was resurrected from death, that I think enters the realm of myth. This assertion is not independently corroborated outside the Bible, and thus can't be taken as verified or even likely 'fact' no matter how many people choose to believe in it.

I can deal with and respect that. And I'll just stop right there.

 

[ledhed]

That rather depends on what you mean by "made up".

I am not aware of any evidence, which isn't Scripture, to say that he was a real person - though that doesn't mean there isn't any, or that he wasn't. It could well be that there was A Jesus of Nazerath, but THE Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament is a fictional character. Could be that the character was based upon someone real, or even some events which were real...

Histoical or allegory proof that Jesus is a real person..Jesus of nazereth born to Mary and Joseph... has existed and is exepted by most historians as a "fact" for a long time . More is being found all the time ( like the fossil records are constantly being added to...much the same with History ) and more is alluded to in other historical records . is there DNA ? Or other concrete evidence ? No not yet..unlike the Pharohs who were nice enough to get mummified for us ..not much physical proof of a persons existence exist for a slew of historical figures.

History is not a science and is often filtered through the years and by others minds to include opinion and conjecture and to omit facts . thats why its always under study and is often revised to rid it of revisions put there by revisionist . try to wrap your logic around that mr. Spock...I suggest you duct tape your head first .

I may actually overload the server with links for ya ......

 

[Famine]

Well, as I said, I'm not aware of the evidence regarding his bodily existence - and that's why I neither ruled it out nor in. I just haven't read it.

 

[Touring Mars]

I also agree with Duke's analysis, although many questions remain about Jesus which may never be answered. Ironically enough, the fact that he was resurrected and his body never buried or interred here on Earth kind of puts the mockers on ever hoping to find his remains and hence 'prove' his existence... although some people clearly believe that Jesus (and the family 'dynasty') was real and that some day their remains shall be uncovered....

 

[Pako]

[1] I'm sure I'm not alone in chuckling at that point. I'm sorry, Pako - and Swift et al. - but I just can't help it when people refer to made-up things being different to Jesus.

[2] Again, in the four Gospels there's three different documented, witnessed, preserved versions of Christ's last words. Considering that this is the central part of your religion (well, the resurrection is, but he did have to die first), that's a pretty poor showing.

[3] Millions of people believe in John Edward. Millions of Californians believe they've been abducted by aliens. "Proof" from "believers" is no proof at all.

[4] And this made me laugh too. It's nearly up there with "I AM modest. In fact I'm super-modest. I'm the best in the world at being modest."

[1] This is what puzzles me, do you not believe that Christ lived and died? Do you think he's some mystical creature that was manifested out of the minds of men? Besides historical documented proof of his life, what else do you need for proof? Can't hardly go back in time and ask Christ for yourself if he's real.

[2] You are referring to:
John 19:30, Mark 15:34-35, and Matthew 27:46-47. I have come across this before and I don't have a definitive answer for you. Scholars have come up with explanations for this. Here is one example.

I personally don't have an answer for you on this. Nor do I find these differences to be material in my belief. It does raise the question as to why these discrepancies exist and I can either accept what others have researched or find out for myself. One thing that comes to mind is that the honesty of this discrepancy tends to support that the Church did NOT alter the gospels for their own gain. Don't you think they wouldn't have made this apparent mistake and got some key dialog right?

[3] Yes, that's correct....proof of believers is not proof of existence. It does show support, however, for what proof there is. Here's some numbers....

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand​

[4] Not sure where you got this idea from my post. Unless you are referring to my posts trying to address this topic. Questions have been asked and I'm just trying to answer them the best I can. If I can't answer something I will tell you....like the three different different 'last words of Christ'. If I have come across pushy in any way I apologize as that is not my intention here.

danoff,
Sorry I misunderstood your point. You say, "What this means is - you cannot use perceived benefits from a belief as evidence that the belief is correct." I would say that in and of itself, the benefits are not enough to make one belief better than the other, but it is something that shouldn't be ignored when considering a belief. Certainly eternal life in heaven has it's perks.

James2097,
Don't worry about it, no need to apologize. I can see a cartoon now with two people screaming at each other, spit flying out of their mouths arguing about who is the most humble....

Duke,
I can understand your take on Jesus. You get to a point where you have to ask yourself if you believe or not. Enough people (back in the day) believed strongly enough that Jesus was in fact the Son of God to continue His message which is now the basis for Christianity.

There will always be questions. I enjoy these discussions as it brings to the surface more questions that I might not have questioned myself.

 

[James2097]

I agree with Duke. I think there is enough evidence to suggest Jesus likely existed, and he was probably a really top bloke. But the bit where it becomes really silly (and everyone in the movie theater of rationality gives a smirk of "yeah right!") is where he dies and comes back for more, like all great Hollywood movie bad guys (and some good guys like Jack Bauer).

Looks like the Romans didn't finish the job very well, deciding to go with the Dr. Evil style plan of just leaving Jesus on the cross (with no guards) letting him formulate a cunning escape plan (namely, sms Dad for help, although texting with that nail in the hand would be a challenge).

Sorry, must be the insomnia screwing with my brain, its 4:30am and I'm feeling strange.

 

[Danoff]

[3] Yes, that's correct....proof of believers is not proof of existence. It does show support, however, for what proof there is. Here's some numbers....

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand​

Looks like the non-Christians have a lot more people than the Christians.

danoff,
Sorry I misunderstood your point. You say, "What this means is - you cannot use perceived benefits from a belief as evidence that the belief is correct." I would say that in and of itself, the benefits are not enough to make one belief better than the other, but it is something that shouldn't be ignored when considering a belief. Certainly eternal life in heaven has it's perks.

...and those perks don't help justify a belief in eternal life.

 

[Pako]

Looks like the non-Christians have a lot more people than the Christians.

Sure does. What do we have now, something like 6.6 billion people on the earth now? That would mean that Christians only make up 32% of the total world religous demographic.

...and those perks don't help justify a belief in eternal life.

You either believe what Jesus said or your don't. He performed miracles that science cannot explain. He was born of the virgin Mary, and he died and rose again and ascended into heaven. Jesus is the reason for belief, plain and simple. If you ignore those historical facts or simply pass them off as fireside folklore that is your choice, but the life of Christ has been documented and preserved. It's a take or leave it thing. Do some research, study Christ's origin. You can either except the facts or you don't.

 

[Danoff]

You either believe what Jesus said or your don't. He performed miracles that science cannot explain. He was born of the virgin Mary, and he died and rose again and ascended into heaven. Jesus is the reason for belief, plain and simple.

It is through consistent benefits in my life that I choose to remain faithful....it works for me and millions of others so why wouldn't it work for you?

I like the "you just have to buy it" reasoning better than the "it helps" argument. Thought neither is particularly convincing.

 

[Pako]

I like the "you just have to buy it" reasoning better than the "it helps" argument. Thought neither is particularly convincing.

I guess it's not that simple to describe a complete life transformation in just a couple of sentences. It starts with a belief in Jesus and believing that he died for your sins so that you can be forgiven of those sins and asking for those sins to be forgiven. That is just the beginning step of your faith and your walk with God. The 'benefits' come as a result of your belief, which is what you were trying to tell me which I agree. The benefits don't create the belief, but the other way around.

 

[Famine]

[1] This is what puzzles me, do you not believe that Christ lived and died? Do you think he's some mystical creature that was manifested out of the minds of men? Besides historical documented proof of his life, what else do you need for proof? Can't hardly go back in time and ask Christ for yourself if he's real.

As described in the Bible? No.

As I said, I'm unaware of any other evidence about the existence of an actual man named Jesus of Nazareth (or any corruption of such - as no-one can quite agree on the last part), so I can't comment on that part.

[2] You are referring to:
John 19:30, Mark 15:34-35, and Matthew 27:46-47. I have come across this before and I don't have a definitive answer for you. Scholars have come up with explanations for this. Here is one example.

I personally don't have an answer for you on this. Nor do I find these differences to be material in my belief. It does raise the question as to why these discrepancies exist and I can either accept what others have researched or find out for myself. One thing that comes to mind is that the honesty of this discrepancy tends to support that the Church did NOT alter the gospels for their own gain. Don't you think they wouldn't have made this apparent mistake and got some key dialog right?

Though one thing it does cast doubt on is whether the Bible is the word of God. The explanation you linked to has one author "improving upon" another, and a third influenced by the dramatic style of the time... The authors can't seem to agree on the story of the resurrection either. It automatically raises at least two questions to my mind. How can the Bible be trusted as a source of information when supposed witnesses cannot agree on two fundamental events, and what other "improvements" and external influences went on?

[3] Yes, that's correct....proof of believers is not proof of existence. It does show support, however, for what proof there is. Here's some numbers....

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand​

Americans who believe they were kidnapped by aliens: 4 million.
Idiots who believe Loose Change: Innumerable

[4] Not sure where you got this idea from my post. Unless you are referring to my posts trying to address this topic. Questions have been asked and I'm just trying to answer them the best I can. If I can't answer something I will tell you....like the three different different 'last words of Christ'. If I have come across pushy in any way I apologize as that is not my intention here.

No, it was just the wording that made me laugh, not your meaning. After all, wouldn't a truely humble person know that they could be corrupted easily (just as a truely modest person wouldn't proclaim to be the best at being modest)? That was all - just the wording.