Restoring My Beliefs

[Duke]

Long story short, I've been rethinking my beliefs. The only hole in what I believe in is death. To be honest, I am scared of it. I don't know what is going to happen when I die, but all I know is I DONT want to find out... That is one reason that have been thinking of changing what I believe in, since according to the bible, and God, I can still get into heaven yet. I know this kind of sounds stupid, but, I would like to believe in some sort of life after death, because eternal darkness is scary. Switching to the christian faith will give me something more to believe in, maybe giving me some inner peace, which I lack of recent.

Let me ask you these two questions:

What do you remember of your 'existence' before you were born?

What reason do you have to suppose that it will be any different after you die?

 

[Kylehnat]

Let me ask you these two questions:

What do you remember of your 'existence' before you were born?

What reason do you have to suppose that it will be any different after you die?

Bingo 👍

When you die, you don't just sit in a black space for all eternity. You're dead. Consciousness ceases forever. When you sleep, are you aware of it? You only dream for a few seconds each night. Are you bored for the other several hours? No, because you aren't conscious. If you fell asleep and never woke up, would you know? Death is something to ponder, not something to fear

 

[Danoff]

McLaren,

Just a general observation here. To "believe", or have faith in the lack of existance of God is comparable to "believing" or having faith in the existance of God.

You have no basis of belief that God does not exist, only a lack of evidence that it does. Belief in God is certainly not justified given no rational reason for it, but what evidence do you have that God does not exist?

If I were you, I would rephrase your statement. Rather than claiming that I believed God does not exist, I would simply say, "I do not believe God exists". It may seem like a subtle distinction, but it makes a difference. An affirmative statement like yours requires proof. A negative statement like the one I made above requires only doubt.

 

[Kylehnat]

If I were you, I would rephrase your statement. Rather than claiming that I believed God does not exist, I would simply say, "I do not believe God exists". It may seem like a subtle distinction, but it makes a difference.

Would you like us to send you more hairs to split, or are you satisfied for now?

You bring up an interesting point, though. Is an atheist one who believes fully that a god cannot exist, or one who is not convinced by the evidence that a god does exist?

Either way, is it a logical proof (works on math exams), or proof by lack-of-proof? (does not work on math exams )

 

[Dave A]

What reason do you have to suppose that it will be any different after you die?

According to the bible, the dead are concious of nothing, which I agree with, when I die, I'm dead. I don't believe that's the end for everyone though, since the bible also say's there will be a ressurection of the righteous and the unrighteous. But then when your ressurected, wherever that may be, your no longer dead so there you go.

 

[Swift]

Bingo 👍

When you die, you don't just sit in a black space for all eternity. You're dead. Consciousness ceases forever. When you sleep, are you aware of it? You only dream for a few seconds each night. Are you bored for the other several hours? No, because you aren't conscious. If you fell asleep and never woke up, would you know? Death is something to ponder, not something to fear

And you know that for a fact because?

And yes, most people of intelligence can make the distinction between dream and reality.

I just find it funny that some say that the religous have no proof of heaven and hell. But then make definitive statements like this. Just, very funny.

 

[Dave A]

I agree, is it that hard to admit that both views require a level of faith, regardless of which view you have.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree, is it that hard to admit that both views require a level of faith, regardless of which view you have.

+1. That's why I'm an agnostic, though I lean more towards the side of atheism...I know that logically, it is impossible to prove or disprove God's existence, but I'm doubtful that he/she exists.

 

[Kylehnat]

And you know that for a fact because?

I'm responding to this, which was a contradiction:

I would like to believe in some sort of life after death, because eternal darkness is scary.

If you were aware of "eternal darkness", that would be some sort of life after death, as the deceased body can have no physical consciousness, because the brain has ceased to function. Spiritual consciousness after death can of course be debated.

And yes, most people of intelligence can make the distinction between dream and reality.

I wasn't making a distinction between dream and reality, but rather a distinction between the part of sleep where you dream, and the part where you don't. You are aware of one, but not the other. That is, when you are asleep but not dreaming, do you know that you're asleep? I sure don't. That eight hours goes by in the blink of an eye. Eight hours during the day sure feels a lot longer.

I just find it funny that some say that the religous have no proof of heaven and hell. But then make definitive statements like this. Just, very funny.

It is true. I shouldn't peddle such bold assertions as fact. Nobody living can profess to know what happens after death. Therefore, it is implicit that every claim of the afterlife (or lack thereof) comes with "Disclaimer: personal belief; may or may not be true." You know this, and that I'm not trying to brainwash anyone to join my cult.

 

[Swift]

It is true. I shouldn't peddle such bold assertions as fact. Nobody living can profess to know what happens after death. Therefore, it is implicit that every claim of the afterlife (or lack thereof) comes with "Disclaimer: personal belief; may or may not be true." You know this, and that I'm not trying to brainwash anyone to join my cult.

I don't think you're in a cult. I just want to you make sure you're consistant in what you say.

 

[Duke]

I just find it funny that some say that the religous have no proof of heaven and hell. But then make definitive statements like this. Just, very funny.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As I've said many many times, you can never logically prove that something doesn't exist. You can only fail to prove that something does exist.

Of course, since I cannot prove that any given form of the afterlife does not exist, I have no way to eliminate any and every form of afterlife from consideration, including every possible form anybody has ever thought, and may ever think.

So I go by what evidence I do have, and that is that there is no conciousness without existence, and no existence without life. I have no memory of before I was a year old, let alone before I was born. I have no memory of a prior life. While it is theoretically possible that my 'soul' was re-set in preparation for another reincarnation, if I can never remember that prior life, what does it matter if it ever existed or not?

 

[Zrow]

I don't know why people are always trying to "prove" religious concepts and disprove, or at least doubt, scientific theory. Isn't religion based on faith? Why do you even need evidence or verification? Why try to disprove evolution - shouldn't your faith be enough?

 

[Swift]

I don't know why people are always trying to "prove" religious concepts and disprove, or at least doubt, scientific theory. Isn't religion based on faith? Why do you even need evidence or verification? Why try to disprove evolution - shouldn't your faith be enough?

It is.

But at some level, this universe was created. That is the debate and that is what seperates the side of the argument, who or what created the universe.

Of course, that's a topic for the creation-evolution thread.

 

[Danoff]

It is.

But at some level, this universe was created. That is the debate and that is what seperates the side of the argument, who or what created the universe.

Of course, that's a topic for the creation-evolution thread.

Well the debate exists on many fronts - this is one of them. Here's the list I can see of separate debatable topics.

1) How can people believe something they have no rational reason to believe (ie: have faith)?
2) Does the god of the bible exist (ie: the God that created man in his image in 6 days etc. etc.), and how literally should we take the bible?
3) Why does reality exist at all?
4) Does evolution exist and if so, are humans the result?


I'd say (3) is the only one we don't have a good answer for.

 

[ledhed]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As I've said many many times, you can never logically prove that something doesn't exist. You can only fail to prove that something does exist.

Of course, since I cannot prove that any given form of the afterlife does not exist, I have no way to eliminate any and every form of afterlife from consideration, including every possible form anybody has ever thought, and may ever think.

So I go by what evidence I do have, and that is that there is no conciousness without existence, and no existence without life. I have no memory of before I was a year old, let alone before I was born. I have no memory of a prior life. While it is theoretically possible that my 'soul' was re-set in preparation for another reincarnation, if I can never remember that prior life, what does it matter if it ever existed or not?

This is now and forever to be known as Dukes moment of Zen

Are you sitting on top of a mountain in Nepal while you type this ?💡

 

[Swift]

Well the debate exists on many fronts - this is one of them. Here's the list I can see of separate debatable topics.

1) How can people believe something they have no rational reason to believe (ie: have faith)?
2) Does the god of the bible exist (ie: the God that created man in his image in 6 days etc. etc.), and how literally should we take the bible?
3) Why does reality exist at all?
4) Does evolution exist and if so, are humans the result?


I'd say (3) is the only one we don't have a good answer for.

1 and 2 are the same. Not because there is only one god that people believe in, but without faith, it doesn't matter what text you use.

4 is the most debated issue between the two sides

I have an answer for 3, but it's from the bible so that doesn't count for a lot of you.

EDIT: Duke, Excellent post. I don't agree with your conclusions but it's a well written thought. (points given, like he needs any more. )

 

[Danoff]

1 and 2 are the same. Not because there is only one god that people believe in, but without faith, it doesn't matter what text you use.

4 is the most debated issue between the two sides

I have an answer for 3, but it's from the bible so that doesn't count for a lot of you.

Granted that the answer to 3 partially depends on the answer to 2.

👍 Good call on 1 and 2. The question "what makes one religion better than others" is the same thing as asking how faith is possible.

 

[a6m5]

Well the debate exists on many fronts - this is one of them. Here's the list I can see of separate debatable topics.

1) How can people believe something they have no rational reason to believe (ie: have faith)?
2) Does the god of the bible exist (ie: the God that created man in his image in 6 days etc. etc.), and how literally should we take the bible?
3) Why does reality exist at all?
4) Does evolution exist and if so, are humans the result?


I'd say (3) is the only one we don't have a good answer for.

1) I don't know if it's completely irrational, just because something can't be explained scientifically. There are gods, devils and other supernatural things that's been witnessed in the past. Maybe everything was faked, or mistaken. Maybe not.

2) I'm hoping so, since that's the only one I know. But just because it's very popular doesn't mean it's true. As for the bible, I'd like to think of it as a guide.

3) Reality as in the world we live in? Here's my personal take: My guess is that it's a test. Adam and Eve try to do their own thing by not heeding god's rule. As a result, we went from the Garden of Eden to our world, complete with illness, aging, killing, etc. a) we are being tested as a person. b)god is respecting our wish to do it our way, teaching as a lesson at the same time.

4) I have a very weird guess on this one. It is a very big & wild super-duper guess. Evolution was the testing/researching process used by the creator. I could've just said I'm not sure, since even I don't take this seriously. But this is more entertaining, yes?

 

[ledhed]

I am going to let you guys in for a bit just in case it may help some of you younger than I to deal with your feelings concerning religion.

I was Baptized catholic . My Mom was devout . My dad was Lutherine and not into religion at all..unless you count Odin and the Norse Gods ...he seems to think they make just about as much sense as any other beliefe system.

Growing up ..and even today if I am in a Church or other place of whorship I can honestly say I still FEEL something..and it has not mattered what type of religion..or who the house belonged to and it was not only from my feelings of respect for others customs or beliefs .

I am fairly well educated ..more than most in History and related subjects , I have a working knowlage of science and biology..I may not be able able to spell well and my composition skills suck..but hey I blame it on my favorite English teacher Dr. Frankel who taught me the value of the Marx brothers instead of sentence structure. I loved that guy ..one of my favorite teachers ever. And the guy that showed me I could learn any subject if I kept an open mind as was willing to see past the printed word and always keep an open mind .

I cannot due to my education and life experiance reconcile organized religion of any type with what I know to be true . But that does not stop me from searching or believing in the possibility that there may be some truth to it .

I know too many good and devout people who seem to be able to recocile there secular lives with their spiritual lives..and ways I envy them ...I have seen the comfort first hand that faith has given the husband of a good freind , who's wife finally succumbed to cancer after a long and painfull struggle..when he looked into my eye's right into my soul..if I have one ..there was no denying what he firmly believed when he said " she's with God now ..its all good " I have amogst my good friends a Judge who is devout and lives his personal life spiritualy but firmly believes that its his job " To render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars " ...and doesnt judge by the bible but by mans laws on the bench..so Its possible for some and harder for others to seperate the spiritual from the secular . But life experiance and exposure to not only my good friends but others like them inspires me to keep an open mind and to keep searching for a very elusive and very personal answer.

I have my doubts , but as Duke has eluded to , I cant prove something doesnt exist ..I can just record and anylise the good and the bad that comes with its existance .

So keep an open mind never say never and keep searching for the answer .
What can it hurt ? And you will better off for it . No matter what the subject .

 

[Joey D]

I was baptized Catholic, went to Catholic school for 8 years, and used to be drug to church every Sunday to listen to some holy roller go on about why something is bad. I always thought it was a big joke and just a form of mind control...which is what modern day religion is. Old religion was merely a bunch of stories that taught people right from wrong.

What gets me though is that people think Christianity is so great but really it's just a bunch of stories. Here is some food for thought that I managed to put together in a research/opinionated paper for college. I studied the ancient Egyptians and found out that their religion had quite a bit of similarities to Christianity. The Egyptians believed that their Pharaoh (fouth dynasty, the time the pyramids were built) were indeed the son of Ra (Re, the almight god of the sun) and when the Pharaoh died and was burried into the pyramid where his body accended into the heavens....sound fimilar?

Futhering my belief that Christianity is nothing more then a bunch of stories and in a thousand years it will be nothing more then mythology.

I dislike religion quite a bit as you can tell, but it never stops me from at least investigating it. Like everyone says have an open mind...but I say not so open your brains fall out.

 

[Swift]

What gets me though is that people think Christianity is so great but really it's just a bunch of stories. Here is some food for thought that I managed to put together in a research/opinionated paper for college. I studied the ancient Egyptians and found out that their religion had quite a bit of similarities to Christianity. The Egyptians believed that their Pharaoh (fouth dynasty, the time the pyramids were built) were indeed the son of Ra (Re, the almight god of the sun) and when the Pharaoh died and was burried into the pyramid where his body accended into the heavens....sound fimilar?

No, it doesn't sound familiar.

• There was a lot more then one Pharoh
• Pharoh's weren't tortued to death
• Pharoh's never ate with common people
• the egyptians believed in many different gods, not just Ra

If you dislike the concept of christianity that's fine. But comparing it the religion of the ancient egyptians, outside the sheer existance of diety, makes no sense at all.

 

[Joey D]

Except the fouth dynasty Pharaoh was assumed to be the son of Ra and accended into the stars to be with his father. That is the part I'm saying is similar. Son of a god, dies, accends into heaven.

Also there were several Pharaohs that died in a gruesome manner, so there was tortured ones. Not much is actually known about Khufu (the one that is though to be the son of Ra).

But really I can't accept that a guy walked about the middel east performing miricles, died for the worlds sins, and was resurrected from the dead to go up into the heavens. I'm sure there was a Jesus of Nazareth, I'm sure he preached, but there is no clear cut evidence he did anything like the Bible says.

This is a sipit of the paper, much of it had to do with "alien" involvement in the building the pyramids, hence why I'm not posting the whole thing.

My research leads me to believe that the answer to this question lies somewhere in the Egyptian gods, more specifically with the Egyptian god of Ra (or Re as it is sometimes spelled). Ra, in Egyptian mythology, is the creator of all life, much like the Christian’s God named Elohim, but Ra is also credited with being the patron god of the sun, heaven, kingship, power, and light (Ra 1). It was said that Ra was created by the Ogdoad, which were a four pairs of gods (which were snakes) and goddesses (which were frogs) that represented water, air, darkness, and eternity, what the Egyptians thought were the four fundamentals of being. As the myth goes the four pairs of gods and goddesses became unbalanced and thus lead to the creation of a new entity Ra. To do this they placed an egg on an island in a vast area, when ‘hatched’ a mighty sun rose up and was named Ra. From here, Ra and the four pairs of gods and goddess known as Nun, Naunet, Kuk, Kauket, Hu, Hauhet, Amun, and Amaunet started to create the world and spawn a vast empire for the Egyptians (Ogdoad 1). Ra is also closely related with the Pharaohs of Egypt, during the fourth dynasty the Pharaohs and their kings were proclaimed ‘Sons of Ra’ (Däniken 144). This is where I think it gets interesting and where my theory starts to make sense. The Fourth Dynasty is when the Great Pyramids were supposedly built, and this is when they Pharaoh’s became the ‘Sons of Ra’. So does this mean that the Pharaoh’s during this were some sort of Egyptian version of Jesus? I believe so because if you leave religion totally out of the subject and look at purely the story itself, they are remarkably similar. Jesus, according to the Christian religion, is the son of the God, Elohim, who was born a man and to become the King of the Jews (Jesus 1). The Pharaoh, according to what we know about ancient Egypt, is the son of the god Ra who was born a man and became the King of the Egyptian (Feature 1). I don’t think this can be a coincident that both religions are based around the same type of story, and this leads in more of my theory.

When Jesus was crucified, he died, and was buried. Three days later he rose from the dead to spend 40 more days on Earth (whether this figure is correct is a matter of belief, but the number 40 in the Bible represents a long time). After his time on Earth was over, he ascended into heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father (Jesus 2). The story with the Egyptians is similar in a few ways. The Pharaoh was the ‘Son of Ra’ and, when he died his sprit or body (depending on what Egyptologist you listen to) was assumed to be transported into the afterlife. So basically the Pharaoh ascended into the Egyptian’s version of heaven to be with Ra, which again is strikingly similar to the belief of Jesus ascending into the Christian version of heaven. This is exactly what the Great Pyramid is said to be, an ascension device to send the Pharaoh on his way out of the world of the living (Features 2). This is all to similar for me to believe there is not a connection, but I just don’t have enough research to link it all together, which is another reason I want to become an anthropologist. With studies and a better disposal of material for research I think I might be able to find this ‘missing link’ of Egypt. So what am I suggesting here? That the bases for all religion came from ancient stories, that start with the Egyptians, and were told to people who came up these ideas a supernatural being known as God, Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, or whatever other God/god religions now a days worship.

 

[Swift]

But really I can't accept that a guy walked about the middel east performing miricles, died for the worlds sins, and was resurrected from the dead to go up into the heavens. I'm sure there was a Jesus of Nazareth, I'm sure he preached, but there is no clear cut evidence he did anything like the Bible says.

How do you know he was here and that he preached? Except from the whole split time thing of course.

Also, was Kufu to go to heaven and make sure all others could get there as well?

 

[Joey D]

How do I know Jesus exsisted? I would just assume if their is religion based on one person that there would at least be a physical entity named Jesus.

And if Jesus went to heaven to make sure all other could get in then why is it that according to many Christians I met I will burn in hell because I don't accept God or Jesus...wouldn't that mean not everyone can get in? But only the ones that believe in God?

This is one part of religion I do not get, there are so many interpurtations how do you know which one is right? I mean I can totally respect that people are religious, I just think that religion is silly. But hey if you want to believe in it then by all means do...no one is right or wrong on this subject.

 

[Danoff]

no one is right or wrong on this subject.

There is always a right and wrong. Especially on the topic religion.

 

[Joey D]

There can't be though since you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who's right and who's wrong. I think religion is a joke and is just a bunch of stories aimed to conform you into someone the religion wants you to be. Other's think religion is their life and without it they'd be lost. They think they are right and I'm wrong, and I think I'm right and they are wrong.

 

[GT4_Rule]

How do I know Jesus exsisted? I would just assume if their is religion based on one person that there would at least be a physical entity named Jesus.

And if Jesus went to heaven to make sure all other could get in then why is it that according to many Christians I met I will burn in hell because I don't accept God or Jesus...wouldn't that mean not everyone can get in? But only the ones that believe in God?

This is one part of religion I do not get, there are so many interpurtations how do you know which one is right? I mean I can totally respect that people are religious, I just think that religion is silly. But hey if you want to believe in it then by all means do...no one is right or wrong on this subject.

Nice.

The burn in hell thing is definitely true. Most of them say that, if not all.

 

[Joey D]

Not every Christian is like that, but I get the vibe that many are like that. I just don't understand religion and like I said I attended Catholic school and studied the Bible cover to cover.

 

[Keef]

I think most people take religion way too seriously. It's great to have an "imaginary friend" to look up to or keep you company when you're lonely or maybe to help you answer a particularly difficult question. I call it intuition and/or logic, personally. But when people start accepting it as fact and start making other people believe in it then it gets out of hand.
There is a lot of stuff i nthe bible that can be used in everyday life to great effect. But most people read it and all the sudden feel like they're part of that religion, which they don't need to be. Somehow they sort of get forced into it. Then some people don't and decide to go their own route, like me.
Whenever someone tells me "You'll burn in hell" I say "I don't believe in heaven and hell." Then they say "It's real, even if you don't believe it." I say "When, where, why, what, who, and how? We've been in space, it isn't visible. Hell isn't in the earth, either. So where is it? In your mind, maybe? Well, it isn't in mine, so you're going to go to hell, because you believe in it. I'm not."
Actually, I've never said that, but that's what I think.

 

[Joey D]

Hell isn't in the earth, either. So where is it?

Actually Hell is in the middle southern part of Michigan, I've been there a few times actually . Ok sorry to stray.