Restoring My Beliefs

[Dave A]

Why did God make humans this smart, just to follow the rules of the bible anyway?

Who says we have to follow the bible just as it is written now?

I'm sure if God exsists, a high chance would be that there is a deeper purpose in it the bible. If God is able to do everything he wants, he might want us to discuss the bible the way we do now, and use our own brains to discover the secret behind life. Why would you create living beings that are this smart, just to follow a bible? I just don't see the point.

You should note, we only got the Bible because Adam and Eve sinned, they were created and left to fill the earth and to have everything in subject to them, God didn't say you have 70 years to live though, he gave them one command as an act of obedience to him and he said if you don't obey this one command, you will die. They didn't obey, they became imperfect and subject to death thus not being able to fullfill God's original purpose, they passed thier then imperfect genes onto their childered who passed them on again and again and so on, that's when we were given the Bible. I'd love to go on but it's quite late and what I wan't to say goes quite deep and at the risk of not making as much sense in type as what's going on in my head due to tiredness I'll pickup the discussion wherever it's at tomorrow.

 

[Keef]

I've never read the bilble, but what was God's original purpose? To play morbid games with animate creatures adn watch them be miserable and die pointlessly? He might not have thought about it like that, but that's the only way humans can really think of it. So maybe we should all kill ourselves because, contrary to the consensus reality, death is good. And you say we were "given" the bible? By whom? I understood your sentence as meaning God eventually gave us the bible, as if no effort was put forth by one or many of our own to write it.

 

[Dave A]

No, not to die, like I said, we only became subject to death after Adam and Eve sinned, if they were going to die anyway, what difference would it have made if God gave them the commandment not to eat from that one tree or you will positively die. None. As to us being given the Bible, the Bible is suppsoed to be inspired of God, that is to say, God put it into the hearts of the writes what to put down. So in that sense, god gave us the Bible, you can liken it to a business man dictating a letter to his secretary to be typed up, he's telling her what to say, the letter is from the business man, despite the fact the secretary typed it up. And this is my final, final post of the night on this topic because I really do need to not get drawn into debates what I get tired (though that would be all the time, I mean really tired) becuase I stop making as much sense and would hate that to happen in a debate such as this.

 

[code_kev]

Yeah, right.

So you don't understand sarcasm. *shrug*

It certainly is. Would you care to show me the EXACT place in the bible where it says to stone your children and sell your daughters. I'm not doubting it's in there. I just want to see what you're talking about.

FINE, sheesh, the things I do for you.

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die .... (Dt. 21:18, 21)"

How...loving.

"Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

Nice.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/bible_female.html

Women get it quite tough in the Bible.

Wonderful, you have theories and we have "stories" and for some reason that makes you more correct...interesting.

Infact yes. Real Scientists have theories, you guys have stories. Any questions?

I have and your general tone is always like this. I wonder if you bothered to think of the reason you get the reactions you usually do.

I say what I think Swift, I don't dance about the issue.

It's a physical impossibility to study everything/anything 100%. However, you can be well educacted and knowledgable about both sides of an argument(Famine, Duke, maybe even Danoff ). You obviously haven't the slightest clue about the bible so for you to just tear at it is laughable for me.

While I am no Bible expert, I know enough about it and have enough common sense to ignore it as a factual source. Same with Scientology, I'm no expert but it doesn't take a genius to know its hoo ha. I don't think I even need to explain why. While the Bible is more down to Earth then Ron Hubbards garbage, it's still far to unplausible for me.

Your attempts to discredit what I say because of a lack of knowledge just smacks of hypocrisy to me. I've read, seen and discussed more then enough to form an opinion of my own.

Why apologize for being mean when you didn't have to be in the first place?

Because Swift I was being sarcastic. Liveforspeed realised this, and thus doesn't care.

But honestly, the Bible does contradict it self quite a few times. Here's a list of examples:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

People don't like to have their beliefs challenged, to suddenly be made to thought "Oh no, what if there is no God, what if, when I die I'm worm food?", so they use the most baffling arguments possible to cling on to beliefs which are incomprehensible to many of us in todays rational society.

 

[Whiteout]

when something wrog or bad happens in a persons life for instance a loved one dying, it seems to me that all religion is used for is closure. There are people in the catholic and christian areas of religion that follow the bible blindly and only listen to what the preacher says.

besides i think the only reason why people go if for snack time with booze : )

jk jk

man im going to get stoned hahha too bad i dont have a dad!

im off scott free!

 

[Niels]

You should note, we only got the Bible because Adam and Eve sinned, they were created and left to fill the earth and to have everything in subject to them, God didn't say you have 70 years to live though, he gave them one command as an act of obedience to him and he said if you don't obey this one command, you will die. They didn't obey, they became imperfect and subject to death thus not being able to fullfill God's original purpose, they passed thier then imperfect genes onto their childered who passed them on again and again and so on, that's when we were given the Bible. I'd love to go on but it's quite late and what I wan't to say goes quite deep and at the risk of not making as much sense in type as what's going on in my head due to tiredness I'll pickup the discussion wherever it's at tomorrow.

I see...
If that is the case, I wonder why God "punished" the Pope with death because of Adam and Eve's "mistake".

Swift, we are at least smart enough to have an own opinion, and to think on our own. If God wanted to simply make us follow those rules, why wouldn't he just have "preprogrammed" us to follow the bible? "Preprogrammed" is a weard word for that, but I'm sure that if God exsists, he was able to do that back then.

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Code Kev, almost every instance of contradictions in that link you provided are scriptures taken out of context from the scriptures or events around it. It shows how far the writers stretch for anything in which to try to post an argument and catch one off guard. Throw in surrounding history and supporting verses, and almost every one of those "contradictions" can be crossed of the list. Wow there are even contradictions of scriptures relating to different time periods, all somehow linked together as a discrepency. Amazing.

While you can still hold on to those and similar sources, what have you to say concerning the Bible's prophecies? As I followed your link, I trust you will click to this one and peruse it.

http://100prophecies.org/page1.htm

If you look at the right there are numerous pages of historical fact proving Biblical prophecy.

Documented Bible prophecies are still coming true to this very day, which must mean that the writers were divinely inspired by God. Much more than just stories. While you can refute minute Biblical details, how do you overcome the truth of the general message?

Fact is, if I am wrong, I die having led a respectible life of discipline, giving of myself and my resources to others, and refraining from a self-destructive lifestyle. But if you are wrong, well, I am sure you've read the Bible enough to know what's at stake.

 

[a6m5]

Sorry, I'm jumping in. I wanted to share my opinion on it real quick.

I see...
If that is the case, I wonder why God "punished" the Pope with death because of Adam and Eve's "mistake".

It wasn't just Pope, but entire mankind. Also, I don't really see it as a punishment. In Garden of Eden, we had eternal life. When we left God and Garden of Eden, eternal life did not exist outside it.

Swift, we are at least smart enough to have an own opinion, and to think on our own. If God wanted to simply make us follow those rules, why wouldn't he just have "preprogrammed" us to follow the bible? "Preprogrammed" is a weard word for that, but I'm sure that if God exsists, he was able to do that back then.

Just my opinion, but I think he respected our freedom. He could have just made us robots, I agree, but he didn't.

 

[Niels]

Just my opinion, but I think he respected our freedom. He could have just made us robots, I agree, but he didn't.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but if we were robots we wouldn't be asking for freedom at all

 

[a6m5]

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but if we were robots we wouldn't be asking for freedom at all

I don't think it's harsh at all. Did you understand what I was saying though? You are probably joking, but I can't tell.

 

[Touring Mars]

live4speed and Swift,

Since it's not specifically on-topic, I've responded to a couple of your points regarding evolution in the Creation v Thread thread here...

 

[code_kev]

Out of context or not, they prove a lack of consistency, something which should not happen in a book inspired by a God.

Alot of these prophetic verses are pretty damn vague tbh, thus can be made to fit alot of situations and events. Lets be honest, after all these years theres a thing called chance, chances are some of these things are gonna happen.

Christians have been making predictions for years, and 99% of the time they are talking crap, on the rare occasion they are correct they get all excited and wave it about as proof of divine intervention etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_historical_predictions_by_Christians

Happens all the time.

 

[K_Speed]

Interesting topic, and this was something I just thought about myself.

My oppinion:

We cant prove existence or non-existence of God and Jesus. Just like you guys said. I do believe in something Godlike (or do I really? im not even sure), but there has to be something that made this "reality world".

God and Jesus? How many years ago have people made this up.....its was so long ago that we cannot judge if these are just rumours that have been carried along for over a 2000 years and been twisted and turned into something new.

I mean people believed in anything back then, lightning = God was angry, Heavy rains = god was mad at farmers and made their fields flood........I mean the world was flat for them. Each part of the world made up their own oppinions for sudden weather changes, animals etc.

They didnt understand the things that we understand now. They didnt have much knowledge and just needed to believe in something else or just make an explanation for their life.

Dunno...

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Out of context or not, they prove a lack of consistency, something which should not happen in a book inspired by a God.

Alot of these prophetic verses are pretty damn vague tbh, thus can be made to fit alot of situations and events. Lets be honest, after all these years theres a thing called chance, chances are some of these things are gonna happen.

Christians have been making predictions for years, and 99% of the time they are talking crap, on the rare occasion they are correct they get all excited and wave it about as proof of divine intervention etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_historical_predictions_by_Christians

Happens all the time.

Code Kev,

The second sentence in that link you provided clearly states that it does not include Biblical prophecies. That article concerns supposed prophecies made within the last one thousand years or so since its sources are from Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox churches.

The best disclaimer at all, Code Kev, is the one that states: "It should also be noted that the vast majority of Christians have never believed in these extra-Biblical prophecies."

That link I provided referred strictly to Biblical prophecies coming true from the time of Jesus to our situation in Iraq with the source scripture listed for your reference. Unfortunately there have been some wackos in the churches throughout the ages. I also often wondered if the Bible wasn't manipulated while in the tight control of the Catholic church and such. Since the discovery and translation of the Dead Sea scrolls, which have been carbon dated between the time before Christ through 100 AD. If our current Bible was inaccurate, wouldn't the Dead Sea Scrolls have proved them wrong?

Furthermore, taking scriptures out of context does not assert a lack of consistency. You cannot take a psalm of praise written in David's court and compare it to a prophecy made by Isaiah predicting a punishment upon the Jews for their slide into wickedness to question God's nature.

If your mother ever punished you and then two days later told you that she loves you, did you question her right to be your mother based on inconsistency of actions?

I would ask you again to look at the link I provided earlier and tell me where your contemporaries find them false. Lastly, these prophecies are not generalizations like those of Nostradamus. That link provides the scriptures, and I would be happy to provide specific scriptures that outline specific events of today.

If you are going to use sources that ignorantly compare unrelated scripture, then I see there is no point debating, as yours is not an argument of reason.

 

[ledhed]

Dude you seem normal..how did you find this place ?

 

[Swift]

dahze_dichriste, Very well said in both posts. I appreciate the level headed responses. That is pretty much what I was going to say as well.

TM - I'll check it out.

 

[Danoff]

http://100prophecies.org/page1.htm
If you look at the right there are numerous pages of historical fact proving Biblical prophecy.

Those are pretty freaking weak! That's proof? That's all you require for proof to hold a belief about the universe? If so, you're ignoring even more proof against the claims of the bible.

Documented Bible prophecies are still coming true to this very day, which must mean that the writers were divinely inspired by God.

Is that what it means? Or does it mean that the bible is a long book and that the claims within are weak enough that they were bound to come true... or does it mean that the followers of the bible are so desperate for it to be true that they'll resort to any possible translation of any hebrew word that makes the statement close to true.

Much more than just stories. While you can refute minute Biblical details, how do you overcome the truth of the general message?

What's that? Be good? Yea, tough to overcome. But a good message does not a holy book make.

Fact is, if I am wrong, I die having led a respectible life of discipline, giving of myself and my resources to others, and refraining from a self-destructive lifestyle. But if you are wrong, well, I am sure you've read the Bible enough to know what's at stake.

I'm sure you know your religious history well enough to understand that some religious folks have led a very destructive lifestyle because of their beliefs. Plus, penalties and rewards in the afterlife are no reason to compromise your view of the truth. Belief in relgion for the convenience of covering your ass is one of the cheapest ways to sell your integrity (and according to the bible, it won't even work).

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Danoff, I did not list that phrase meaning that I am just covering myself. I have had enough of my own experiences in my own life to know that God exists, the Bible is true and that I know what to expect when I die. No, I have never seen God in person, but I have heard his voice and know when he's guiding me.

Therefore, I have received much more as proof that just trying to prove Biblical prophecies are true. I was leading into a discussion of logic in this regard: if Biblical scriptures are true, those scriptures were divinely inspired, and therefore God exists. Finally, if God exists, we were created, not evolved; given our own right to choose our own fate based on the evidence provided; and can expect a great future beyond the grave.

I also stated, Danoff, that those scriptures were very specific, and not generalized.

Zechariah 8:7-8: This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God." We know that the Jews have been dispersed throughout the world since they were a province of Rome up until after World War II, after which they became a nation once more. If we are desperately stretching prophecy, I implore you to tell me how that scripture is vague. This is just like when Israel was in Babylonian captivity and the temple was destroyed. King Xerxes gave Nehemiah, a Jewish prophet, the right to go back to Jerusulem to rebuild the city, gave him the supplies and provided him with safe passage on his journey. In the 1940s Britain helped pave the way for a Jewish nation and ever since we've given them aid. God has been faithful to them; and through the promises of the New Testement, we all now have that ability. I look to the promises, not in avoiding punishment.

Isaiah 43:5-6: "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…" Jews were forced out of Arab countries upon the establishment of the nation of Israel, many of the new Israel citizens had escaped the Holocaust in Europe, they came from Russia, and in the latter part of the 1900s Israel struck a deal with Ethiopa (Communists) to allow Ethiopian Jews to move back to Israel. Therefore, the Communists' government did not "hold them back".

How vague is that?

[Edit] My point is to show that the Bible is true. If so, the message is more than just living "good". The message is to know that there is a God, that Jesus is his Son, and what we can expect. It does not mean that Christians will have a better life than anyone else, as "it rains on the just and the unjust", but that we can expect to be forgiven, saved, and rewarded for our faithfulness in God. Much of the rest of the Bible is to guide us and show us where we came from.

 

[code_kev]

Therefore, I have received much more as proof that just trying to prove Biblical prophecies are true. I was leading into a discussion of logic in this regard: if Biblical scriptures are true, those scriptures were divinely inspired, and therefore God exists.

Just a quickie as I'm in a rush.

Honestly, that makes no sense. A prophecy is easy, all you do is say something, and as it's not even a prediction, you don't even need to give a date. It can happen when ever. So you wait...and wait...and chances are, something similar enough to make a connection will happen. You've got crack pots who drew pictures years ago fortelling events, and some of these pictures have been able to match them up to events that happened afterwards, does this make them a God? No, it just makes them nuts.

Luck and coincedence.

How vague is that?

For a God, very.

I have had enough of my own experiences in my own life to know that God exists, the Bible is true and that I know what to expect when I die

I'm the exact opposite.

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Just a quickie as I'm in a rush.

Honestly, that makes no sense. A prophecy is easy, all you do is say something, and as it's not a prediction, you don't even need to give a date. So you wait...and wait...and chances are, something similar enough to make a connection will happen. You've got crack pots who drew pictures years ago fortelling events, and some of these pictures have been able to match them up to events that happened afterwards, does this make them a God? No, it just makes them nuts.

It's the consistency of the Bible over time to be correct in matters of prophecy. Old Testement prophecies came true in both Old and New Testement times, as New Testement prophecies validate the Old Testement and still come true today. The Bible through many books validates itself and validates our future. What other book today has had such a collaboration of various writers over centuries of time speaking a common theme?

 

[Dave A]

Just a quickie as I'm in a rush.

Honestly, that makes no sense. A prophecy is easy, all you do is say something, and as it's not even a prediction, you don't even need to give a date. It can happen when ever. So you wait...and wait...and chances are, something similar enough to make a connection will happen. You've got crack pots who drew pictures years ago fortelling events, and some of these pictures have been able to match them up to events that happened afterwards, does this make them a God? No, it just makes them nuts.

Luck and coincedence..

Do you understand the prophecty of Isiah that prediced when Jesus would be born and when Jerusalem would be rebuilt? I doubt it, did you know that a long time before Babylon was destroyed it was fortold that a mna named Cyrus would capture it, who captured Babylon, Cyrus. That's a lot of coincidence and luck, and yes thoes prophecies are from dated scroll's that were written before the event's occured.

 

[Danoff]

Zechariah 8:7-8: This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God." We know that the Jews have been dispersed throughout the world since they were a province of Rome up until after World War II, after which they became a nation once more. If we are desperately stretching prophecy, I implore you to tell me how that scripture is vague. This is just like when Israel was in Babylonian captivity and the temple was destroyed. King Xerxes gave Nehemiah, a Jewish prophet, the right to go back to Jerusulem to rebuild the city, gave him the supplies and provided him with safe passage on his journey. In the 1940s Britain helped pave the way for a Jewish nation and ever since we've given them aid. God has been faithful to them; and through the promises of the New Testement, we all now have that ability.

Does it say when? Does it say for how long? Does it say who exactly qualifies as his people ? I would argue that this has not come true. There are still many Jewish people who are not in Jerusalem. At no point have all of the Jewish people in the world been in Jerusalem. What's more, they do not need to be "saved" from the countries of the east and west. Here's the summary from this "prophecy".

At some undisclosed time in the future some undisclosed number of jewish people will need saving from an unknown problem both to the east (somewhere east, we don't know exactly where) and to the west (again, the location is not given). And this undescribed group that requires saving of some sort will not necessarily require it both to the east and the west at the same time. This unknown quatity of Jews with an undescribed problem will then be alleviated of this problem in some way for an undetermined quantity of time and will, at some point, come to Jerusalem for an undisclosed quantity of time... and God will be faithful, in mysterious ways, that cannot be explained ahead of time.

There are few ways to say less.

Isaiah 43:5-6: "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…" Jews were forced out of Arab countries upon the establishment of the nation of Israel, many of the new Israel citizens had escaped the Holocaust in Europe, they came from Russia, and in the latter part of the 1900s Israel struck a deal with Ethiopa (Communists) to allow Ethiopian Jews to move back to Israel. Therefore, the Communists' government did not "hold them back".

Ok "give them up" and "do not hold them back" are exactly the same thing. And we don't even know if it's necessary to say this because it doesn't actually say that they're being held back.

Here's the summary.

All Jewish people in the world will end up in Jerusalem at some point simultaneously.

That hasn't happened.

 

[Danoff]

Do you understand the prophecty of Isiah that prediced when Jesus would be born and when Jerusalem would be rebuilt? I doubt it, did you know that a long time before Babylon was destroyed it was fortold that a mna named Cyrus would capture it, who captured Babylon, Cyrus. That's a lot of coincidence and luck, and yes thoes prophecies are from dated scroll's that were written before the event's occured.

Again, please provide actual quotes. I asked this of you earlier and you seem to have refused. Please back up these claims with original text (preferably translated).

 

[dahze_dichriste]

You raise very good points in the matter of time frame, waiting for the event to happen, and the lack of all jews being in Israel.

What the Bible does with prophecy is it does set up a timeline, but not one with specific dates. Through prophecy one could put in line many many events throughout history that have had to come to pass before another prophecy could be fulfilled. The Bible says that no man knows the exact return of Jesus. Therefore, the prophecies were given to show us the events that will take place so that we can over time be ready. Much like the parable of the ten virgins. Keeping plenty of oil in our lamps for the return of Jesus is really continually studying the scriptures and following the prophecies. [edit]If we stopped studying the prophecies and counting off the ones that have come true, we would become discouraged and doubt the truth of the scriptures. Following the timeline of the prophecies keeps us ready.

 

[Danoff]

You raise very good points in the matter of time frame, waiting for the event to happen, and the lack of all jews being in Israel.

What the Bible does with prophecy is it does set up a timeline, but not one with specific dates. Through prophecy one could put in line many many events throughout history that have had to come to pass before another prophecy could be fulfilled. The Bible says that no man knows the exact return of Jesus. Therefore, the prophecies were given to show us the events that will take place so that we can over time be ready. Much like the parable of the ten virgins. Keeping plenty of oil in our lamps for the return of Jesus is really continually studying the scriptures and following the prophecies. [edit]If we stopped studying the prophecies and counting off the ones that have come true, we would become discouraged and doubt the truth of the scriptures. Following the timeline of the prophecies keeps us ready.

Or they could just tell us right? I mean God knows when Jesus will return right? So he could just let us know. What reason might there be to keep a prophecy vague? Hmmm.... let me ponder on that one for a moment. Oh, I know!! To make sure that nobody can say it's false!

Let me ask you this, what would convince you that those prophecies are false? Figure out what would have had to happen for you to question their validity and ask yourself how likely that would be.

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Danoff, let me ask you this: If you knew the exact date you would die, how would you act?

If we knew the exact time Jesus would return, I would be tempted to live any which way and abuse the message of salvation and forgiveness to sneak in a day or two in advance. We were blessed with hints, not cursed with crockpot predictions. Because we weren't given specific dates, we still must make a decision for ourselves based upon the evidence given. That's an explanation that lines up with scripture on how we are to trust in God, trust His message and believe His Word is true. It's difficult for some to believe that what is written in the Bible could apply to their own life. Faith is a tough act for some people to accept, I understand that.

[Edit] Specific dates would make the process easy, and for whatever reason God didn't want the decision to be as easy as knowing the earth is round and we rotate around the sun. It all goes back to us not being robots. We have the will to choose, and the choice involves some unknowns. Not very scientific, but hey, God created the science we study.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, but we could at least get dates for the events leading up to Jesus's return right?

Did you do what I asked? Did you figure out what would have to have happened for you to believe that the prophecies were not in-fact true? What did you come up with?

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Did you do what I asked? Did you figure out what would have to have happened for you to believe that the prophecies were not in-fact true? What did you come up with?

Oh, I forgot about that. Could you restate that question, I am not sure what it is exactly you are asking?

 

[Danoff]

Oh, I forgot about that. Could you restate that question, I am not sure what it is exactly you are asking?

Think about what the prophecy says, and consider the most plausible scenario in history that would have invalidated the prophecy in your mind. Then determine how plausible that scenario is.

Here's an example scenario under which I think you would have been convinced that the prophecy was false:

All jewish people were killed by the Nazis after they conquered the world in WWII.

That may not be the most plausible scenario that would invalidate the prophecies in your mind, but if it was, you're then supposed to ask yourself how plausible it was when the prophecy was written that all people with any Jewish blood would be slaughtered.


The payoff:

If you can't come up with a scenario that sounds plausible for when the prophecy was written, then they were being too vague.

 

[dahze_dichriste]

OK, first off, if it was written in the Bible then it's true and could be completely plausible that all Jews would have been killed by the Nazis. I think that's the point in your question that I am struggling with. If you are asking me to modify a historical event in order to falsify a scriptural prophecy, only to then turn around and ask how likely it would be for that prophecy to come true...well, that's just pretending.

The prophecy I am thinking of deals with an event that has not yet happened. I believe there is a prophecy in Revelations stating that there will one day be peace in the Middle East and that the treaty will be drawn up from someone in present day Greece. Let's say that person is the Pope. And if I am following your question, I am supposed to pretend that the Catholic church disolves and there's no Pope. Well, the only logical course is that the solution will come from some other leader in Greece, religious leader or political.

If I am still not getting your question, I apologize. Apart from pretending, there's no other way I see of answering your question as this has turned into a debate about what is true, and not pretending things happened differently to prove them untrue.