Round 7 Replay Verification - all runs verified!

  • Thread starter Duke
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Pictures are not really good proof for a touch. It simply shows where the car is at that moment. That could be before or after the touch. We're talking here about thousanth of second. You must be damn lucky to catch that thousanth and see the touch itself.

Now, looking at the third picture, I notice that if you make a line following the car's line, you will barely touch the wall just in front. Now, concidering that Rico is turning at that moment, I think it's clearly a touch we have here. Speed drops proves it.
 
Ricolamb
that's exactly what we're doing Tony, we can't find any touch on photos...from any angle of cameras, it just SEEMS on the replay, the so little los of speed is certainly due to the curb, nothing more unless there's an invisible wall, cos I can see light among wall and car in every frigging photos, angle, camera :(
don't u think I checked it before sending? :( :( :(
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Rumblestrips don't cause speed drop, unless you're drifting on, the speed is calculated by the way the car looking, not the direction you're going. That's why we see so much variation while rallying. Your speed doesn't drop that much, it's the way it's being calculated by the game.
 
Mistral...it's the only GAME tool, and my only TOOL to see them...we couldn't check it in any other way...
and imho, as it was done in BC4, proposed by Arwin, only proofs coming from the game should be allowed

Speed drop happens (seen in VV's videos) not in the most close point among car and wall, but right AFTEr, that is to me or due to the curb, or due to a friggin invisible wall, wich should have been indicated by the submitter of the Race: GTWEB...
 
Mistral
Now, looking at the third picture, I notice that if you make a line following the car's line, you will barely touch the wall just in front. Now, concidering that Rico is turning at that moment, I think it's clearly a touch we have here. Speed drops proves it.
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I was turning, that's y the car doesn't hit the wall...
 
Arwin
Jmr's response is the correct one. I want you to look deep into your heart, Ron, and think whether now you aren't so eager to see this DNF follow through because it means GTPlanet has a shot at the title.
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Well i'm just as happy to see rules followed to the letter ... but I also would like to see GTP profit from this oversight .... damn right I would 👍


But this is not the way you want to beat an opponent, and there is no reason to be cruel about it. GTweb have been smug about it, and that is sad enough in itself. They shouldn't have needed something like this, and that they do, to me, means that they have lost. It is fine that they are strict about verifying replays, but the way they have behaved themselves about it does not match the high opinion I have had of them of the many previous years of BC and other competitions.
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But keep in mind also that in most comps there will be some smack talk! Rico has dished out his fair share of this also 👍
Alls fair in love and war .... This is a competition as in real life some people can get unlucky like Nigel mansell on last lap where he blew a wheel nut :indiff: thats life :)

Thanks for your opinion anyway mate ... sometimes we differ 👍
 
Remind :

3.1: All rules below are subject to replay verification by a Review Committee via normal in-game means. In the event that in-game means cannot clearly resolve the issue, additional means such as slow-motion video recording may be used at the discretion of the BC5 administration and the Review Committee.
 
Based on the 1st photo in Tony Randall's post, if it's an invisible wall, it was coded eggzactly over where the real wall is.
 
Ricolamb
that's just not ok with me Mistral...we had no way to check with VCR's only with games tools....
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The touch looks to me to be obvious to the naked eye from the quicktime video, and no one would have even started investigating it in the first place if it wasn't. Just from watching the QuickTime video I'd say that I'd give that run a 99% chance of being dirty. If I could check it via the analyzer (One of the Game's tools) I could tell with 100% certainty if it was a touch or not, but I'm NTSC so I can't. Phtomode doesn't mean anything at all since there is no guarnatee that it is even possible to stop it on the correct frame, for all we know photomode could skip ahead in 5 or 10 frame increments and it may not even be possible to stop it on the correct moment. For all the PAL guys just load the run into your analyzer and zoom in to max resolution, I'm just about positive that's you'll see a 2 km/h speed drop from one frame to the next under full acceleration.

The bottom line is, you brushed the wall, and you can't be man enough to admit it, and instead are pulling every excuse you can find including invisible walls and VCR inspections to say that it's not a touch. Just own up to it and earn everyone's respect instead of looking like a poor sport. Personally, I would much rather have our team earn our final standings than by having other team's run DQ'ed, whether that means we end up first or dead last.

The above comments have nothing to due with GT Planet gaining in the overall from the DQ of this run, I could care less which team (even our own) submitted this run. It's dirty and that's all there is to it. I felt the same way about the run that was DQ'ed in round 3 and that had no effect on our standing whatsoever.
 
CFM
The touch looks to me to be obvious to the naked eye from the quicktime video, and no one would have even started investigating it in the first place if it wasn't. Just from watching the QuickTime video I'd say that I'd give that run a 99% chance of being dirty. If I could check it via the analyzer (One of the Game's tools) I could tell with 100% certainty if it was a touch or not, but I'm NTSC so I can't. Phtomode doesn't mean anything at all since there is no guarnatee that it is even possible to stop it on the correct frame, for all we know photomode could skip ahead in 5 or 10 frame increments and it may not even be possible to stop it on the correct moment. For all the PAL guys just load the run into your analyzer and zoom in to max resolution, I'm just about positive that's you'll see a 2 km/h speed drop from one frame to the next under full acceleration.

The bottom line is, you brushed the wall, and you can't be man enough to admit it, and instead are pulling every excuse you can find including invisible walls and VCR inspections to say that it's not a touch. Just own up to it and earn everyone's respect instead of looking like a poor sport. Personally, I would much rather have our team earn our final standings than by having other team's run DQ'ed, whether that means we end up first or dead last.

The above comments have nothing to due with GT Planet gaining in the overall from the DQ of this run, I could care less which team (even our own) submitted this run. It's dirty and that's all there is to it. I felt the same way about the run that was DQ'ed in round 3 and that had no effect on our standing whatsoever.
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Nicely spoken here.

@ eggmann : That'd means there is no invisible wall then.


By the way, VV had closely looked at this section of the track (don't know if he did elsewhere), but he said there is no invisible wall at all. So it's a physical touch.

Believe me, I'm very sorry for you. :ill: I really don't like giving a DQ like this.
 
Let me add my two cents and say that: touches are not detected by "visual" contact with a barrier. They are detected by sudden (one frame) speed losses that can't be achieved any other way under the given conditions of throttle/brake/cornering. Where the barriers are drawn by the game and where contacts are detected by the game DO NOT LINE UP PERFECTLY. It's not an invisible wall, I can see the wall just fine, it's just that looking at closeup pictures to try to see the touch is ineffective, only the speed drop is the indicator of the touch. We all saw the pictures of the Civic at Opera Paris that was a foot or so into the guardrail with no contact, this is an extreme example of where the visual barrier and the programmed barrier are out of alignment. The "invisible wall" at GT3's SS Route 5 is another such example. THIS WALL IS NOT INVISIBLE. The 2kph speed drop in one frame is conclusive evidence of contact, and no amount of pictures or videos that either show or don't show "visual" contact can be conclusive.
 
@Rico: The speed drop can't be a reason of riding over the curb. If so we would never use them. ;) Anyway, honestly I can't understand the discussion if it is a touch or not. It is definitelly one. No invisible wall, nothing. I'm sorry and personally I hate those rules as this is no touch for me. Nothing would happen to the car in real life e.g. Doesn't matter anyway. The run is not with the rules and a DQ for the current rules.

I personally would like to see a penalty as we had it with Rudi and jimeez last BC. Dunno if this is stated to the rules. If not I'm not against in adding it now and give Rico maybe a penalty of 1 second? (Haven't looked at the resultstable before saying this.) This would be the best solution in my eyes.

I know what will come from some teams now. 'We would have send in other replays as well, if we'd know about that stuff', but I absolutely don't think it was Rico's intention. If so it would be sad though. So get them a penalty and we can race on!

@Ron: I completely agree on this BACKUP submissions. Bull****.
 
jmr
@Rico: The speed drop can't be a reason of riding over the curb. If so we would never use them. ;) Anyway, honestly I can't understand the discussion if it is a touch or not. It is definitelly one. No invisible wall, nothing. I'm sorry and personally I hate those rules as this is no touch for me. Nothing would happen to the car in real life e.g. Doesn't matter anyway. The run is not with the rules and a DQ for the current rules.

I personally would like to see a penalty as we had it with Rudi and jimeez last BC. Dunno if this is stated to the rules. If not I'm not against in adding it now and give Rico maybe a penalty of 1 second? (Haven't looked at the resultstable before saying this.) This would be the best solution in my eyes.

I know what will come from some teams now. 'We would have send in other replays as well, if we'd know about that stuff', but I absolutely don't think it was Rico's intention. If so it would be sad though. So get them a penalty and we can race on!

@Ron: I completely agree on this BACKUP submissions. Bull****.
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Giving him a penalty is maybe the worst thing to do. If we do so with Rico, then we will have to do the same with every other DQ. Rules are there to be totally respected.
 
No use complaining about the rules. Duke posted a draft of the rules and everyone was able to view them and make comments on what should be changed, and they were available for over 6 weeks. Plenty of time to make your opinion heard on what should be changed.

That being said, next BC the backup submissions should be eliminated. Everyone in a BC should know how to check a replay for legality. At the time I didn't notice it in the rules so I didn't complain before the rules were finalized, but that's my own fault for not reading them carefully enough.:ouch:
 
Mistral
Giving him a penalty is maybe the worst thing to do. If we do so with Rico, then we will have to do the same with every other DQ. Rules are there to be totally respected.
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Phew, I knew that would come. Give him a DQ then. Sportmen seem to be dead here. :crazy:
 
if this is the way it has to be...let it be...
I like your ways Jean, u're a fair guy ;)
and...u win for being fast and skilled, not like some others...
Mistral, it's a pity u represent GTweb, and so my comments about them are also on u, but I don't think u'll be too angry, after all, u're still winning a BC that ur team would never win in any other way...
I can't believe I'm getting a DQ for a wall I can't see :|
 
Honestly, I've seen the video. I have no way to review the actual in-game replay. But I have seen the 2 kph speed drop and to my eyes, as well as to nearly everybody else's, it coincides with the point of closest approach to the wall. Close enough, in fact, that it could well be a touch without any imagination.

Nobody is accusing you of not checking the replay, Rico, or even of trying to get away with anything. The fact that you indicated to me that you didn't want to use your fastest run shows me that you were trying to be careful.

But I have to go with the evidence I see and that evidence shows me that there is a touch, however slight. Believe me, I would love to have a way to accomodate you. I've resisted as many DQs as I can because I want this series won on course and not in the tech shed. But the rules were set by public review and the replay has been reviewed by public review. That was backed up with my own viewing of it in the only way I can.

I tried, in the initial draft of the rules, to have a penalty clause so that hot laps could accept such extremely minor brushes. But this was solidly voted down in the discussions that followed. The initial draft rules thread is still around; go look for it. Popular opinion stated that hot laps should be entirely clean, with the exception of Max's comments. I was more successful in having the penalties allowed for multi-lap and AI races.

Now, in the event, people are complaining and suggesting that we should have a penalty system... I now understand why nobody ever does this twice.
 
u did a great work with this BC, it's not ur fault Duke...
I should have been 1 mt on the left, GTIRn would have won, and no moaning would be done... :(
 
Mistral
We also have to say that the very first Board Challenge was hosted by the old-Racing-Line. God bless Andy-era. :(
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Was it? I thought it was hosted by the House...
 
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