Rule change suggestion

[Tedehur]

Further to the discussion going on in the WRS Pit stop and which started
here, at post #139, I suggest that from now on we allow discussing final times or posting replays during the week in the WRS.

Please read carefully the posts in the linked to thread before voting.
And please move the discussion to this thread rather than leaving it in the WRS Pit Stop thread.

 

[fasj6418]

i´m all for it. then i don´t need to send PM´s and stuff.

lets remember folks, once GT5 arrives, everybody will know top online times and probably will be able to watch the replay runs... so nowhere to hide then...

 

[Small_Fryz]

Im all for showing final times 👍

I will share my time and replays for all to see 👍

 

[Kent]

Dude, are you kidding?

For the last 3 years we've had a system that worked great and created a great atmosphere for racing.

You make this mistake and it will change the most basic premise of the WRS for the worse.

Please don't make the mistake of changing that one rule.

My vote:
No

And I strongly emphasize that. 👍

 

[Small_Fryz]

Kent, for nearly all of Div1, and most of Div2, we already know final times, and share replays (well i dont share replays, but i could get them if i wanted). The only people not knowing all this is guys not in the "loop". Its hardly far.

 

[Z]

Definitely approve of this, as I stated in the other thread. With all the advice given and allusions to final times in the threads anyway, it's a logical move, IMO.

Willing to share whatever I've got to bring to the table and then some.

 

[Mr P]

Its basically the same format that is being used successfully in the GTC at gt.de ... I think it will make people faster and push the combo limits to the max 👍

Sounds cool to me

 

[MisterWeary]

Dude, are you kidding?

For the last 3 years we've had a system that worked great and created a great atmosphere for racing.

You make this mistake and it will change the most basic premise of the WRS for the worse.

Please don't make the mistake of changing that one rule.

My vote:
No

And I strongly emphasize that. 👍

I respect your opinion but I'd like to hear some reasoning as to why it would be a mistake apart from "tradition". Right now I think it's an awesome idea 👍 One thing I've noticed is that quite often people join up, race once or twice, then disappear, if part of the reason for this is they don't feel part of the community then this would help rectify that in my opinion.

 

[Dave_George]

I voted "No" on this one.

Im with Kent, I think that keeping the final times secret keeps the WRS interesting and makes results day something to look forward to.

However, I think it will undoubtedly get voted in and (judging by the amount of "back door" discussion thats been going on week after week with blatant disregard to the "No discussion of final lap times" rule..) should have probably got implemented a long long time ago....

regards

David

 

[Jump_Ace]

👍 👍 👍 Finally, its getting discussed. In my experience in the wrs I tend to fall behind the pack at the end of my laps on occassion and it is because I can't calculate the last sector correctly to think about where I lose time. Sorry Kent, I'm in on this one

Jerome

 

[Clemi_uk]

Well i'm quite new to the WRS (Div2) and thus haven't been in the "loop" at all

Me and Celeron_266 had a good 'ol ding-dong in week 51 with him .087 ahead at T2, i had the slightly faster 3rd sector and won

Though it felt really good, i'm sure he would've liked to know my final laptime which would've pushed him a bit harder and as a result we both would've gained.

I say bring it on!👍

 

[Super T]

I'm still not sure which way to vote, I can see good and bad points for either argument.

Yes; if I downloaded Holl01's ghost replay on a wednesday I would undoubtedly get a faster time than I would have without it even though Dan would probably get a faster time than his original one by submission time, I'm never gonna beat his first attempt let alone final submission, (come on, the guys been invited to the world champs)!

But...

As somebody else mentioned, many of you guys are already doing it anyway via means outside of GTPlanet, there is obviously no way to police this and I don't particularly care who is or isn't. Then there is that little phrase "spirit of the rules" does all this total time and replay sharing break that code? The only way around that for those who are not privvy to it or don't agree with it is allowing the rule change.

Or is it...

Will the guys who do do it then just stop posting times during the week and just PM their final time in?

As far as I can tell, most of the really fast guys are more than willing to share set-up tips and driving guides anyway, (I have no doubt that without Holl01's set-up for the Subaru in week 55 I would have been alot slower).

Being able to view other peoples replays wouldn't help me at the moment, (max drive's been ordered on-line but it's going to take a couple of weeks to arrive,) those who don't have a replay device are still going to be in the dark as far as watching how the "pro's" do it but it seem's like it's been that way for a while anyway?

I guess I'm pulling towards the side for the rule change but hey, I'm new here.

 

[Dr_Watson]

personally i think blind times are more fun.
If i didn't like being in the dark i would have simply asked someone for their final time.
what's the worst thing that would happen.... they'd say no.
its not like this "backchannel" is some sort of cloak-and-dagger NSA wiretapping spy network out to fix the race.
If that were the case, people wouldn't have gotten so bent out of shape the last week when they overlooked iceman's WMD stockpile.
anyway... i'm getting off on too much aliteration.
I voted no, because clearing the fog of war ruins the thread for those of us who like the blind times... but leaving it the way it is accomodates everyone.
(those that want bonus information can get it, those that don't, aren't forced to see behind the curtain)

 

[SHigSpeed]

Wow... Interesting discussion here... I don't know which way to go really. On the one hand, it is fun to have some mystery to it, but on the other hand, it would be nice to have a target to shoot for.

That said, if I beat everyone to the last T-Time, I'm gonna have a good chance to beat them overall and I don't mind waiting 'till the results to find out.

I say leave it be, but it looks like I may be overruled. Of course there's still gonna be no rule that says you HAVE to post final times, right? Then again I'd hate to be in the place of Ben and Francisco recently...

-SHig

 

[sausages]

I'm now only an occaisonal participant in the WRS but I've been in since the first few weeks of the GT4 "season" and have never been "in the loop". I must say I have read the comments with great interest and have been somewhat surprised at how widespread this so-called "back-channel" discussion of lap times and sharing of replays actually is.

Estimations of "most of [the participants]" or 90%+ (in div1/2) engaging in this activity have made me think two things:
1) why am I bothering when most of the competitors have free access to supposedly advantageous inside information?
2) I feel better about my totally average performance (mostly mid div2) - and even better about my podium results, since I always raced "in the dark".

But is this right?
I always chased sector times that were posted and could see already where I needed to improve - in essence, the full lap time would just be the final sector time for me at least. Viz. I already know I need to be faster in sector 1 and the final time would just be more dispiriting - an even bigger mountain to climb. If I could have given any more time to improving then I would - knowing the final lap time would have made little difference to me. Chasing ghosts or viewing superfast laps (for better lines and whatnot) might be more useful but I'm not sure.

The question is - how big an advantage is it to have access to full lap times and replays? We already have targets to reach and I can assume that if, say, ROB 256R is .2 seconds faster than me in sectors 1 and 2 then he's probably .2 seconds faster in the final sector. We can all view replays freely after the event and see where we went wrong and lost time - surely that should be enough to learn from in the long run if we really wanted to?

On the other hand, if "nearly everyone" is trading lap times except for a few like me who don't do msn or whatever, then I can't see the reason for keeping the rules as they are. It's essentially like some arcane law that exists but nobody adheres to because it's ridiculous. I am rather baffled though that I could have followed this series for a year and still not know that people are doing this all the time - is it some sort of secret club? Why bother posting in the weekly T-times discussion thread and pretending if you all know each others final positions anyway? Is it just for the benefit of us 3 or 4 people who don't know about it? In light of the explicit rules about posting laptimes should this be viewed as a breach of the rules as much as an off? There's been a lot of talk recently about submitting without posting T-times or setup being unsportsmanlike, but how does that square with deliberately flaunting another (far more solid) rule about not discussing certain information? Maybe you should say "No discussion of lap times >here<, but go >here< and you can talk about it all you want?

I'd like to vote "no" but what's the point if everyone does it?
In the end, if there was a "don't know" option I would probably vote that - but since that probably amounts to a "yes" vote I'm going to abstain for now and read the ensuing discussion before making up my mind, though I'm swaying towards "yes" because of the rampant disregard for this rule which exists anyway and will continue to exist whichever way this goes.

 

[steven]

i say: let's keep a bit of the mistery in wrs by publishing t-times but keeping laptimes to ourselves. the argument of having something to aim at is unvalid imo: you have t-times as a good indication of where you stand.
honestly i dont understand what the fuss is about - admitting i didnt follow the entire discussion in the pitstop - but i also dont want to unqualify other persons wishes.
i hope the verdict by our beloved cyril will be based on more than 20 votes only.
truly yours.

 

[Mr P]

I'm going to abstain for now and read the ensuing discussion before making up my mind, though I'm swaying towards "yes" because of the rampant disregard for this rule which exists anyway and will continue to exist whichever way this goes.

Backchannel MSN talk and trading of xport/maxdrive saves has been going on since WRS GT3
There's 'No way to police it mate'! .... its not what you know! ... but more who you know and who's on your contacts to be honest?

Lots of people trade and push out faster times with this method ... easy solution to a situation like this is if you cant beat em then join em ... backchannel

I can see where you are coming from though as someone who only just heard about it ... must be like a slap in the face!
.. just install msn and get a maxdrive and join em ... the competition is still there!

... but with an extra push to the line 👍

 

[ROB 256R]

Call me naive but it honestly never occured to me that 'back door' lap time discussion and replay swapping went on. I actually feel cheated. 👎 There's no doubt an extra incentive, and probably a faster time, can be gained by knowing other peoples exact lap times. I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. I'll stick to honest racing thanks. Unless of course the rules allow such discussion in which case i would have no problems with it then.

 

[MinorShunt]

Well I can't say I've never done any backchanneling, 'cause I have. But it's mostly limited to "I have this time, what's yours." kinda stuff. I don't chase other peoples ghosts. Period. I do watch them after the fact though. Sometimes I'll tell someone my final time, sometimes not. It depends on who it is, and where I am on the leaderboard. If I think I am in the running for a podium, most likely I won't say what my final time is. But that's just me.

One week SHig and I communicated back and forth on a mission to prevent an Aussie sweep at the top of D1 because they were being so damned arrogant about it. TBH, we had a lot of fun that week, and helped each other just by providing motivation to keep at it.
I do tend to avoid MSN on Monday nights because I really don't know who is going to win, and I really don't want to know till results are out, and everyone on MSN just wants to know what your time is. Again, that's just me.

It's true that a lot of race series other than WRS you can post your final time, a replay, etc. IMO, the fact that we can't do it in WRS is one of the attractive aspects of the series. If you want to play it straight up and not backchannel, there is always that little bit of doubt as to where you will finish that makes results day exciting for me. Case in point was the week 48??? race at autumn mini. I had 2 good laps, was at the top of the leaderboard, Dan said he had submitted, and I had the win all sewed up right? Nope. fasj put in a fine effort last minute, and tweaked me at the end. Bravo! He was faster. He worked hard and got the win. He didn't know my time, I didn't know his. My point is that I personally find it more interesting not to know results until Cyril posts it. Knowing a final time doesn't motivate me more or less. What motivates me is the quest for the perfect lap. I've never gotten one, and I've never seen one, (although several I've seen are close!) but someday I would like to finally say, "That's as good as it gets. That lap can't be done any better!" That....... would be sweet! 👍

So if people want to backchannel, fine. It honestly doesn't bother me in the least. Go for it if that's your bag. But don't go whining when you get beat, that other people aren't "sportsmanlike" because they didn't post splits, etc. etc. when you were backchanneling to beat 80 and were sure you had the win all wrapped in a pretty ribbon for you. That's a bit like the kettle calling the pot black don't you think?
Put in the effort, take your best shot, and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes you might win, most times not. Plain and simple nothing is for sure, and life's not exactly fair is it? ..........IMO.


I vote no. 👍

 

[Mr P]

All said and done guys I want to stipulate that I aint a back channeler either

I just know of its existence I'm a guy who works my own stuff .. I have however grabbed 1st place ghosts from the gt.de license database though! .. which in all fairness is basically a frontchannel

so I guess I'm a front channeler and I dont feel ashamed of myself one bit

 

[Laurence5905]

I voted "No" on this one.

Im with Kent, I think that keeping the final times secret keeps the WRS interesting and makes results day something to look forward to.

I voted "yes" myself...

Yes, there are some cases in which it would "ruin" the surprise, but I think that most of the time it wouldn't. Who's to say that the winner of any given week will post anything at all? There are lots of folks who post nothing, and just send in their final times to Flat-out. Those are always a surprise...

And even someone who posts all week long could easily do a last-minute run to try and beat the times that have been posted, thus surprising everyone with their new time...

So, no I don't think that, overall, anything would be ruined by discussing lap-times or uploading replays. I think it will make the competition more fierce, and the times closer together... And it will move the "back-channel" discussions to the forefront, where everyone can see them, not just those few who've chosen to get on MSN and chat about it. Far more fair, in my opinion... (Especially to "newbies" who barely have a clue about any of this stuff, let alone a back-channel that they have to discover by accident. I certainly didn't know such a thing existed 'till just recently, and I've been here for 10 or 11 weeks now.)

My initial reaction to this proposal, was "no way will I support this." But then I got to thinking about it, and realized that it really won't change much, other than giving folks a better idea of what it takes to win in a given week. It will definitely make the competition tighter, and that benefits us all. So I changed my mind and voted "yes." I hope everyone else will give it some serious thought before voting their first "knee-jerk" reaction.

(I also hope we don't wind up with a 50/50 split -- that would be the worst thing of all, because then half the drivers here will resent the outcome, no matter what that outcome is. Not good...)

[EDIT] I would change my vote to keep things the way they are if, like sausages suggests, we make the so-called back-channel "public." The rules should clearly state, "There is no lap-time discussion or replay-posting on the GTP forums before the deadline, but if you want to, you can go _here_ to do it." _Here_ should link to a page with instructions on how to download MSN and where to go or what to do on MSN once you've downloaded it. That way, everyone would know how to access this "back-channel." (I still don't know HOW to get to the "back-channel," despite the fact that I've known of its existence for a couple of weeks now. Of course, I didn't ASK anyone how to get there, either... So I'm not saying it was deliberatly hidden from me -- I'm not saying that at all!)

So either change the rules to make the discussions public, or let everyone know how to access the "private" discussions. I guess that pretty much sums up what I'm trying to say. [/EDIT]

 

[Super T]

Back channels, front channels, is this turning into some sort of specialist website? Not sure my browser allows that sort of thing?

I didn't even realize this sort of thing went on, I kinda wish I hadn't found out now, it all seems a bit "unsporting" (not going to make me popular, hey ho). Set-up tips and driving guides are one thing but if there was a Div 1 ghost available to chase around it would undoubtedly improve my times!

IMHO

 

[Kent]

I'm sorry everyone, didn't mean to stir the pot.

Basically, I'm stubborn about change.

I've seen the back channel discussion and understand the way it drives competition. If the WRS wishes to move onto a new format I would not leave. The GTP is my home page so the wrs is kind of like a backyard to me- a place that never moves but always changes.

My objection to the new rule was founded in tradition and personal prefference. Does the current system really hold back drivers? I always thought of it as a great way to push rivals and leave room for suprise wins (of any form).

Switching over to the open final times format would move the gtp and the wrs one step closer to being just like any other gt forum.
The wrs is different from other challenges thanks to its unique division and time discussion rules. Bringing times up front would change the character of the wrs.
Knowing T times is enough to show each racer where they stand each week.
Openly discussing times on the gtp in the wrs would be more like ignoring a formality than helping slower racers.

If nothing else, I would like to hear the opinions of maxdrive equipped D2 and D3 racers. 👍


At any rate, I could be wrong here about wanting to keep the old system. Fortunately, for the sake of all those who wish to bring their final time discussions to the front channel there is a poll- my vote is one.

All's well here, may the changes of tomorrow be great indeed.
Have as you will everyone.
I should not be one to stand in the way of the wrs populus ( ).
(steps down)

Sorry for the rant everyone.
Best wishes.
Hoping to catch a race soon but we'll see.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Just to make it clear, I have very rarely every chased a faster ghost mid week. I dont download that stuff unless its generally accepted. Only a few times in WRS have i done it. The only "back channel" that i know is final times, which is kinda hard to aviod when its in their msn names, plus 9/10 times if im behind their T2/T3 then im behind their final time, i guess it just makes it a definete.

You cant stop the backchanneling.

 

[shockwaveracing]

because clearing the fog of war ruins the thread for those of us who like the blind times... but leaving it the way it is accomodates everyone.
(those that want bonus information can get it, those that don't, aren't forced to see behind the curtain)

where did you "lift" that quote from...

other than that, i dun care which way this vote goes, i will still have a chat with Weary and Casio during the week to see how fast we are in all the racing that we do...

 

[Kent]

because clearing the fog of war ruins the thread for those of us who like the blind times... but leaving it the way it is accomodates everyone.
(those that want bonus information can get it, those that don't, aren't forced to see behind the curtain)

Where did you get this?
Excellent words for one perspective in this discussion. 👍

 

[Dr_Watson]

where did you "lift" that quote from...

© 2006 Timothy j. Flammger "Dr_Watson"

 

[holl01]

i vote YES, we should discuss everything about the race, including final lap times, i dont see why its nesessary to conceal the lap times, as most people know what others are doing anyway through msn for example

 

[Dave_George]

If you cannot stop the backchanneling as some have suggested then this simply has to get voted in...

Otherwise what is the point in posting a thread for a weeks racing here that says "No discussion of final lap times" when it is going to happen anyway.

Im with the others here such as Kent, Sausages, ROB256R etc for all the reasons they mentioned and that I personally like the format the way it is.

I only hope that whatever happens it doesnt damage the WRS and that the figure of participating drivers goes up and not down as each week goes by....

David

 

[MisterWeary]

I think it's easy to see how a backchannel started, it's simply the instant communication of MSN versus the slow communication of GTP. What started as innocent discussion about "how can I get to T1 faster" turned into "how do you do the final sector". Without public accountability for your comments it's not an easy task to withhold information from friends in a 1-on-1 chat. I honestly feel bad that people feel cheated by this but the whole reason I add people or accept people into my MSN friends list stems from the fact we have a common interest and in this case...they love GT, hence GT discussion is inevitable.

The reason I race is I like pushing myself to the limit and improving my skills and I saw this backchannel helpful in achieving that. My intention has never been to "get an edge" over competitors who are "out of the loop" because it doesn't really bother me where I place, but it would be naive of me to think that I haven't received an edge. I feel bad that others feel cheated by this, and I would be completely happy to "try to" close the backdoor race discussion from my end, but surely you can see that complete closure of this is impossible. I can certainly avoid discussion of obvious no-no's like lap times and final sector times but if Brad has a split on the board that is 0.05 faster than me, some discussion about our laps is pretty likely to occur.

I honestly would like everyone to reach their limit every week. I have no desire to help only myself and a "select" few, I'm interested in helping everyone reach their limit. It disappoints me to see people sign up, race once and then disappear. That's why I think open discussion and replay posting in the race thread would be a good thing 👍

But it appears that changing the whole WRS system has a chance of driving out long time competitors and I'd rather it stayed the way it is than see that happen. I think we have a pretty neat community and that's more important to me than the structure of the series. I'll be racing here regardless of how it works but I think it would be wrong to think of this backchannel thing as a black and white issue or a conscious and blatant attempt to disregard rules.