Rule change suggestion

[Dave_George]

But it appears that changing the whole WRS system has a chance of driving out long time competitors and I'd rather it stayed the way it is than see that happen. I think we have a pretty neat community and that's more important to me than the structure of the series.

Agreed:tup:

I think it would be wrong to think of this backchannel thing as a black and white issue or a conscious and blatant attempt to disregard rules.

How else can you look at it? - Imagine how newcomers to the WRS might feel by finding out things like this? (and several not so newcomers)

OK its been going on since the year dot and you cant stop it etc etc, but it doesnt matter which way you look at it, its still a disregard of the rules that are posted up each and every week in the WRS threads (and an un-sportsmanlike disregard at that). The guys who chat on msn could still leave final lap times out of their discussion that way showing respect for the people here at gtp who are genuinely trying to find time the honest way.

Im sorry but I have tried looking at it in a number of ways, even stood on my hands and spun my head round three times and it still seems wrong to me.

regards

David

 

[holl01]

I think it's easy to see how a backchannel started, it's simply the instant communication of MSN versus the slow communication of GTP. What started as innocent discussion about "how can I get to T1 faster" turned into "how do you do the final sector". Without public accountability for your comments it's not an easy task to withhold information from friends in a 1-on-1 chat. I honestly feel bad that people feel cheated by this but the whole reason I add people or accept people into my MSN friends list stems from the fact we have a common interest and in this case...they love GT, hence GT discussion is inevitable.

The reason I race is I like pushing myself to the limit and improving my skills and I saw this backchannel helpful in achieving that. My intention has never been to "get an edge" over competitors who are "out of the loop" because it doesn't really bother me where I place, but it would be naive of me to think that I haven't received an edge. I feel bad that others feel cheated by this, and I would be completely happy to "try to" close the backdoor race discussion from my end, but surely you can see that complete closure of this is impossible. I can certainly avoid discussion of obvious no-no's like lap times and final sector times but if Brad has a split on the board that is 0.05 faster than me, some discussion about our laps is pretty likely to occur.

I honestly would like everyone to reach their limit every week. I have no desire to help only myself and a "select" few, I'm interested in helping everyone reach their limit. It disappoints me to see people sign up, race once and then disappear. That's why I think open discussion and replay posting in the race thread would be a good thing 👍

But it appears that changing the whole WRS system has a chance of driving out long time competitors and I'd rather it stayed the way it is than see that happen. I think we have a pretty neat community and that's more important to me than the structure of the series. I'll be racing here regardless of how it works but I think it would be wrong to think of this backchannel thing as a black and white issue or a conscious and blatant attempt to disregard rules.

u highlited a few phrases using the quatoation marks, some of ur little quotation marks were unnescessary and made u look too sarcastic, post better in future

edit, kidding, u couldnt have said it any better

 

[Tyre King]

I voted 'No', but I would like to qualify it though, if I may?

I think that the posting of replays should not be allowed. ( and should also be discouraged STRONGLY in back-channels, although it will still go on.)

But the discussion of full lap times should be allowed, and so, should level the playing field for the newer members. And bring on a faster, more competative, more realistic WRS!

As has been stated earlier on in this thread, lap-time discussion goes on in the back-channel anyway, and for driver's without the amount of friends that long term driver's have, it is a distinct disadvantage.
I have done it myself in the past, but not with replays involved. And it does encourage you to try harder, push for that extra tenth of a second, hit that particular barrier.

In real life racing, the competition know what each other's times are, but they don't follow each other round the track learning what the faster guy's are doing, do they?

It will not encourage cheating, IMO, as has also been said previously, if a cheater is stupid enough to post a fast time that needs a replay to be provided he will be found out. And very quickly too!

Also if this gets voted in, then I would suggest that:

ALL drivers with a replay device MUST post a replay in the results thread, and those without one, or who refuse, will not gain points on the leaderboard until they have one.

That will stop the cheater's (not that I am saying anyone regular or long term is one) dead in their tracks!

So in conclusion.

Allow full lap-time discussion, but not replay posting.

My 2 cents worth

Neil

 

[Small_Fryz]

its still a disregard of the rules that are posted up each and every week in the WRS threads (and an un-sportsmanlike disregard at that). The guys who chat on msn could still leave final lap times out of their discussion that way showing respect for the people here at gtp who are genuinely trying to find time the honest way.

Im sorry but I have tried looking at it in a number of ways, even stood on my hands and spun my head round three times and it still seems wrong to me.

regards

David

Maybe the rules need to be changed? Unsportsman disregard for the rules? Of course everytime i chat on msn I think of ways to decieve and gain an edge of every other WRS racer. Thats why i hide every thing, except to a select few in my OLR contact list (which is around 50 - 60 people from all different forums). The only difference to people on msn and you fellow GTP'ers are my final time, every other tip/setup/trick i post/share. I wouldnt hesitate to post my final times and replays in the thread for all to see, ive got nothing to hide, but im not sure exactly what Cyril would do if I did that. Maybe you should allow it and then who ever wants to can and who ever doesnt want to doesnt post them. About the only thing going for the current WRS format is the "suprise" you get at the results, Which you can still get even if we change to final times. People like fasj can still post at the last minute and not share any times through out the week and people like me and Dan can post full times and replays for all to see. I frankly dont see why people dont like this.

I think the rules should be changed. Fair enough i could stop talking and asking for final times on msn, but thats not gonna solve the issue at hand. Many will still do it, all that does is make guys who are too lazy/cant be bothered or simply dont want to get msn/pm someone asking for final times, feel better.

Obviously the rule is getting broken and it cant be stoped, so change it to make it fair for everybody, because frankly if you dont change it, then fine, people out of the loop will be disadvantaged and people in the loop will carry on just like before. I've never turned down a msn request or PM asking for help/replays.

 

[Super T]

I can't help it but I do feel cheated, sorry. Posting times is not going help me much because I can usually tell from the splits how far behind I am anyway. Replays and ghost data would undoubtedly help though, you could use them to see EXACTLY where things are going wrong, not just which sectors you are slower but which lines and corner speeds.

Maybe it's just a touch of sour grapes on my part, I still have no replay device and I am well and truly out of the loop as far as back-channeling's concerned. I have nothing but respect for the guys at the top, they are usually the first ones back with settings and advice, but it would be nice if the playing field was leveled a bit.

I'm thinking don't change the rule, but say go >here< for further discussion on times and replays etc?? (Not my idea, I stole it from previous posts, but seems to be the most agreeable solution so far?)

Still very new to GTPlanet as a whole, even newer to the WRS, this seems to be dividing the racers 50/50 at the moment, I'd hate to see the WRS fall apart over something most of us never knew about until a few days ago?

 

[Small_Fryz]

I can't help it but I do feel cheated, sorry. Posting times is not going help me much because I can usually tell from the splits how far behind I am anyway. Replays and ghost data would undoubtedly help though, you could use them to see EXACTLY

I can understand you mate, and I did feel a bit funny when i found out about back channel also. Not everyone on back channel shares replays, its only a few who do to my knowledge, i personally dont like to unless im really really stuck, because replays generally dont help me unless im many seconds off the pace, as my replay and Dan's replay generally look extremely similar just that he is 5kph faster in the corners, his lines and braking points are pretty much always the same. Its just that he takes each corner sligtly faster which adds up over the course of a lap. If you were1.5 - 3+ seconds behind then watching a replay should help a fair bit as you will be doing something blatently wrong and will be able to fix it, but once your only .3 - .4 - .6 behind replays dont help much at all (for me anyway).

So i choose not to view them unless its stipulated in the thread rules, and posted in the thread (GTRP for example). Or if im really really stuck.

 

[Super T]

If you were1.5 - 3+ seconds behind then watching a replay should help a fair bit as you will be doing something blatently wrong and will be able to fix it, but once your only .3 - .4 - .6 behind replays dont help much at all (for me anyway).

I agree, it's probably not helping the quick guys that much, it's those final tenths of a second that are usually the most elusive.

But someone like me who is usually 10+ seconds off of the ultimate pace could really use this type of help. If it were available to me I would use it, but why should I if it's not available to all??

 

[Tedehur]

30 votes so far, and a perfect balance : 15 'Yes' and 15 'No'.
After having read every post, my plan so far is to leave it the way it is : no discussion allowed in the thread.
In this way, people who don't want to know what everybody else's laptimes are are not forced to see them in the posts.
Yet, now that everybody is aware that there is some backchannel going on where they can find any information that can't be posted in the thread, it's very easy for them to join the backchannel since they just need to find a post by someone who uses it already and click on his MSN logo to add him to their contacts.

Unless the result of the votes dramatically changes over the week-end I think that'll be my decision.

 

[Kent]

I think one thing to remember is how many people here have the option of backchannel chats, the way in which we become involved in those back channel chats, and just what they can do for us.

All of us who have a friend in the WRS can back channel.
I was doing it "Miata13b" before I had a replay transfer device or any sort of title at the gtp.

Simply knowing how fast people are doesn't mean you will become faster. Only you can make yourself faster... Otherwise there would be no challenge to gold license runs (since you know the time to beat and have replays to view).

Without a maxdrive, most people wouldn't even be able to take advantage of back channel discussion.
Oddly though, most people who buy maxdrives for this are already backchanneling.

To me the bottom line is:
Backchanneling has always been here but has never been the basis for changing a fundamental rule of the WRS.

Once again though, I want to go back to what I said earlier...
What came first, the fast replay or the fast racer?

Fast replays because they show us how to become fast?
Fast racers because they create the fast replays?
(just a fun thought to provoke discussion about why backchanneling seems to make fast racers)

I see backchanneling and replay transfers as behavior of dedicated GT racers who have always sought out that sort of atmosphere on their own.
Usually the most dedicated racers are the fastest racers as well. So, is it the behavior that makes them fast or are they fast on their own?

To me this all kinda seems like a handful of racers trying to change the WRS to meet their ideals, not a format change for the sake of slower racers (who in all likelyhood would not recieve any benefit from the change because they don't have transfer devices and if they do they are probably already on backchannels for the racing they are most interested in).

Finally I just want to mention that I don't believe in cheating and all that but discussing final lap times will certainly make it easier for cheaters.
Knowing the competitions times will give a cheater the chance to just barely beat out rivals or slide in at the top of the no replay needed times.
Knowing final times will also make it really easy for fast racers to deny underdogs their un-expected victories because they see how little the underdog is winning by and decide to make one last run and don't give up until they've beat the underdog's time.
(same for rivals in their wins) (with t times only though, there is a chance for mystery and honest suprise wins during every competition whether it be D1, 2, 3, or just rivals)

My bottom line:
I don't like the change but if the wrs and the gtp see this as the way to go then so be it.
I will not oppose the general will of the wrs and the gtp.

However, for now it seems like this is a split issue.

Oh and I forgot one final thing...
If final times are discussed openly I see no point is an honor system as it would certainly result in the possible "sliding under the radar cheating." With that in mind, replays would become a necessity for anyone racing in the wrs (simply because the ability to cheat would be to great to ignore).

 

[Luxy]

A very interesting discussion ...

I've been aware of the backchannel for quite a while (since GT3 days, iirc), and I've occasionally discussed lap times, but never shared replays. For me too, it was an if you can't beat 'em, join 'em sort of thing.

I personally enjoy the little head to head battles that can happen - pushing and being pushed - by knowing a final lap time. It's more fun and more rewarding than a suprise result. I know some of you feel differently, and that's fair enough.

Part of the original intent when Boombexus started the WRS was to be open, welcoming and helpful to all drivers. I think sharing lap times and replays (as well as tips, tuning, etc.) helps everyone to learn and improve - even the fast players (it also helps to dispel the mystique of 'aliens', when everyone knows that they don't pull their times from thin air, but have information/inspiration from their fellow racers, just like everyone else). I love watching two drivers trade laps back and forth, one-upping each other, even when I'm not involved. I think everyone's missing out when all of that action is taking place backchannel, not only in advantage, but in enjoyment also.

If replays and lap times aren't allowed to be posted, I think the suggestion above to mention that a backchannel exists in a highly visible spot is a good one. Why not add a section to the stickied FAQ and newbie threads, explaining what's happening, and how to do so, if you're interested?

Anyway, there's my $0.02

 

[Tedehur]

replays would become a necessity for anyone racing in the wrs (simply because the ability to cheat would be to great to ignore).

I didn't mention it, but yeah, it'd be another step forward to making replays compulsory, and I think we forget too easily that it's only a game.

 

[Kent]

Part of the original intent when Boombexus started the WRS was to be open, welcoming and helpful to all drivers. I think sharing lap times and replays (as well as tips, tuning, etc.) helps everyone to learn and improve - even the fast players (it also helps to dispel the mystique of 'aliens', when everyone knows that they don't pull their times from thin air, but have information/inspiration from their fellow racers, just like everyone else). I love watching two drivers trade laps back and forth, one-upping each other, even when I'm not involved. I think everyone's missing out when all of that action is taking place backchannel, not only in advantage, but in enjoyment also.

If replays and lap times aren't allowed to be posted, I think the suggestion above to mention that a backchannel exists in a highly visible spot is a good one. Why not add a section to the stickied FAQ and newbie threads, explaining what's happening, and how to do so, if you're interested?

Anyway, there's my $0.02

Well I think Boom would have allowed discussion of lap times if that was the case.
Also, tips on tuning and techniques should and are already shared, if that's a backchannel thing then the character of backchannelers who withhold info from the general wrs population needs to be checked- not the wrs.

Finally, if we put a link to backchannel discussions in the faq wouldn't it just be blatantly ignoring and endorsing the rules about no final time discussion.

Oh and I still want to stress that backchanneling is something we all find on our own.
I don't think backchanneling makes us faster- it is our will to become faster that drives us to backchannels. It is our will to become faster that drives us to buy maxdrives. It is our will to become faster that makes us faster- not the backchannel discussion of final lap times.

Heck, most people serious enough about gt can already guess the approximate final times of fast racers.

Simply put- I don't see how adding final lap times to the discussion creates an advantage that is not present when T time discussion is already there.

Also, I don't see how any advantages of final time discussion outweigh the negative sides of this related to cheating, the atmosphere of the wrs, or the spirit of racing with some mystery behind rival matches or possible underdog fast laps.

Oh!
Last thing, really.

Flat-out is dead on.
This discussion of final times will certainly move us closer to required replays for everyone (and the dissolution of the honor system). (and not just one step, or maybe one step but a huge one at that)
Part of me is cool with that and part of me is not.

Oh well, like I said before... I'm cool with whatever but I certainly do support the idea of NOT changing the rules.
(might as well have the "division discussion" while we are at it)

 

[Luxy]

might as well have the "division discussion" while we are at it)

We are kind of overdue, aren't we?

I have, do, and will always share tuning/track tips/splits (and so do most other people), so no need to worry there. I like racing with people (as friends), rather than against people (as rivals), so I see no reason not to share all of my information. It's just good karma

For me personally, I don't see cheating as a big problem. I like winning as much as the next guy, but if I've put in the best performance I can, then I'm happy, regardless. If I were to win, knowing there were mistakes in my lap, then I'd be disappointed.

You're right about the most determined racers being the ones to find a backchannel, and that they're probably fast before they find it. But I don't see why it needs to be only for them. If the same discussion was in the thread, those determined racers would still get the same benefit, and everyone else would benefit too.

I know I won't change your mind Kent, just playing a little devil's advocate here

 

[Small_Fryz]

I dont want to sound like an arrogant person, but nobody who beats me cheats because they all need maxdrives to prove it, so cheating for me isnt a big issue. As the maxdrive list grows and grows and WRS ages, only dedicated people are left, most with maxdrives. Cheating now is less of a concern than it was back in GT3. Even if we post final times, that still wont change the fact that nearly everyone in D2 - D1 has a maxdrive. Why would a cheater want to cheat in D3? isnt the whole purpose of cheating to win?

Even D3 guys have maxdrives now. What is the % of active racers with a maxdrive now a days, compared to GT3?

 

[T13R]

I have no idea what I would prefer. For me on one hand, all the fun of the WRS was not knowing what everyone else had, so as to create that element of surprise at the end of the week. But at the same time there have been occasions where I thought I had a good last sector, just to find out that people with slower t-times beat me to the line. That part is really frustrating I am goal driven, and knowing a final lap time would push me more than simply what I believe could be fast.

If it were to go ahead, I wouldn't want replays to be shared during the week, but I guess final times could be ok. Maybe if the final time is given as say 1'34.5xx, we would still know approximately the final time, but there is still that one tenth of uncertainty. Of course it will still remain impossible to make sure no one discusses full lap times and exchange replays elsewhere. I even admit I did it once when I had no clue what I was doing wrong.

 

[Z]

I think one thing to remember is how many people here have the option of backchannel chats, the way in which we become involved in those back channel chats, and just what they can do for us.

All of us who have a friend in the WRS can back channel.
I was doing it "Miata13b" before I had a replay transfer device or any sort of title at the gtp.

That said, some of us who are willing to 'back-channel' with others who know nothing about it make new friends and the rivalries that go hand-in-hand. I didn't originally intend on finding the back channel -- I got MSN for BC5 and then it became back channel discussion (not so much the sharing of replays, but actual time swapping) after the fact.

Without a maxdrive, most people wouldn't even be able to take advantage of back channel discussion.
Oddly though, most people who buy maxdrives for this are already backchanneling.

It's not always about replays. Some interesting discussion can be had with others through this arena -- discussion that typically isn't brought up in the weekly threads. Anything from final times to how one mentally prepares for their session or even how far away they sit from the TV to get their reaction times down. Seems silly, but there are many elements to being fast.

 

[Sphinx]

Obviously the rule is getting broken and it cant be stoped, so change it to make it fair for everybody, because frankly if you dont change it, then fine, people out of the loop will be disadvantaged and people in the loop will carry on just like before. I've never turned down a msn request or PM asking for help/replays.

I believe it's time for some honest comments because I think some here are attempting to paint this issue in certain ways to achieve their voting preferences.

But first let's list the major things that Dion put so well in the above comment:

1. the rule is getting broken

2. make it fair for everybody

3. people out of the loop will be disadvantaged

4. people in the loop will carry on

I believe this list is all anyone needs to take onboard when deciding what to vote for.

Don't be fooled when some here attampt to paint a picture that suggests backchanneling isn't that advantagous, believe me it is, because If it wasn't, it wouldn't be going on in the first place.

It's the difference between getting a possible podium or diddley squat, and for many of those who use the backchannel to its maximum, this is exactly what it's all about, a podium.

It's not just here in the WRS, You really should see the backchannel churning away during a BC, all those contacts that you haven't seen or talked to in ages suddenly appear out of the woodwork for any snippet of information they can get their hands on, and for what exactly? Competitive advantage.

The idea of making drivers aware of the backchannel if they want use it is a solution, but it's not a cure. To take advantage you need to have a whole network of contacts to get the info you require because not everybody will add you to their contacts list. You therefore need to go for the next best thing, someone who you know is in contact with other drivers you can't get access to. All this takes time and effort and isn't the sort of thing any new driver can pick up straight away.

I've been accused of not being very constructive in my posts recently, so here's my contribution to anyone who wants to get a good start in the backchannel: Contact Dion 👍

Edit: typo

 

[Tedehur]

anyone who wants to get a good start in the backchannel: Contact Dion 👍

I think you've just perfectly summarized the 47 previous posts

 

[Jake]

I don't use a back channel. I just want to race and do my best. NO need to share replays... I do agree that posting lap times is fine though. Especially since people use the back channel regardless...

 

[Kent]

Dang Sphinx, why don't you just say my name.

Seems to me like there are a few things being done here and it goes in circles until people like myself (the no voters) give up.

I'd preffer it if people here generally acknowledged that in every single post except my initial, I have supported the will of the WRS and GTP over my own prefference (that is totally ignored and I'm being painted as a bad person with only my own goals in mind).

Also, I don't like how easily "tradition" is wiped away.
I guess unique characteristics for gt racing isn't that important to anyone here but to me, the original wrs time discussion theme was and is brilliant for all racers.

Finally, I just want to re-iterate here...

I will roll with anything decided.
I support keeping the original theme of the wrs's time discusion intact.

And again as usual, I point to my previous posts for the sake of re-stating my more detailed views.

That said, good day all.

(Although damn Sphinx, that hurt!
You still mad about the job I did with the WRS?)

Sorry if I came across as the "hold a brother down" type.

Btw, the more I listen to the voices of those who are now the most active here in the WRS, the more I say forget it and I capitulate.

I guess it's time the WRS moves on to giving up final times during the week.

I suggest we also swap replays as well, if you don't post them on the board then you will only be supporting...

Well, think about it... It's bad to backchannel final times and not give them on the board.
Just the same, if you don't post the replays that are swapped from time to time then it would be bad not to post them on the board as well.

Also, I think it should be mandatory for all top 5 spots in each division to provide replays and any other times not in last place should be subject to mandatory replay submission by request. 👍

If we're gonna bring everything to the table and into the open, let's do it right. 👍

 

[Small_Fryz]

Kent i dont see how anything Sphinx said points personally to you. And please point out which bit said you did a bad job as WRS admin?

That aside
Sphinx 👍 great post!

 

[Kent]

I didn't say "bad" I said "the" job I did with the wrs.
Also, I didn't see sphinx use my name but I haven't exactly seen many other people actively argue for the "no" vote.

Assumption is the mother of all _____.
Or is it Assumption makes an ____ out of you and me.

It seems I've assumed too much...

I felt (wrongly obviously) that these comments were meant as an address to me...

I think some here are attempting to paint this issue in certain ways to achieve their voting preferences.
Don't be fooled when some here attampt to paint a picture that suggests backchanneling isn't that advantagous

Sorry, I was wrong to assume that had anything to do with.

In any case, I can also see now that going along with the oppossing view (and respecting it) will win me no respect here.

Stepping on toes is what I'm good at here in the WRS I suppose... Looks like I need to hit the track instead of the dancefloor.

 

[SimRaceDriver]

I know I've not participated in any WRS since I think week 36 or something, due to personal issues, but regarding this issue, I voted 'yes', as I'm all for having final times & ghosts posted during the week!

As a D3 driver myself, I could care less if those in D1 or D2 are comparing notes on MSN or any other IM! Bottom line...I'm not as fast as they are (now) so let the big dogs have their fun, as no one is getting hurt in the process..at least I DON'T FEEL I'M BEING CHEATED!

To those who stated REPLAYS should not be allowed, I disagree!
Had I had access to another drivers replay during previous WRS races I participated in, I could have driven a particular course faster, or at least found how other drivers were taking a particular section, which then ultimately helps me run faster times, thus improving my standings in my own division and ultimately getting me to where I wanted to be...
(Constantly being in the top 3 in D3 or mid-pack D2).

Not sure if this makes sense, seeing as I'm on some really good Doctor prescribed meds!

 

[Small_Fryz]

Kent, Your expressing your opinion and Jerry is his. That still has nothing to do with how you did your job as WRS admin. You did a great job, but now over 1 year on things are a little different. WRS was perfect back then and you did a wonderful job.

Jerry's post probably also points to all the No Voters (17 of them) so your not the only one Kent, and i seriously doubt anything personal is involved, its just some simple debating going on.

I agree with you about replay verifications, i was also behind the push to make all Div1 mandatory to have replay verification, and i think it should be that way. Its hard to police D2 and D3, Maybe everyone who is known to have a maxdrive should be requested everyweek and any top 5 times who dont have a maxdrive are suggested they buy one. Its not a lot of money for a hobby that you are keen on. Its not even a tank of gas these days, its not like a maxdrive couple hundred bucks.

 

[MisterWeary]

Dang Sphinx, why don't you just say my name.

I think he's actually refering to me For the record though all your recent posts have been gold Jerry 👍

I thought Luxy's post here summed up my thoughts pretty well but one thing I'm still concerned with is the newer folk feeling cheated. I for one would encourage the "if you can't beat em join em" method (hope those quotes are okay Dan ). It's a friendship thing more than a cheating thing, I've got no shame in the battle Casio and I have had going on over the past few weeks, it has made me faster and improved my skills (and consequently results) for certain but that's why I race??? I haven't chatted to anyone about this week's race behind closed doors and I seem to be on pace pretty well but I tell you what if Casio comes online claiming a time that beats me, the beef is on!!!

I just wonder why people race? If you want us all to work as autonomous units free from external influence then the community atmosphere is likely to fade away, something I don't like the sound of. I really would like to hear more from D3, D2 guys and the newbies, cos they are the ones I'd suggest are most shocked/affected by this info.

 

[Kent]

Well I do recall sphinx and I seeing things differently almost everytime something odd happend (sphinx/ you have been very good about respectfully disagreeing).

None the less, I did feel like I was the target (still though I have admitted that I was wrong about that "obviously").

Also, I never really made it about my job as the wrs steward... I said he might be mad, let's not get stuck on that (and let's not bother with getting into how well or poorly I did my job back then).
I was simply bringing up my feelings about how I thought J might not like me very much for a multitude of reasons (as I know many others in the wrs also feel).

Sorry to have gotten involved in this you guys.
I just can't get it right.
I'll be leaving now.


Later.
(and sphinx, please don't get all upset and mad... I did use a "lol" and "ouch" instead of "odd" and "irked"). No harm meant and I mean that.

On the positive side:
Atleast the new system will make it un-necessary to post a results thread, a leaderboard, and PMs to flat-out. 👍
Now we can just post times in the thread and flat-out can post them in the first post as they come (then edit them as he has the time with a final edit the day after the deadline is up). 👍

Streamlines the process quite a bit. 👍

 

[Tyre King]

Well guys, I think that the discussion here is getting a little clouded by ego's and super-ego's.
This is about whether or not we should allow final lap times and replays to be posted during the racing week, not who is right, wrong, did a good job, or anything else to do with liking/disliking how anyone ran things in the past.

Just, whether or not final lap-times and replays should be allowed!

On that subject....................

I know that I voted 'NO' to the change, with the qualification that I was saying NO to replay posting not lap time posting.

Maybe I should have voted 'YES' with the qualification of NO replays.

If that makes any sense?

I also stated that mandatory replay posting in the results thread, for all capable, would sift the 'wheat from the chaff' as far as 'cheaters' was concerned. And allay anyone's fears on that point.

I think that is as concise an opinion as I can provide, on subject!

Neil

 

[Super T]

I just wonder why people race? If you want us all to work as autonomous units free from external influence then the community atmosphere is likely to fade away, something I don't like the sound of. I really would like to hear more from D3, D2 guys and the newbies, cos they are the ones I'd suggest are most shocked/affected by this info.

I'm a newbie, I've been paying very close attention to this thread, I've been trying to weigh up the argument by reading everybody's opinions and making silly little pro's and con's list's in my head. As I've said before I do feel a little cheated finding out that this goes on, it just doesn't sit well with me that people are effectively breaking the rules and discussing lap times or even exchanging replays.

So in that respect my vote would be a yes change the rules and allow discussion of times etc.

But if we do change the rules how many of you guys who do participate in back-channel activities would be willing to share your info in the forums knowing it would probably help us slower guys catch up, maybe one day even beating you (unlikely as it seems)? I know many of the top guys already willingly share set-ups and the like, even us slower guys do it (for what it's worth).

I'm not naming names, I don't know who does and who doesn't do it but would the guy two places in front of me post a replay knowing I'm only three tenths behind him on a thursday?

I suppose part of the tradition of the WRS has been discovering that surprise final sector time of the guy who's been slightly behind you all week has pipped you to the post.

I'm still not sure which way to vote, I don't want to step on anyones toes or force what seem to be the majority of racers back channelling further underground.

For the record, I race to see how I stack up against other GT players, (as it turns out, some of the best in the world!) Many of my friends either don't play consoles games that much and many of those who do just aren't into GT in the same way as I am.

Just a few observations from a NOOB? 👍

 

[Sphinx]

I’ve managed to read most of the replies since my last post, but I’m a tad busy right now to reply in detail, but to put Kent out of his misery, yes my post was mainly directed at his opinion regarding this issue. It was nothing personal and I respect you the same as I’ve always had. Just because I don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean I don’t like them. 👍

 

[Jake]

You race, you post your time. Someone IM'ed me when I started racing here and said that they stopped doing this due to the current ways guys race. It seems like there are "teams" out there that take advantage of the back channel.