Rule change suggestion

[Kent]

I’ve managed to read most of the replies since my last post, but I’m a tad busy right now to reply in detail, but to put Kent out of his misery, yes my post was mainly directed at his opinion regarding this issue. It was nothing personal and I respect you the same as I’ve always had. Just because I don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean I don’t like them. 👍

I knew it!
So eat that fryz.

All's good Sphinx.
I'm glad that I'm not thought of as poorly as I originally thought.

I'm also honored to have you step up and take credit in the way you did. 👍

In any case, like I've said before on several of my posts...

I'm down with whatever changes you all want to make (even if I'm not exactly jumping at the offer).

 

[inferno]

i voted a while back. just now posting my reply. About replays being posted during the week. i am opposed to that and here is why. first off, having a fast ghost to chase during the week would improve my times IMENSLY. having a play by play right infront of me. giving me something to chase and try to mirror. However, i want to be fast on my own, and chasing someone elses ghost isnt exactly doing it on my own. the reason i approve of final times discussion is because, as several others have stated, it would give me a proper goal to shoot for. during the week when chasing opponents, the final split is all that truely matters. but after that split there is an entire sector for the pace to fall off. simply because you have no idea what to shoot for. you might think you brezed through nice and quick, just to find that someone else brezed through nice and quicker. lol In reality, the times at the finish line, are really all that matters. having something to shoot for makes you push your limits and figure out how to be faster. Having something to chase just teaches you how to be faster. some may be ok with this, but i want to conquer the combos on my own. Now, regarding the suprise factor. I'm sure alot of people will probably chose not to share their final submission times. so there, all week you have a decent goal to chace and try to beat. then at the end of the week you still have no clue how you did. perhaps we could even make that the rule. Opinions?

 

[Small_Fryz]

I knew it!
So eat that fryz.

My bad

Sorry Kent

Super T, about top guys not posting replays, i doubt you have much to fear mate, i know a good handful of fast blokes who will post replays at request no matter how far/close you are behind. Maybe not everyone will, but enough will be posted 👍. Dan/Curtis/Me i know for 100% will. Im sure Z./Minorshunt/Casio/MisterWeary will probably also! And a few others that have slipped my mind atm.

Inferno.
Is it possible to chase ghost replays and not actuallly learn the technique you saw? Everytime i watch/chase Dan's replays i learn something that i can apply to every race i do after that, especially in terms of "lines" for a given track. After a few weeks of chasing replays, you will have learnt a whole load of stuff and will no longer need to chase them as you have "learnt" pretty much all you can, all thats left is fine tunning what you have learnt, which a replay cant help IMHO.

 

[MisterWeary]

...but would the guy two places in front of me post a replay knowing I'm only three tenths behind him on a thursday?

Well I would, the end result is we all get faster. It's not a divisional thing either, the other week Balls and I were neck and neck, he is then my nemesis for the week, looking at the leaderboard right now it would suggest that Kyle needs to be my nemesis this week. As it stands the secrecy about the end sector only forces us to be quieter if we're close, that sucks in my opinion. But if it's public everyone can benefit from our "fight". Francisco could decide he wants a piece of it and the end result is we all get faster races. That's my goal. I would love to see you rise through the ranks SuperT and for us to be fighting for hundredths, that's what the comp is about for me 👍

You race, you post your time. Someone IM'ed me when I started racing here and said that they stopped doing this due to the current ways guys race. It seems like there are "teams" out there that take advantage of the back channel.

If you simply want to race and post your times then that is perfectly acceptable but I'd prefer we were one massive collegial community looking to help each other get faster. During the Citta di Aria week (52) you were flying, I would have loved more details on how you did it and sparking some rivalry between you and I may have pushed us both half a second faster and everybody else as well...that's WRS to me 👍 If I find something out, you can all have that info but the mini-rivalries are what have made me faster. There is no such thing as "teams" though I might add, Casio and I might be fighting hard for hundredths but our goal has never been to beat player X...I'm sorry if that's the impression you got though.

first off, having a fast ghost to chase during the week would improve my times IMENSLY. having a play by play right infront of me. giving me something to chase and try to mirror. However, i want to be fast on my own, and chasing someone elses ghost isnt exactly doing it on my own.

Well it may start as copying someone's race but you will DEFINITELY learn something in the process and be better off for it in future races. This is not a common use for the backchannel I might add, most of this backchanneling is final sector and lap time discussion but a replay occasionally to chase is a cool thing. It was helpful for the BC quals and I thought that was a heap of fun, I really felt like I hit my limit (despite the fact I was beaten by 11 super-fast aliens )

I can understand hesitation in regard to replay posting and that's where Neil's suggestion would work fine, but in my opinion anything that benefits everyone can't be a bad thing 👍

 

[Dr_Watson]

I think one thing to remember is how many people here have[...]

omg kent... I think thats the only time i've ever seen you make a post that didn't have a smilie! i'm shocked.

 

[Casio]

Shockingly to some. I voted no.

This is hypocritical, but I like waking up in the morning, logging in to WRS, and finding out how well I did. If final times are posted in the actual thread, for everyone to see, what's to stop people thinking "Well...I'm the lowest in (D1,D2,D3) this week, I won't bother submitting".

However, I do need a goal to go up against, this weekend for example, I didn't have access to the internet. Doing this weeks race, I've been doing laps and thinking 'Is this a good lap?' and 'I wish I knew where my peers where'.

The system in use now is archaic. Posting T-Times only to stop cheating is nonsencical, as 90% of racers now have replay devices. However, I think doing a complete rule change and discussing all times will cause a decline in submissions because of the example I stated vide supra.

Like people have said, the 'backchannel' is not some super secret cult out to pray on the weak. The 'backchannelers' will not withhold information from people who wish to seek it. If you want our times, we'll provide it; If you want a replay, will provide it; If you don't want anything but hints and tips, then we'll oblige with that too.

Maybe another option is allowing posting of final times until the last 24/48 hours, to bring some surprise to the results.

 

[Super T]

but in my opinion anything that benefits everyone can't be a bad thing 👍

Sums up my argument right there Colby.

Maybe it would'nt benefit everyone, my replay device was ordered as soon as I could find one. Not because I've been setting fast times and need to proove them, (I've been last twice and a 6th last week). Not because I want to get involved with cheating, (I'm sorry but the rules state no time discussion, breaking the rules IS cheating)! Not an opinion that's gonna make me popular.

The only reason I've rushed out and ordered my max drive is to make sure my replays can be verified. I'm not saying I wouldn't use the back channells were they available to me (my bad ), sureley the outcome of this is that it should be made available to all since there's no way to police this blatant disregard for one of the rules that has been there since the start of the WRS?

 

[Casio]

The only reason I've rushed out and ordered my max drive is to make sure my replays can be verified. I'm not saying I wouldn't use the back channells were they available to me (my bad ), sureley the outcome of this is that it should be made available to all since there's no way to police this blatant disregard for one of the rules that has been there since the start of the WRS?

Technically, discussing final times is only a violation of the thread rules.

Thread rules :
You can discuss anything (T times, sector times, speeds, settings, etc) except :

• lap time ;
• any information which can be used to infer lap time.

So I wouldn't call it a 'blatant' disregard of the rules. These rules are bent all the time anyway. Especially the 'any information which can be used to infer lap time' one. By the strictest intepretation they've been broken this week.

I guess 52.6 or 7 can be had through T3 . . . just enough to get under a certain second barrier.

 

[Laurence5905]

30 votes so far, and a perfect balance : 15 'Yes' and 15 'No'.
After having read every post, my plan so far is to leave it the way it is : no discussion allowed in the thread.
In this way, people who don't want to know what everybody else's laptimes are are not forced to see them in the posts.
Yet, now that everybody is aware that there is some backchannel going on where they can find any information that can't be posted in the thread, it's very easy for them to join the backchannel since they just need to find a post by someone who uses it already and click on his MSN logo to add him to their contacts.

But NOT everyone is aware of the backchannel -- only folks who've heard about it through threads like this one.

So I say, fine, make your decision to keep the laptimes and replay discussion off of the GTP forums, but also make the backchannel discussions a PUBLIC thing -- in other words, post at the top of the new race each week, exactly HOW you join the MSN chat. (Or just a simple link that displays a page with full instructions.)

Then everyone gets what they want -- those who don't want to know can continue not knowing, and those who do want to know will have the option of joining in on the MSN chat. Problem solved, IMHO.

 

[Dr_Watson]

the only thing i find shocking about the backchannel stuff, is that you all use msn's IM for it.
In my day you all would have been idleing in an IRC channel.

 

[Super T]

Sorry Casio, just my 2 pennies worth.

I'm not attacking anyone, I just don't feel it's fair if it's not available to ALL who participate in the WRS.

I didn't know it went on until this week and yes I do (and I'm sure I'm not alone) feel cheated?

Edit: No offence taken Casio. 👍

 

[Casio]

Sorry Casio, just my 2 pennies worth.

I'm not attacking anyone, I just don't feel it's fair if it's not available to ALL who participate in the WRS.

I didn't know it went on until this week and yes I do (and I'm sure I'm not alone) feel cheated?

I didn't mean to be offending. If I came off that way I'm sorry.

But it is available to all who participate in the WRS. Like I said before it's not like the 'Backchannelers' pick and choose who to give out information to, it's open to anyone who wants it.

I understand how you could feel 'cheated' by not knowing it was going on. But everyone was like that when they first came. I only started MSNing people in the late 30s of the WRS. I started in week 8 or 9, so I went a long time without knowing this information was available too.

 

[MisterWeary]

Sums up my argument right there Colby.

Maybe it would'nt benefit everyone, my replay device was ordered as soon as I could find one. Not because I've been setting fast times and need to proove them, (I've been last twice and a 6th last week). Not because I want to get involved with cheating, (I'm sorry but the rules state no time discussion, breaking the rules IS cheating)! Not an opinion that's gonna make me popular.

The only reason I've rushed out and ordered my max drive is to make sure my replays can be verified. I'm not saying I wouldn't use the back channells were they available to me (my bad ), sureley the outcome of this is that it should be made available to all since there's no way to police this blatant disregard for one of the rules that has been there since the start of the WRS?

A few final thoughts:

1. Your opinion doesn't make you unpopular and certainly no offense can be taken at you providing your honest thoughts, if anything I applaud it 👍

2. Casio makes a good point, it's the thread that is meant to be free from final sector and lap time discussion, that doesn't make it any less of a shock to find out what's been happening WAAAAY longer than I was ever a GT racer.

3. I reckon most everything has at least been brought out into the open now and deciding what action to take from here is up to Cyril, at least this "backchannel" is no longer a secret.

 

[Der Alta]

I honestly would like everyone to reach their limit every week. I have no desire to help only myself and a "select" few, I'm interested in helping everyone reach their limit. It disappoints me to see people sign up, race once and then disappear. That's why I think open discussion and replay posting in the race thread would be a good thing

Oh and I still want to stress that backchanneling is something we all find on our own.
I don't think backchanneling makes us faster- it is our will to become faster that drives us to backchannels. It is our will to become faster that drives us to buy maxdrives. It is our will to become faster that makes us faster- not the backchannel discussion of final lap times.

Not having participated in the WRS for some time, My opinion won't hold much weight. Add in that I was always a low tier lap time, it holds less weight.

I can offer some advice from way back when the WRS came into being. One thing that we had hoped would happen, is that people would improve their lap times. They'd learn to become faster racers. As many of us know, we thougth we were fast until we met the fast guys. Then BTTW's 'tar was an applicable analogy.

When I was racing, I always wondered how I stood. If I had know of the back channel, I would have certainly taken too it. If I had a Mr. P. replay, or a Kent replay to chase, my learning curve would have taken a new direction.

To boil this down further than Sphinx did, you can ask the question, What is the intent of the WRS? The ensuing discussion on that should help us all sort out Flat-Out's poll.

 

[Mr P]

'Backchannel' isn't some underground syndicate where lots of members all meet up and plan how to rule the WRS

It simply a name that has grown over the years for chatting to someone 'one on one' or maybe a 3 way convo regarding a specific OLR event away from the actual event itself!

It's not as bad as some are making out Replays can be exchanged so what? thats the benefit of having a replay device 💡

To call the people who have done this 'cheaters' is just ignorant and childish, some people are willing to push a private battle in the background farther by exchanging replays! .. and its pretty similar to how things are done when racing in a BC trading replays and final times to push team-mates or just people you know around the track faster to get a better finish.

Get a grip guys because there's nothing can be done to stop it (or maybe ban all the backchannel cheaters from the WRS is an option )

I have in the past given out replays and if someone requested a replay off me again? If I knew the person and wanted to help then I would pass it on with no thoughts or problem at all 👍 unless it was some idiot that got up my nose I would tell them to pi$$ off

You want to be faster and push for your limits? ... then get a replay device and either DL replays from the database or the results thread or via a messenger program and compare with others simple as that!

I dont race WRS that often as I'm usually busy elsewhere racing with people who have a more mature approach to racing and wont spit the dummy out when someone trades a replay ... I dont really care if my post bruises some ego's either! ... but I wont sit back and watch noobs to OLR call people who have been doing this for nearly 5 years 'cheaters' because they took the time to spend money on replay devices and communicate with each other outside of the confines of this forum and trade info to help progression

Wake up and smell the coffee guys! .... This can not be policed by anyone so either live with it or create a programme to monitor all internet activity

Bring forth the Lynch mob if you take offence! ... or accept my post as it is meant simple facts .... blunt! ... but simple

Ron.

 

[Tyre King]

No lynch mob dispatched by me Ron!

I agree with all you have said, and Der Alta's comments too. 👍

Although I never thought my 'tar would be used as a method of making a point!

The only way we are going to maintain the integrity of the WRS now is to allow the posting of both full lap-times AND replays.
There is too much distrust floating around to do anything else, IMO.

Some are getting p;ssed off by being called a cheat for using the so-called 'backchannels', others are feeling that they have been cheated by not being included.
Now, the only way round this problem, and to bring back the seemingly fragile harmony of the WRS, is to promote 'full-disclosure' and therefore negate the effects that 'backchannels' have in this community.

After all is said and done, this is a friendly board and should always be so. And if this 'mini-crisis' is going to be smoothed out, then something has to be done.

As a mainly male oriented 'sport' there is always going to be competition, we all (if we are totally honest, with each other and ourselves) want to beat the next guy, get a win or podium, and ANYONE who says different is deluding themselves.

If we didn't want to win, we wouldn't compete!
We wouldn't push for that second-barrier, we wouldn't monitor the split-leaderboard 5-10 times a day to see where we stand, the 'backchannel scene wouldn't exist,and most of us wouldn't put in the time that we do, if there wasn't some kind of reward at the end.

And that reward is beating our fellow competators! FULL STOP!

Time to grow up, time to admit that we are ALL competative, and time to admit that the WRS is changing!

For better or for worse the WRS is now a different beast to what it started out as. Things like this, where many, many people are involved need to change, evolve, or they die!

I for one want it to continue to be a place where I can have a laugh, take the p;ss, talk with friends, and be what I am!
A male, testosterone fueled, highly competative being that needs an outlet for the frustration of not being fortunate enough to have either the money or R/L skill to drive like this, and be good.

I AM OFFICIALLY CHANGING MY VOTE TO 'YES'

It's the only way!

Neil

 

[Super T]

I'll make a note not to request any of your replays then Mr P?

Maybe they are ignorant and childish, but they are my opinions?

 

[Tedehur]

I'll make a note not to request any of your replays then Mr P?
Maybe they are ignorant and childish, but they are my opinions?

I would have said 'naive' rather than 'ignorant' or 'childish', but I agree with what Ron (Mr P) wrote.
IMO, the rules forbid laptime discussion mainly to prevent careless people to post or submit laptimes made up out of thin air. (Look at week 30 results to see what I mean). But discussing these times by some other means is not against the rules : it totally matches the spirit of the WRS :

1. providing a challenging entertainment (or is it an entertaining challenge ?) to GT3/4 players ;
2. having a community of racers ready to help each other so as to improve their driving skills

Remember there is nothing to win (or lose) except friends, respect and a bunch of rep points.

...and of course all constructive opinions are respectable and worth being posted.

 

[Sphinx]

But discussing these times by some other means is not against the rules

Is this something you've just decided upon, or is there a link you can provide in order to back that statement up?

The "Thread rules" statement has only been there since GT4 wk30

keep painting that picture guys 👍

 

[Kent]

Actually sphinx, I don't think time discussion has been off limits on all levels (not even from the first day).

I think the rule has implied that we were not to post times on the board or in the thread.

Chatting with a friend about final times has gone down since the first day (between those who trusted each other enough to share).

I don't think the "Integrity" of the wrs is fairly being brought into question.

We all do indeed race to become faster but why do we strive to become faster? To win, that's why.

With that said, posting replays and discussing final lap times has always been a backchannel subject for the sake of privacy (even before the wrs).

Only with open public long term continuous leaderboards do you find the sort of time discussion we are considering. With competitions that are limited in duration we generally keep to ourselves about final times until the due date of the race (I imagine bc will be that way this year as well).
That's just one more thing to consider here.

whatever decision is made, I am ready to roll along with it as all of us will be.

 

[Tedehur]

The "Thread rules" statement has only been there since GT4 wk30

Right, I hadn't noticed it wasn't named 'thread rules' until I started to post the threads myself (week 30).
But I'm curious to know how one could expect to enforce a rule that says you mustn't discuss lap times ?
Let's assume that you race a certain WRS week, and meet Amir on the friday evening, and he's racing that race too : would the two of you make sure not to mention any laptime ?

I've never considered that backchannelling was breaking the rules.
So no, I haven't decided that just now. And no, I have no link to provide : if I knew about a post somewhere saying 'backchannelling is not breaking the rules' or on the opposite, 'backchannelling is breaking the rules' I wouldn't have posted this poll.

 

[Super T]

I've ruffled more than enough feathers already so before you skip past this post I want to apologize for upsetting anyone.

I respect each and every racer here, many of you are so much faster then I though possible, most have you have been OLR for longer than I've been using the internet. I stuck with GTPlanet as I found everyone friendly and helpful. Didn't take me long to change that. It was a harsh to use the "cheating" word and many of you took it the wrong way, all I meant was I felt cheated, as I'm sure many other NOOBS did when they found out about back channel discussions.

IMVHO, If the purpose of back channel discussions is to improve racing then it should be made available to all??

 

[Sphinx]

Actually sphinx, I don't think time discussion has been off limits on all levels (not even from the first day).

I think the rule has implied that we were not to post times on the board or in the thread.

Right, I hadn't noticed it wasn't named 'thread rules' until I started to post the threads myself (week 30).
But I'm curious to know how one could expect to enforce a rule that says you mustn't discuss lap times ?
Let's assume that you race a certain WRS week, and meet Amir on the friday evening, and he's racing that race too : would the two of you make sure not to mention any laptime ?

I've never considered that backchannelling was breaking the rules.
So no, I haven't decided that just now. And no, I have no link to provide : if I knew about a post somewhere saying 'backchannelling is not breaking the rules' or on the opposite, 'backchannelling is breaking the rules' I wouldn't have posted this poll.

Interesting,
So tell me, then why has the backchannel always been the subject that dare not speak its name, that is until now?

Why is it that there are no posts throuhout the WRS archive that highlights anyone thanking or whatever another driver for sharing their replay for the purpose of ghosting, that is until very recently? (Casio)

Why is it there are no posts throughout the WRS archive that highlights anyone thanking or whatever another driver for supplying him with a full lap time to chase?

Cmon guys, I know I'm no Angel when it comes to the backchannel, but let's not try and kid ourselves here.

BTW Cyril, Nice one about Amir We closed our eyes. .

Remember, I'm a planter of seeds, I wait for those seeds to grow into discussions. Sadly sometimes many seeds go un-noticed and die. Perhaps that was one of them

 

[sausages]

After reading all the comments here and having a think about it I'd just like to say that, first of all, I don't think there's anyone question of dishonesty or cheating here. I certainly don't see it as some shadowy conspiracy to gain an unfair advantage, just a sharing of information which might result in an added impetus to try that much harder and get a faster time - those people still had to actually put in those laps, they are that fast. So that's that in my opinion - it doesn't in any way discredit them or devalue their times. After all, as someone else said, we're all here to learn and to get faster. 👍

Probably the reason a few people are upset about it is that it's like hanging around with a bunch of friends for a good few weeks/months and then finding out they've all been to a party you weren't invited to.

Anyway, I say yes, allow the discussion of lap times during the week - I can't personally see any reason not too and I'm not that convinced by any of the contra arguments. Competition will still be just as fierce, maybe more so; there will still always be the chance of a surprise result (and if there was, it would be even more of a surprise, if you think about it); I don't see at all that it would result in a massive escalation of cheating or a swarm of fictional laptimes being posted; and finally, I've never been one to stick with tradition for the sake of it.

That said, like Kent, I'm happy to go with whatever the decision is - I like it now as it is, and I will still participate whenever I can if the rule stays or if it goes - let's not get this out of proportion...

PS. if the rule is kept, a short paragraph should just be added to the FAQ or somewhere explaining the situation.

 

[Thotozam AZ-1]

Personally, I say no....
People have no reason to do their absolute best....they will just beat the time they see and submit

CG

 

[Tedehur]

Why is it that there are no posts throuhout the WRS archive that highlights anyone thanking or whatever another driver for sharing their replay for the purpose of ghosting, that is until very recently? (Casio)

Why is it there are no posts throughout the WRS archive that highlights anyone thanking or whatever another driver for supplying him with a full lap time to chase?

I started to browse through the archive, looking for the posts I could remember :

• when Casio mentions his discussion with Dan in week 48 (not sure if it's the one you mention).
• when I suggested to Jake that he sends a replay during the week to a trusted driver so that it could be checked.
• last year when NielsG clearly said that he's discussing times back channel (final paragraph of his long post)

And then I found :

• This post, back in week 1 of the GT3 WRS, where Ron admits that he discusses laptimes with Max over MSN

So there is evidence that it has been going on since the very beginning of the WRS, and even before that.

As many stated, this is no conspiracy. It only starts with friends who share more than the WRS, get in touch with each other in RL, or via MSN, or email or whatever, and they just happen to speak about laptimes.
There's no bad intention IMO, and there's no way to prevent it.

Yet, since it has come to such an extent that most of div1 discuss their times back channel, I think it's a good thing that it has been brought into the spotlight and every racer knows about it.

 

[Dave_George]

Probably the reason a few people are upset about it is that it's like hanging around with a bunch of friends for a good few weeks/months and then finding out they've all been to a party you weren't invited to.

Thats not the case for me really..

Its more that I took the wrs rules in each weeks thread quite seriously, maybe too seriously?

It didnt occur to me to ask quicker guys for help, and if it had occured to me to ask a quicker guy for his current replay file I would have expected to have got told to go back and read the race rules again! I would never have expected to have been given a full replay file outside of the thread.

I too am obviously "naive" about the whole subject.

To get an unbiased view of this I today gave my fiancee a quick lesson in gtp wrs "etiquette" and informed her of how the rules usually went each week (and with her having no former knowledge of this thread and current situation) I then told her that I could IM somebody and get a full replay that had the potential to help me go quicker and that this is ok cause its considered normal...

She said it sounded unfair because not everyone might know how to do that, that is was wrong as it contradicted in some ways what was written in the official weekly race thread, and finally she said that if it was known to be going on for so long then why did the wrs week after week race with "No discussion of final lap times"? - in other words it seemed pointless for the WRS to race like this when it was known that a large percentage of its racers didnt do that anyway!!

Of course its just her opinion, but it gave me an unbiased view on things which was:tup:

Of course every argument has its two sides, I really hope that whatever the outcome its the best thing for the WRS and everyone who participates, so far only 38 of the 445 registered drivers have shown their opinion and voted, enough to base a decision?

I too will (Obviously) have to roll with whatever happens, I probably dont race enough for it to matter that much anyway, bear in mind though that most other series on gtp follow suit and race with the same "Etiquette" usually meaning lap times are kept quiet to the end of a race. Lets imagine this has an adverse affect on the WRS, could the same happen then to the whole of the gtp OLR community?

What gripes me the most is that this should have been out in the open a long long time ago, its come out now and is dissapointing to those who have raced on their own using just their own ghosts to chase, even some of you guys for the argument must respect that by not mentioning and changing the way things worked sooner that it looks more than a little bit bad now that it has come to light in the way that it has....

I am not trying to label anyone as "Cheaters", but surely the idea of the WRS is that everyone is on a level playing field. That has obviously not been the case, and it is not the fault of the guys who havent been part of the replay/time sharing, just because they didnt think to IM everybody.

regards

David

 

[Mr P]

And then I found :

• This post, back in week 1 of the GT3 WRS, where Ron admits that he discusses laptimes with Max over MSN

So there is evidence that it has been going on since the very beginning of the WRS, and even before that.

Nice find from the archives Cyril 👍 ... It's a prime example that nothing was hidden back then at the birth of the WRS as we were all a pretty close knit community in those days! No one was shocked by my post and no one was deceived in any way! because someone never knew it existed doesn't mean to say it was hidden from them ... they were simply oblivious to it is all.

Max took 1st place and I got 2nd and the backchannel discussions made for a great race ... obviously we couldn't trade replays on that occasion as Max is NTSC and I am PAL! but pushing each other behind the scenes was great and adrenaline pumping knowing the other person had the edge and pushed us to the Max that we could take that combo! every day one of us improved we would tell the other via msn.

I'm not saying the Rules need rewriting totally or even at all! .... but the backchannel chats are just part of the game and need to be recognised as a good part of racing and not just taking an edge over all the other competitors!

In that week 1 of GT3 WRS most of the drivers knew where they stood and help / guidance was given to whoever had problems with certain sections ( lots more discussions backchannel than in the thread )... we practically knew who had won before the results were posted as reading the whole thread will show 👍

Acceptance of a non policable part of racing is highlighted again now! .. as it was back then ... just accept it guys and dont feel cheated, freedom of speech is part of life and freedom to do as you wish in your own time is also part of the package

Also in GT3 days when a combo was posted it was simple to go to gt.de database and look at the records for that particular combo and chase down the 1st place time simply by knowing what was possible!
more than 1 way to skin a cat

nothing wrong with making use of your replay devices, and enjoy pushing your racing mates and yourself to faster times backchannel that will for sure make your results significantly better than they would be just racing your combo in your house and not knowing where to stop, nothing wrong with having a target ... It cant be stopped so as they say if you cant beat em ... Join em 👍

Good luck resolving this one 👍 ... I'll take my leave now

Ron.

 

[Kent]

👍 👍
Awesome post Ron.

I think you've made the perfect points regarding backchannel discussion.
Cheating and Conspiracy are not part of the competition amongst friends found on IM.

Just being enthusiastic enough to be friendly with your competitors is enough to drive backchannel discussion... If you haven't become part of it before now then join in but don't blame backchannelers for not specifically inviting you into the gang.

Accept backchanneling as part of the world wide web, not just gt and not just the wrs.

I don't think the rules need changing.
I could be wrong though.



Edit:
Just thought of how we always considered it polite and proper to submit T times during the week instead of just submitting without letting anyone know you were in the race... (not just silently ghosting all week and suprising everyone at the end of the race week)
Would be interesting to see how that "rule" could lead to an informal rule about submitting final lap times in the same manner.

 

[Casio]

Why is it that there are no posts throuhout the WRS archive that highlights anyone thanking or whatever another driver for sharing their replay for the purpose of ghosting, that is until very recently? (Casio)

Ok, I've been chasing Hol's ghost all morning.

That was on the 27 of January. Nearly 5 months ago, so it's hardly recently.

I've been meaning to ask, why is how the WRS is run so important to you? You've submitted once in the last year.