Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[TenEightyOne]

LONDON (AP) — A British government document caught by a photographer's lens suggests that officials there are against imposing economic sanctions on Russia, a position which could complicate any U.S. effort to isolate Moscow over its military advances on Ukraine.

The document, captured by a photographer outside the British prime minister's Downing Street office as it was carried in by an adviser, says Britain "should not support for now trade sanctions or close London's financial center to Russians," according to the BBC, which first reported the blooper Monday.

It's not clear whether the document presents a settled U.K. position or just the view of one set of officials within government.

That supports what I said; the document was one of, no doubt, several that would have been presented (if presented at all) at the advisory meeting... which was 2 days ago, a very long time in this crisis.

Information going into briefings is not necessarily related to the decisions coming out

 

[Dotini]

That supports what I said; the document was one of, no doubt, several that would have been presented (if presented at all) at the advisory meeting... which was 2 days ago, a very long time in this crisis.

Information going into briefings is not necessarily related to the decisions coming out

Great, but has the UK thrown the Russians out of The City and declared a sanctions regime, or not??
What about the EU? Has it decided on sanctions? I'd like to know.

The thrust of the various articles is that the EU is nervous about sanctioning Russia. If so, that nearly scuppers any idea of a united front of the West vs the East. I suppose I should be saying that Obama should be laying into you harder with his whips and microphones.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Great, but has the UK thrown the Russians out of The City and declared a sanctions regime, or not??
What about the EU? Has it decided on sanctions? I'd like to know.

Not so easy for the EU, and at this time they seem to be awaiting the outcome of negotiations. The European economic balance is a tight one and Russia can strangle them with energy price rises. I think everyone's waiting to see if the diplomatic missions come to anything... perhaps it's even been agreed that the US will step up to speak as a 'more remote' threat, good-cop scary-heavily-armed-Murica-cop?

 

[Dotini]

Here, the major networks, most politicians and academics are urging the strongest possible measures.

Is our President acting weak or is he acting strong? Has he been led down the garden path by his own State Department??

We may have fomented a revolution that gets out of hand. Without unification of allies, nothing can stop it.

 

[SMfan]

Ohhh, nice. Finally an interview of a Russian army dude:



Guess not all of them are all that good at following orders, cause he not only talked to the press but outright said they are Russian forces. I'm actually kinda worried about that dude now.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Russian TV host gives her pro-Ukrainian views, the broadcaster (RT?) say they support her right to give her opinion in full.

They've even offered to fly her to Crimea to investigate her views further, at what they (rather worryingly) call the "epicentre"

Funny how the MSM praise Abby Martin for speaking out against Russia on a Russian network, but ignore or bash her when she speaks about American war crimes and tells the truth about what's going on on her show (breaking the set) .

 

[TenEightyOne]

Funny how the MSM praise Abby Martin for speaking out against Russia on a Russian network, but ignore or bash her when she speaks about American war crimes and tells the truth about what's going on on her show (breaking the set) .

Haha, there's a free-world broadcasting agenda for you

@SMfan , we already know the Russians can put up to 25,000 soldiers there, I think? Is this guy saying he's new-to-the-region or just that he's normally stationed there? What kind of mood is there on Russian TV at the moment? I imagine the gameshows are still running

First British Troops prepared for landfall in Crimea - SPOOF

 

[SMfan]

@SMfan , we already know the Russians can put up to 25,000 soldiers there, I think? Is this guy saying he's new-to-the-region or just that he's normally stationed there?

That's the thing, he doesn't say why they are there or who gives 'em commands. For the most part he just goes "Oh c'mon, you know". Also, he's got no symbols of the official Russian forces, which those stitioned in Ukraine do have.

What kind of mood is there on Russian TV at the moment? I imagine the gameshows are still running

I'm exclusively watching tvrain right now - a channell that was banned by the biggest cable and satellite providers, so I'm watching it on the Internet. Because of that ban it may not exist for more than a month from now, which is f:censored:ing sad.

As for the other TV... it's insane. I mean it is literally scary. You know how when people act crazy for too long, they become crazy? Well that is happening here.
Yeah, there's dumb media everywhere and there's lying media and all that, but in Russia we have been witnessing the degradation of media of incredible proportions during the last decade or so. Well, I was too young to actually remember a lot from the times when there wasn't such a monopoly like now, but I watched recordings afterwards, and man (!) do I wish we could have some of those channels and journalists back.

Oh, and about hte gameshows, was that just a general comment or were you referring to anything?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Oh, and about hte gameshows, was that just a general comment or were you referring to anything?

Fascinating point-of-view stuff, thank you!

The gameshows were an aside; I imagine that when the apocalypse comes it'll be accompanied by the plastic chatter of 10,000,000 gameshows all blasting out into empty living rooms

When the gameshows go off, we're in deep trouble.

 

[Liquid]

Here, the major networks, most politicians and academics are urging the strongest possible measures.

Is our President acting weak or is he acting strong? Has he been led down the garden path by his own State Department??

We may have fomented a revolution that gets out of hand. Without unification of allies, nothing can stop it.

Whose business is it anyway? Why does the United States feel the need to get involved, with American and Russian diplomats set for crunch talks in Paris.

Let's not forget that Ukraine is not a member of NATO or the EU. Perhaps it's more of a UN issue.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Whose business is it anyway? Why does the United States feel the need to get involved, with American and Russian diplomats set for crunch talks in Paris.

Let's not forget that Ukraine is not a member of NATO or the EU. Perhaps it's more of a UN issue.

Budapest Memorandum

 

[Liquid]

Thank you very much. I wasn't aware of that.

 

[Dotini]

Budapest Memorandum

Obama has said the Russians are relying on a different set of lawyers.

 

[Dennisch]

I like it how the Russians keep denying that there are Russians (controlled) troops in Ukraine.

And the EU just gave the go ahead for a 11 billion Euro injection.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I like it how the Russians keep denying that there are Russians (controlled) troops in Ukraine.

Have they denied that? I'm sure I watched Putin on the TV last night talking about the role of the Russian troops in Ukraine and the orders they'd received?

 

[Dennisch]

Have they denied that? I'm sure I watched Putin on the TV last night talking about the role of the Russian troops in Ukraine and the orders they'd received?

I just watched a Minister of, I think it was Defense, saying that the troops there do not take orders from the Russian Government. I think they get lost in their own smoke and mirrors. Which aren't even there!

 

[Dotini]

And the EU just gave the go ahead for a 11 billion Euro injection.

The money definitely matters. But there may be anti-corruption reforms in the deal that oligarchs would balk at.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/05/us-eu-ukraine-support-idUSBREA240V020140305
(Reuters) - The European Union is ready to provide 11 billion euros ($15 billion) of financial support to Ukraine over the next couple of years via a series of loans and grants, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said on Wednesday.

The assistance would be delivered in coordination with the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and the European Investment Bank, and is in part contingent on Ukraine signing a deal with the International Monetary Fund.

 

[Dhalism]

I see John Kerry keeps calling on Russia to work with Kiev. I find it strange that he is not calling on Kiev to work with Russia, given that pro-EU supporters overthrew the government because they were unhappy with moves toward Russia.

That is a statement that you are going to need to qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_–_Ukrainian_National_Self_Defence

And in general googling Una Unso brings up interesting articles.
Pass your own judgement.

Haha, I know that one. But it's not offending, it's just a joke. We have similar "black humour" jokes about Ukrainians there too (e.g. regarding the Chernobyl disaster, etc.).


Jihadists? In Ukraine? Err, Crimean Tatars are the only large group of Muslims here (also some amount of Chechens living mostly in Crimea, too). But as long as the Russian troops are there, terrorist activity is veeeery unlikely.

pretty sure russian troops will be exactly what attracts terrorists activities. Don't forget that there is precedence when Chechens fought on georgian side in the Abkhaz conflict.

 

[Rage Racer]

Ohhh, nice. Finally an interview of a Russian army dude:



Guess not all of them are all that good at following orders, cause he not only talked to the press but outright said they are Russian forces. I'm actually kinda worried about that dude now.

That civilian man is funny. "Terrorists from Western Ukraine! Fascists! Banderas! Germans!"

Edit: a video shot yesterday, called "March, 3, 2014 Russian troops are leaving Kerch".

At 1:47, an English-speaking local tells what are the RF soldiers here for.

 

[Dotini]

Picked up on another forum I belong to. If it's propaganda, it's pretty slick.

Statement of the Foreign ministry of Estonia on the leaked conversation today found on the website of the Foreign Ministry:

"The recording of a telephone conversation between Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and High Representative Catherine Ashton that has been leaked online is authentic."

http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/19353


The conversation:




"Officers of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) loyal to the ousted President Viktor Yanukovich have hacked phones of Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton and leaked their conversation to the web. The officials discuss their impressions of what's happening in the country after the revolution. The gist of it is that Ukrainian people have no trust in any of the leaders of Maidan.
However the most striking thing of all is the fact which concerns the use of force during the revolution, particularly the snipers who killed both protesters and officers of the riot police. Mr. Paet reveals astonishing information which confirms the rumours that the snipers were employed by the leaders of Maidan."

Western media are still silent on the case.

 

[SMfan]

Mr. Paet reveals astonishing information which confirms the rumours that the snipers were employed by the leaders of Maidan."

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Implies the possibility - yeah, but confirms?
As for that the people don't belive the leaders, well, yes. The people really are afraid (wheter rationally or not) of the current leaders repeating the same mistakes. That was even outright stated.
So, I guess it's breaking news for people who thought that everything was cute and cuddly in Kiev, but nothing more, really.

P.S. I hope after the second leak in a week the reps learn to use some coded diplomatic lines or sumn.

 

[Dotini]

points made by Paet:
there is no trust of the people in the new government (2:35)
all of them in the new government have a dirty past (2:50)
the trust level (towards the new government) is absolutely low (3:20)

enormous pressure against (party of the region) members of parliament (3:40)

"uninvited visitors" enter in the night on party members (3:50)

journalists who were with me saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament (4:00)

people will not leave the street before real reforms start, it is not enough that there is just change of government (4:20)

the same Olga (from a civil society group) told me that people killed by snipers on both sides, among policemen and people on the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides, she showed me some photos and said she has a medical doctor and that it is the same handwriting and the same type of bullets and it is disturbing that the new coalition now don't want to investigate (8:25)

There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovich but it was somebody from the new coalition. (8:55)

it discredited itself from the very beginning this new coalition (9:20)

Now it's in the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

 

[BradTC12]

Obama has said the Russians are relying on a different set of lawyers.

You can't trust him no more than Putin

 

[JMoney]

So Kerry just stated that the Ukrainian Foreign Minister told him that his people wanted to have a stable government, and they wanted to live normal lives. So why not just annex to Russia? Russia has proven itself to be a stable nation, and the people will live in peace.

I'm tired of the media painting Russia as an antagonistic, imperialist led by a so-called dictator. They are trying to protect the Russians in Crimea, and they still haven't fired a shot.

 

[BradTC12]

Here, the major networks, most politicians and academics are urging the strongest possible measures.

Is our President acting weak or is he acting strong? Has he been led down the garden path by his own State Department??

We may have fomented a revolution that gets out of hand. Without unification of allies, nothing can stop it.

 

[Ryanswannell]

I just don't see what is wrong with Russia protecting their own people in Crimea.

 

[SMfan]

So Kerry just stated that the Ukrainian Foreign Minister told him that his people wanted to have a stable government, and they wanted to live normal lives. So why not just annex to Russia? Russia has proven itself to be a stable nation, and the people will live in peace.

Whoa... I don't even know what to say to that. Oh well, you ain't lived in Russia.

I'm tired of the media painting Russia as an antagonistic, imperialist led by a so-called dictator. They are trying to protect the Russians in Crimea, and they still haven't fired a shot.

I'm just wondering - are all media sources telling exactly the same thing? Or at least how many you've tried?
Oh, and "protecting Russians"... that's as true as "those are not Russian troops there".

I just don't see what is wrong with Russia protecting their own people in Crimea.

The fact that there is nothing to protect them from.

 

[VolkswagenX]

The people of Ukraine can only lose it seems. They are sick of the corruption but the new leader seems just as corrupt. They want independence from Russia but the west sees that as Ukraine becoming dependent on the EU. here a lot of Russia this and EU that but what the people of Ukraine want seems to not matter. It's like the people in charge telling the Ukrainian people: 'thanks for starting an uprising, but we will take over to give you a different brand of screwing up your lives' .

Can't really say I blame Russia for their actions in this mess. They see what really is happening and are protection their own interests.

 

[JMoney]

The fact that there is nothing to protect them from.

How about general chaos? Ukraine is extremely unstable, as it just overthrew their original government, only to replace it with a weak, illegitamite one. Ukraine is holding a territory whose population does not want to be part of Ukraine.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So Kerry just stated that the Ukrainian Foreign Minister told him that his people wanted to have a stable government, and they wanted to live normal lives. So why not just annex to Russia? Russia has proven itself to be a stable nation, and the people will live in peace.

I'm tired of the media painting Russia as an antagonistic, imperialist led by a so-called dictator. They are trying to protect the Russians in Crimea, and they still haven't fired a shot.

Huh? Do you have any idea what's actually going on...?

How about general chaos? Ukraine is extremely unstable, as it just overthrew their original government, only to replace it with a weak, illegitamite one. Ukraine is holding a territory whose population does not want to be part of Ukraine.

How odd, of all the Crimeans I saw interviewed today not a single one wanted to be part of a separate Crimea, they wanted to be part of independent Ukraine. And how do you formally find out what they want? A vote. As was planned, and as isn't likely to happen in Crimea now, or so I understand.

Ukraine's government wasn't replaced, I don't know where you got that idea from? Research the situation a bit more in case you end up making yourself look silly.