Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[JMoney]

Huh? Do you have any idea what's actually going on...?



How odd, of all the Crimeans I saw interviewed today not a single one wanted to be part of a separate Crimea, they wanted to be part of independent Ukraine. And how do you formally find out what they want? A vote. As was planned, and as isn't likely to happen in Crimea now, or so I understand.

Ukraine's government wasn't replaced, I don't know where you got that idea from? Research the situation a bit more in case you end up making yourself look silly.

60% of Crimea identify themselves as Russian. The local Crimean leader is welcoming the Russian intervention. Furthermore, there have been few signs of the Crimeans resisting the will of the Russian force.

The Ukrainian President was ousted. He fled to Russia, and he was replaced by an unelected PM, whom the west seems to see as legit. The new PM completed the coup by putting his opposition friends in power. That's a change in government, or at least leadership if you want to be technical. What do YOU think happened to cause the end of the violent protests?

I'm sitting on my couch, flipping between Fox News and CNN, both of which are talking about the crisis. What channel are you watching?

Accusing me of ignorance will not gain you any credibility.

 

[TenEightyOne]

60% of Crimea identify themselves as Russian. The local Crimean leader is welcoming the Russian intervention.

It could be more than 60%, but be careful of the distinction between Russian heritage and Russian nationality, the region's history is very complicated. Some local Crimean leaders are welcoming the Russian intervention. But some Crimean MPs are in parliament in Kiev voting. There is no one opinion, that's why a vote needs to be held.

Furthermore, there have been few signs of the Crimeans resisting the will of the Russian force.

What is there to resist? You know the Russians have been there a looooong time, right? Some of them live there. It's not like a full armoured invasion pushing the citizens into their homes.

The Ukrainian President was ousted. He fled to Russia, and he was replaced by an unelected PM, whom the west seems to see as legit.... that's a change in government, or at least leadership if you want to be technical.

No, the West (including your own Obama and Kerry) have continued to recognise the Kiev parliament (the government hasn't changed, that's not a technicality but a fact) and have called for elections to ratify the government as soon as possible. The current government is legitimate in international law and convention. Putin disagrees, but as Kerry said "he seems to be using different lawyers".

The new PM completed the coup by putting his opposition friends in power...accusing me of ignorance will not gain you any credibility.

The PM didn't replace the President, the new President-Unelect (Turchynov) replaced the ousted President. The new PM is Yatsenyuk, chosen by the ousted President to be Prime Minister, a role which he refused at the time and accepted after the revolution. He is no great friend of Turchynov and is reportedly a voluble enemy of Tymoshenko (who many say closely advises Turchynov).

I'm sitting on my couch, flipping between Fox News and CNN, both of which are talking about the crisis. What channel are you watching?

BBC, LeMonde, NYT, Reuters, AP, Sky/ITN, and (in the words of Telstar), many many more.

 

[SMfan]

How about general chaos? Ukraine is extremely unstable, as it just overthrew their original government, only to replace it with a weak, illegitamite one. Ukraine is holding a territory whose population does not want to be part of Ukraine.

Why would you?..

I'm sitting on my couch, flipping between Fox News and CNN, both of which are talking about the crisis. What channel are you watching?

Oh. Well, then don't watch them.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ban-ki Moon has the right idea, telling everyone to slow down.

 

[Azuremen]

I'm sitting on my couch, flipping between Fox News and CNN, both of which are talking about the crisis. What channel are you watching?

Fox News is not a valid source of information, regardless of what they'd like you to think. CNN isn't as bad, but they are certainly prone to picking and choosing, along with a very Democrat friendly way of approaching things.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Crimean MPs vote to join Russian union and to hold referendum for citizens 'to endorse the move'; BBC

If the referendum is open and genuine then this is the best outcome from where we are right now, perhaps? The precedent that Russia have set is a dangerous one though and action against them should be continued by economic and diplomatic means.

And some 'light reading'; Daily Mash: Call of Duty Coming True

 

[Rage Racer]

So Kerry just stated that the Ukrainian Foreign Minister told him that his people wanted to have a stable government, and they wanted to live normal lives. So why not just annex to Russia?

If you think Ukrainian people want this, you're sooo wrong. Ukrainians are a proud nation, and they won't let themselves be swallowed by a country where an anti-government protest will result like this or may result even in 4 years of imprisonment.

Russia has proven itself to be a stable nation, and the people will live in peace.

"Stability" is all we hear from the TV since the 2012 president election ("Putin is stability!"). Yes, we are stable - we're stable deep in ****. (c)

The local Crimean leader is welcoming the Russian intervention.

This "new Crimean leader" was assigned right after the parliament was seized by some armed "gentlemen".

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's not that far from this:

This "new Crimean leader" was assigned right after the parliament was seized by some armed "gentlemen".

To this:

This "new Ukrainian leader" was assigned right after the parliament was seized by some armed "gentlemen".

 

[Rage Racer]

And some 'light reading'; Daily Mash: Call of Duty Coming True

 

[Dotini]

Crimean MPs vote to join Russian union and to hold referendum for citizens 'to endorse the move'; BBC

If the referendum is open and genuine then this is the best outcome from where we are right now, perhaps? The precedent that Russia have set is a dangerous one though and action against them should be continued by economic and diplomatic means.

Perhaps not.
I'll take the other side of this for the moment, and say:
- This action is taken with suspicious pace and alacrity, trying to stampede transfer of sovereignty, territory or whatnot while Kiev and the West is still getting organized to pull its boots on and react.
- The presence of Spetsnaz or whomever they are can be construed as coercion.

The question of precedence, danger and "continued" or escalated rataliatory pressure is a different question.

 

[Lizard]

I have just had an International Relations lecture and it had some key points.

We all accuse Russia as being warmongering and having little (apart from the protestors) legitimacy to their claim but if you think about it the arguments they use are exactly the same as the ones we used for places like Libya and Syria. It also has similar reasons (core reasons not what Putin tells the public) to want the Crimea as us wanting Gibraltar yet we consider Gibraltar to be fine.

I am not saying I agree with Russia on this but it is worth thinking about.

 

[TenEightyOne]

- This action is taken with suspicious pace and alacrity, trying to stampede transfer of sovereignty, territory or whatnot while Kiev and the West is still getting organized to pull its boots on and react.
- The presence of Spetsnaz or whomever they are can be construed as coercion

I'm not saying that we should even be in the position we are now because we shouldn't, but the referendum is the best of the 'resolution' strategies so far.

That's not to say that a country should be able to force its way onto a territory and hold a referendum - I'm just assessing the situtation as it is now.

Are spetsnatz there (all I can ever think of when I hear that word is "Grabbed by the spetsbnatz, James?")? It wouldn't mean anything if they were, would it?

 

[Dotini]

I'm not saying that we should even be in the position we are now because we shouldn't, but the referendum is the best of the 'resolution' strategies so far.

That's not to say that a country should be able to force its way onto a territory and hold a referendum - I'm just assessing the situtation as it is now.

Are spetsnatz there (all I can ever think of when I hear that word is "Grabbed by the spetsbnatz, James?")? It wouldn't mean anything if they were, would it?

Dunno if the guys in the unmarked uniforms are anything more than local soldiers from the naval base, or just what. They do seem to have supervisors in civvies milling about amongst them, if I'm not mistaken. In truth, I wouldn't know a spetnatz if one bit me on the ankle. I've had only limited paramilitary service, and that many decades ago in the Vietnam era..

 

[SMfan]

Dunno if the guys in the unmarked uniforms are anything more than local soldiers from the naval base, or just what. They do seem to have supervisors in civvies milling about amongst them, if I'm not mistaken. In truth, I wouldn't know a spetnatz if one bit me on the ankle. I've had only limited paramilitary service, and that many decades ago in the Vietnam era..

To be honest, it doesn't even matter at this point. They are still unmarked and are wielding weapons where they shouldn't be. Ukrainians have every right to open fire, but they are just less powerful than Russians.
Obviously, it's not like they want to open fire, but if there were like 5 Russian dudes against all those Ukrainians, a couple warining shots woulda scared them away.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So Obama authorizes sanctions on Russia and restricts visas of some individual Russians.

lolwut.

 

[alucard0712]

Russian Invasion??? Oh God please, please...you guys too? (((((((

 

[Rage Racer]

Russian Invasion??? Oh God please, please...you guys too? (((((((

Hi there, Pavel.
Well, if it's not an invasion, then what? Our troops (called "Crimean self-defense force", lol) are already on the peninsula, and our president Vova is planning something more. We're here to discuss what, why and the possible consequences.

 

[zzz_pt]

Russian Invasion??? Oh God please, please...you guys too? (((((((

What would you think if you saw an army of another country in Russia? Turists? -.-'

 

[Mike Rotch]

So Obama authorizes sanctions on Russia and restricts visas of some individual Russians.

lolwut.

There is not much else he can do. Any action will hurt the US more then it will hurt Russia.

I am surprised nobody has yet mentioned any military action by the US will probably mean NASA gets booted out of the Russian space program.

 

[SMfan]

Russian Invasion??? Oh God please, please...you guys too? (((((((

Hi there, Pavel.
Well, if it's not an invasion, then what? Our troops (called "Crimean self-defense force", lol) are already on the peninsula, and our president Vova is planning something more. We're here to discuss what, why and the possible consequences.

In addition, the so-called parliament of Crimea has declared that Crimea is going to join the RF. BUT! There will be a referendum later, to presumably confirm what they've decided?! And the referendum was moved to March 16 making it virtually impossible to prepare for, further proving that they don't want to make an actual real referendum.
All of that is wrong on so many levels...

There is not much else he can do. Any action will hurt the US more then it will hurt Russia.

I feel that if the US and the EU get really "upset" and the situation goes full Cold War 2, they'll be able to pretty much destroy Russia by not buying any fuel at all. Sure, that'd hit the West really hard, but for Russia that'd mean complete death. The thing is, there's no middle ground between that and the current policy of amolst not doing anything.

 

[Rage Racer]

In addition, the so-called parliament of Crimea has declared that Crimea is going to join the RF. BUT! There will be a referendum later, to presumably confirm what they've decided?! And the referendum was moved to March 16 making it virtually impossible to prepare for, further proving that they don't want to make an actual real referendum.
All of that is wrong on so many levels...

Guess the results of the referendum. 146% for joining RF.
Mr. Churov will help to provide an election or a referendum quickly.

 

[Furinkazen]

Guess the results of the referendum. 146% for joining RF.

Something about those numbers suggests "not quite legit".

 

[Rage Racer]

Something about those numbers suggests "not quite legit".

"146%" is a well-known number for any Russian since the 2011 parliament election.
It's like a meme.

 

[SMfan]

"146%" is a well-known number for any Russian since the 2011 parliament election.
It's like a meme.

I believe it even became a worldwide meme for a while.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Otherwise the British government certainly aren't showing a lot of public interest; today's statements were squeaked out by Little Billy Hague, (or **** The Younger) while DavCam used his Very Serious Face to nod at a van assembly-line somewhere in the West Midlands.

Damn, they should have kept DavCam there.

The downside of a 'free' press is that you get to see your leaders for what they are, mostly pratts.

 

[Dotini]

The downside of a 'free' press is that you get to see your leaders for what they are, mostly pratts.

Yes, and Snowden and Russian tradecraft have added to the circus of the absurd. Frankly, I prefer Game of Thrones.

 

[alucard0712]

What would you think if you saw an army of another country in Russia? Turists? -.-'

Protecting 70+% of Russian people here? Defending Russian fleet?

It's not like they FORCED Crimea to do something, it's same people just on other territory. Of cource they want to join Russian Federation.

Search internet for latest situation in Crimea - it's about ONLY peaceful place in whole Ukraine. Even kindergartens are working at their normal state.

Unlike Kiev where were another armed intervention by "you know who" (one who make 10+ of those in just last 10 years, technology are well worked out). Even Yanukovich are signed "the Treaty of peace", but for bought foreign interventors that were not enough. They called snipers for further destabilization. Not to say that new govt in Kiev are completely illegal.

But from EU, USA point of view it's all by "dictator Putin, who want to Rule the World and eat your children", and ignoring that all of those political steps are LEGAL and comply with all laws and constitution.

Okay now President who LEGALLY defend their people and strategic fleet is now "dictator"... Hello USA,EU mass media, good-bye common sense! (as people don't want to think personally, just think what MM want they think). Well done mass media, well done!

(Update: Site of "Russian Gazette" were attacked by hackers of "Maydans hundred".
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2425503)

another +1 for information wars

If you want a new govt - at least make it legal, without molotov cocktails and snipers. Without calling about threats to the families of deputies and President.

 

[zzz_pt]

You shouldn't buy all the thing that the Russian media tells you.
I won't even argue against your "view". I'm sure there are russian people here with a more clear vision about this stuff.

Everything that Russia made is wrong in every single way. And there is not a single explanation that justifies it. Yanukovich and his "partners" should be put in jail and pay the billions they stole from ukranian people.

 

[alucard0712]

You shouldn't buy all the thing that the Russian media tells you.
I won't even argue against your "view". I'm sure there are russian people here with a more clear vision about this stuff.

Everything that Russia made is wrong in every single way. And there is not a single explanation that justifies it. Yanukovich and his "partners" should be put in jail and pay the billions they stole from ukranian people.

No doubt. Putin said that he not agree with Yanukovich, and said that he has no political future. But he is only legitimate president of Ukraine now, and he asked for political asylum. (he was threaten, his car was fired)

Everything that Russia made is wrong in every single way. And there is not a single explanation that justifies it.

It's actually all right and legitimate. And there are all well explained and legal too. Simply there is nothing to justify Act of invasion is fully legal too.

"The Russian Federation has the right to place in the Crimea 25 thousand military in the framework of the agreement on black sea fleet"

 

[SMfan]

No doubt. Putin said that he not agree with Yanukovich, and said that he has no political future. But he is only legitimate president of Ukraine now, and he asked for political asylum. (he was threaten, his car was fired)

It's actually all right and legitimate. And there are all well explained and legal too. Simply there is nothing to justify Act of invasion is fully legal too.

"The Russian Federation has the right to place in the Crimea 25 thousand military in the framework of the agreement on black sea fleet"