Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Dotini]

Nasty scenes, Ukraine activists attacked in Crimea

"The whippings will continue until morale improves"

 

[prisonermonkeys]

At this point, it seems inevitable that Crimea will break away. Even if you disregard the military forces and the rhetoric from both sides, it seems that almost every citizen has a position on the subject, and everyone is so deeply divided that reconciliation seems impossible.

 

[Rage Racer]

Read a joke today:
"Dear Ukrainians. Please, let Crimea, Donetsk and Kharkiv go to Russia. Life with Putin in power will be the worst punishment to the separatists."

 

[Dotini]

At this point, it seems inevitable that Crimea will break away. Even if you disregard the military forces and the rhetoric from both sides, it seems that almost every citizen has a position on the subject, and everyone is so deeply divided that reconciliation seems impossible.

I would like to think that Putin aspires to the status quo ante - influence in Kiev. He will never achieve that if he seizes Crimea and perforce the remainder of Ukraine turns west and nationalist. If he can work a deal where Russian influence is not sacrificed to the revolution, I think the Crimeans would either prefer that or anyway do as Putin wishes them to do to serve the bigger picture. So a united Ukraine with Crimea and Russian influence is the game. In chess parlance, a draw.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Is it not possible to satisfy both sides? I hear so much "Ukraine wants EU, Ukraine wants RF" nonsense, but why can't Ukraine just ask...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is it not possible to satisfy both sides? I hear so much "Ukraine wants EU, Ukraine wants RF" nonsense, but why can't Ukraine just ask...

Once again, you display a staggering lack of understanding.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

You really don't care to clarify on how I'm wrong, do you?


It really isn't that hard. RF is not USSR. RF is just a country with a tyrant running it. Yes, yes I did just call Putin a tyrant, because as far as I can tell, he basically is. EU shouldn't have such a problem with it. If the two of them could get along, the whole "control of the ports in the Black Sea/Mediterranean Sea" issue wouldn't really even matter.

Cold War is over.

 

[Dennisch]

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You really don't care to clarify on how I'm wrong, do you?

Once upon a time, I did. But then I gave up.

 

[Rage Racer]

Is it not possible to satisfy both sides? I hear so much "Ukraine wants EU, Ukraine wants RF" nonsense, but why can't Ukraine just ask...

Because the Customs Union (RF, Belarus and Kazakhstan) doesn't accept the EU membership - "choose only one!".
If Ukraine was both EU and CU member, it would be a bridge for European goods to be supplied to Russia (and Belarus, and Kazakhstan too) without duties. "Heey, what the hell?"

BMW 328i E46 costs €3000 in Poland and €13000 in Russia. You wouldn't want to buy a new Lada Priora for €8000 if you was able to have a better European car and much cheaper, right? But the Lada would be not sold at all and the company wouldn't stand on the market. They're trying to help the home manufacturers by raising the duties for the imports, and force us to buy those wrecks called Lada because the imports are overpriced. Assholes.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Because the Customs Union (RF, Belarus and Kazakhstan) doesn't accept the EU membership - "choose only one!".
If Ukraine was both EU and CU member, it would be a bridge for European goods to be supplied to Russia (and Belarus, and Kazakhstan too) without duties. "Heey, what the hell?"

BMW 328i E46 costs €3000 in Poland and €13000 in Russia. You wouldn't want to buy a new Lada Priora for €8000 if you was able to have a better European car and much cheaper, right? But the Lada would be not sold at all and the company wouldn't stand on the market. They're trying to help the home manufacturers by raising the duties for the imports, and force us to buy those wrecks called Lada because the imports are overpriced. Assholes.

So, back to my comments about Putin and tyranny...

 

[Dennisch]

So, back to my comments about Putin and tyranny...

It was a comment of you calling Putin a tyrant. What can we add to it?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

There's nothing to add to it. I was "adding" to Rage's post. Only tyrants will force their citizens to drive Lada.

 

[Rage Racer]

I don't think Putin is a real tyrant, he's just authoritarian. Not so close to Stalin or even Khruschev.
Most of the media is pro-governmental, but at least we can post anything we think on the Internet. And I can converse with you here.
For now. However, this country is still too far from real freedom.

As for Ukraine, this is a tough time for it, but I hope it will get stable and become freer and better to live than was before. Putin will definetly try to prevent the revolution from success, or compensate the lost infuence by chiping pieces away from the country. Yanukovich tried to be a dictator, but he couldn't even protect the "golden toilet" and the wealth he stole from his own people. Ukraine deserves a much better and honest government.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It really isn't that hard. RF is not USSR. RF is just a country with a tyrant running it. Yes, yes I did just call Putin a tyrant, because as far as I can tell, he basically is. EU shouldn't have such a problem with it. If the two of them could get along, the whole "control of the ports in the Black Sea/Mediterranean Sea" issue wouldn't really even matter.

Cold War is over.

Oh my GOD IT'S SO SIMPLE!

But yeah... no.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So, it's settled then: we send Tony Abbott in by helicopter gunship, blaring a Russian translation of "Why can't we be friends?" over a loudspeaker.

 

[Dennisch]

So, it's settled then: we send Tony Abbott in by helicopter gunship, blaring a Russian translation of "Why can't we be friends?" over a loudspeaker.

This guy is funnier:

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes, but that's so crazy it might just work. If we send Abbott, it's doomed to fail.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, but that's so crazy it might just work. If we send Abbott, it's doomed to fail.

Great, Ukraine Coach Trip is back on

I immediately thought of Clinton and Yeltsin dancing but they seemed like a couple of high-school lightweights compared to the party that Ford Brothers, Putin and That Mad Blonde Woman would throw.

Imagine waking up somewhere in Siberia and realising you've got to explain to the Politburo that you lost the whole of Crimea on one last game but that you now own all the hot-dog concessions in Toronto.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Putin wants to talk to John Kerry about resolving the situation. Finally, progress can be made.

Except that Kerry refused; he won't meet with Putin until Putin immediately and unquestionably complies with what are effectively demands.

 

[Rage Racer]

"Russians at Maidan". English subs included.
For those who think that Ukrainian revolutioners are rusophobes, fascists and nazis.

 

[eran0004]

"Russians at Maidan". English subs included.
For those who think that Ukrainian revolutioners are rusophobes, fascists and nazis.

Ukrainan revolutioners are a lot of things. Some are undeniably neo-nazis and fascists, Svoboda for instance. And it's a fact that neo-nazis from Sweden went to Kiev to assist the revolution by patrolling the streets and occupy buildings. I seriously doubt they would have done that unless like-minded organizations in Ukraine asked for assistance and I think it's likely that neo-nazis from other countries went there as well.

Two days ago, a group of neo-nazis who had just returned from Ukraine attacked a group of people participating in a manifestation for women's rights in Malmö, Sweden. They stabbed at least three people, one critically.

Of course, that doesn't make everyone or even a majority of those participating in the revolution or killed by the police neo-nazis. It's hard to speculate how many they were, but it's reasonable to think that those who were there was not to be found sitting around the camp-fire and singing Kumbaya. These are violent elements, they prefer to present their arguments with explosives rather than words.

And fact is that as a result of the revolution, a neo-nazi party is now in the government of Ukraine.

 

[SMfan]

And fact is that as a result of the revolution, a neo-nazi party is now in the government of Ukraine.

Yes. Buuuut, if you've been following what their leaders have been saying since taking official roles, you cщuld see that they've softened their rhetorics significantly.
Not that it makes them all angels or whatever. It's just that you can't be an official rep while showcasing the most radical of views.

Granted, I still don't want almost-Nazis (or de-facto Nazis) to be in any parliament.

 

[Rage Racer]

Ukrainan revolutioners are a lot of things. Some are undeniably neo-nazis and fascists, Svoboda for instance.

Well, Oleg Tyahnibok, the leader of Svoboda, has clearly told that he intends to make no oppression or discrimination for the national minorities in Ukraine, on a conference in the Rada.

And it's a fact that neo-nazis from Sweden went to Kiev to assist the revolution by patrolling the streets and occupy buildings. I seriously doubt they would have done that unless like-minded organizations in Ukraine asked for assistance and I think it's likely that neo-nazis from other countries went there as well.

Nazis of different nations from different countries (including Belarus and the "hated" Russia) helping each other? Doesn't it break the principles of nazism (Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer)? Or maybe you just confuse nazism and nationalism?

Granted, I still don't want almost-Nazis (or de-facto Nazis) to be in any parliament.

The media does everything for you to believe that nationalism = nazism = fascism.
As well as revolutioners = extremists = terrorists.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, Oleg Tyahnibok, the leader of Svoboda, has clearly told that he intends to make no oppression or discrimination for the national minorities in Ukraine, on a conference in the Rada.

So we're just going to take a neo-Nazi's word for it that he's going to be all about peace and tolerance?

There's no way that plan can end badly.

 

[SMfan]

The media does everything for you to believe that nationalism = nazism = fascism.
As well as revolutioners = extremists = terrorists.

Unless the media support the revolutioners - in which case they are "people fighting for freedom".

Welp, if there's a faschist-type gov-ment somwhere, we both know that country. And in this case I mean a government that blindly follows their leader to whatever extremes and insanities he's takin' 'em to.

So we're just going to take a neo-Nazi's word for it that he's going to be all about peace and tolerance?

There's no way that plan can end badly.

He's a politician now. He's gonna have to be quieter and more peaceful. Now that in no way guarantees him never lying, but that's a totally different story.

The thing is, at this point the most important thing is for Ukraine to establish a more democratic way of forming their gov-ment. I they manage to do that, Tyahnibok may be gone from his current position pretty soon. Right now we just gotta wait and see how things shake out.

 

[Keef]

I hope their air this on TV. It's about to get awesome.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Unless the media support the revolutioners - in which case they are "people fighting for freedom".

Yes, I think the saying used to be; "To the victors the typewriters".

 

[eran0004]

Yes. Buuuut, if you've been following what their leaders have been saying since taking official roles, you cщuld see that they've softened their rhetorics significantly.
Not that it makes them all angels or whatever. It's just that you can't be an official rep while showcasing the most radical of views.

Granted, I still don't want almost-Nazis (or de-facto Nazis) to be in any parliament.

One of the first things they did, one of the things they thought was the most urgent change to be made, was to abolish the law that gave Russian the status of minority language in regions where more than 10% is Russian-speaking.

Well, Oleg Tyahnibok, the leader of Svoboda, has clearly told that he intends to make no oppression or discrimination for the national minorities in Ukraine, on a conference in the Rada.

His previous statements includes:

"A Jewish mafia from Moscow is ruling Ukraine" (2004)

"They weren't scared and we shall not be scared. They brought their guns into the forest and fought moscovites, jews, germans and other enemies that wanted to take control of Ukraine." (2004)

In 2005 he demanded that the president should investigate the "organized Jewish crimes".

The chief ideologist, Jurij Mychaltjysjyn (that's the Swedish spelling, sorry for that) said in 2011 that the holocaust was a golden age in the European civilization.

Nazis of different nations from different countries (including Belarus and the "hated" Russia) helping each other? Doesn't it break the principles of nazism (Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer)? Or maybe you just confuse nazism and nationalism?

A stronger neo-nazi movement in one country will benefit neo-nazi groups in other countries as well. As they also share a common belief, common heroes, common conspiracy theories and common enemies there's more that unites neo-nazis than separates them.

At this point I might just let SvP (Svenskarnas Parti, a Swedish neo-nazi party) speak for themselves, this is from their February newsletter:

"Svenskarnas parti har likt många andra följt utvecklingen i Ukraina med stort intresse och vi stödjer principiellt det ukrainska folkets befrielsekamp gentemot en förtryckande och folkfientlig regim. Det nationalistiska partiet Svoboda, som Svenskarnas parti har god kontakt med och som gästade partiets konferens Vision Europa för knappt ett år sedan, har spelat och fortsätter att spela en viktig roll i denna pågående revolution."

Translation:

"SvP has, like many others, been following the development in Ukraine with great interest and by principle we support the Ukrainan people's fight for liberation from an opressing and nation-hostile regime. The nationalistic party Svoboda, which SvP has good relations with and that visited the party's conference Vision Europa less than a year ago, has played and keeps playing an important role in this ongoing revolution."

(Vision Europa is a nasty place, basically a convention for nazi, fascist and ultranationalists from all over Europe. So yes, they do have an international network.)

The media does everything for you to believe that nationalism = nazism = fascism.
As well as revolutioners = extremists = terrorists.

Nope, the media is hardly telling this story at all. At least not in Sweden. Here they focus on the "new arabic spring" and the big bad wolf Russia. If media in Russia is one-sided, the same can be said about media in Sweden. I've had to do my own research to find these things. They did mention by the end of the demonstrations that there was a rise in far-right extremism, but as soon as Russia mobilized they completely dropped the ball and forgot everything.

And yes, SvP is definitely a neo-nazi group, of that there's no doubt. Svoboda was founded as an outspoken neo-nazi group (they even had their own militia for a while), not even 20 years ago. 10 years ago they found that it was hard to win elections wearing brown shirts and wolfangels, so they conducted a brand-wash. Make no mistake though, underneath the sheep's clothing they haven't changed.

 

[Rage Racer]

@prisonermonkeys , @eran0004
I've been talking with some people from Ukraine and they say that Tyahnibok is a "clown politician" and almost nobody takes him seriously, just like Vladimir Zhirinovskiy (the leader of LDPR party who's sitting in the Duma) in Russia. @SMfan , do you remember how Zhirik called to "fence Caucasus out with barbed wire"? But nobody calls LDPR a nazi party.
Most of Tyahnibok's earlier statements are just ridiculous, too (Jewish mafia, lol). But now he has much more authority than he used to have before, so he can't be such a clown anymore (or, at least, make his clown intentions come true).

"SvP has, like many others, been following the development in Ukraine with great interest and by principle we support the Ukrainan people's fight for liberation from an opressing and nation-hostile regime. The nationalistic party Svoboda, which SvP has good relations with and that visited the party's conference Vision Europa less than a year ago, has played and keeps playing an important role in this ongoing revolution."

(Vision Europa is a nasty place, basically a convention for nazi, fascist and ultranationalists from all over Europe. So yes, they do have an international network.)

Well, if they really are not about racial discrimination, just about struggling the oppressing regimes - then what's bad about them?