Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[R.S]

She actually looks quite a bit like Putin!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, he had to do something to make up for the way he did not ride a polar bear bare-chested into the Olympic Stadium to light the cauldron with a flaming spear. That was very disappointing.

 

[Dotini]

From the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity comes this lengthy analysis of the Americans who put together the coup in Kiev.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...ricans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev.aspx

 

[Rage Racer]

@terminator363

BTW, Transnistria now wants to join RF too (as we assumed)!
And, the person who stated this was the Foreign Minister of Transnistria, Nina Shtanski.

What is this, Putin's secret weapon?

 

[Touring Mars]

Things are really hotting up in Transnistria...

 

[terminator363]

 

[TenEightyOne]

Crimea, m'dear

(dons Kenny Everett chin and smoking jacket...)

 

[Dotini]

http://www.friatider.se/swede-patrols-ukraines-streets-with-right-wing-paramilitaries

A view from a nationalist Swedish paramilitary volunteer on the streets of Kiev.

 

[Jet Badger]

Ukrainian soldiers took over the Mars75 navigaton station in eastern Ukraine that belongs to RF's Black sea navy.

 

[Dotini]

Those inclined to worry about WWIII might want to arrange time on the schedules for the next few days.

Russian forces are massed in large numbers on the borders and appear poised to race deep in the Ukraine.

A wide sweep will gather up Karkhiv, Donetsk, Odessa and on through to the borders of Romania.

If this happens, prepare for great wails of fear as well as towering rages of anger.

_______

In these circumstances, it will always be possible to escalate a problem of finite, realistic proportions to an apocalyptic encounter between Good and Evil. Some ideologue may be intemperate enough to shout that, "Might does not make right! Therefore total war, even mutually assured destruction, is justified and must be waged for the sake of democracy and human rights!"

 

[Touring Mars]

I think you're forgetting something - NATO doesn't have the will to fight over Ukraine - therefore no WWIII this week.

If the Russians do launch a full scale assault on Ukraine, it could be a catastrophic mistake. As one observer pointed out, when the enemy is about to make a terrible mistake, don't stand in his way.

 

[Rage Racer]

Those inclined to worry about WWIII might want to arrange time on the schedules for the next few days.

Russian forces are massed in large numbers on the borders and appear poised to race deep in the Ukraine.

A wide sweep will gather up Karkhiv, Donetsk, Odessa and on through to the borders of Romania.

I don't think there's a full scale invasion going to happen right now. The Crab is not that stupid.
Troops movement is a normal thing for any political crisis. This is just to be ready for the worst situation. If nuclear missiles are being stationed, this doesn't mean they are going to be launched soon, right?
______________________________
I am worried by another thing now.
When Oleksandr "Bily" Muzychko, the notorious commander of Right Sector units in Rovno Oblast, was eliminated by police forces, the leader of the Right Sector organization, Dmitro Yarosh, vowed revenge to the head of MVD, Arsen Avakov.
In response, Avakov said that he "accepts the challenge" and stated: "we won't let any bandits disobey the laws and order, no matter if thay are Right Sector or whatever how they call themselves".

See? A politician of the new government calling their former allies bandits, officially!
In February, the politicians opposing Yanukovich (those who are in power now - Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, Klichko, and other oligarchs) and the radical organizations (Right Sector, Svoboda, Samooborona Maidanu, etc.) were on one side. Now, Yatsenyuk is on the top, but the radicals want their slice of the cake, too. The oligarchs used to share the authority with them - allowed Right Sector to become a legal armed structure and form military units - the "National Guard of Ukraine", and some more. But they want more, and the new government doesn't share any more. Sashko Bily was the one with very tense relations with the local authorities and attorney in Rovno, so he was the first target. And sure not the last. The Right Sector won't leave this unanswered, too...

Yanukovich's regime is gone, but the revolution is not over yet. The new stage of the crisis is beginning - former comrades are about to bite each others' throats like spiders in a jar. Yatsenyuk needed the radicals to gain the power, but now they are no use to him anymore.

Besides, the new government is making some idiotic laws that just dig a deeper grave for the country being already deep in ****. I've been talking to some Ukrainians recently, most of them say "what the ****? The new government is even more crap then the previous! The revolution's ****ed up?!"

 

[TenEightyOne]

As one observer pointed out, when the enemy is about to make a terrible mistake, don't stand in his way.

Napoleon? I remember the Dan Snow thing where he mentioned it but not the battle or the leader

@RageRacer, it might be a ****-up, but it's a democratic ****-up. Welcome to Tomorrow

 

[Keef]

Ukrainian soldiers took over the Mars75 navigaton station in eastern Ukraine that belongs to RF's Black sea navy.

Can't blame 'em. Russia wants Crimea, they can have it, but they need to remove themselves from Ukraine as part of the deal. I think this is a fair move by Ukraine. I think Russia should concede this because pushing any further into Ukraine is a dumb idea. They don't have public support there so it won't do them any favors. If they have things they need to move from this station to elsewhere then Ukraine should let them do that.

EDIT: Wait a second, this isn't even a story! According to the article, Russian forces are long gone from this location. The only "story" here is that the Ukrainian military kicked Ukrainian civilians out of there and are now holed up there. Russia doesn't give a squat about it.

EDIT 2: I don't get why people keep "worrying" about this region either. I don't think there's anything to worry about here. Nobody in the region is able to stand up to Russia. If anything, they're wrong for not giving up areas which want to be part of Russia. On the other side of the coin, Russia can't stand up to the US, UN and EU notwithstanding. If we had to wipe their ass it would be like Desert Storm all over again except we'd never have to fire up a tank. Meanwhile we could tell the UN, no thanks, it'll be easier if we just do it ourselves.

 

[Rage Racer]

@RageRacer, it might be a ****-up, but it's a democratic ****-up. Welcome to Tomorrow

Don't confuse democracy and anarchy. As Prosecutor-chan has said, "This is just chaos!"
However, one of my friends in Kiev tells that the revolution didn't change his life at all, the city is still kinda safe like it was before.

Can't blame 'em. Russia wants Crimea, they can have it, but they need to remove themselves from Ukraine as part of the deal. I think this is a fair move by Ukraine.

Considering that 96% of Ukrainian fleet based in Crimea was seized by the Russians - it's less than a fair move.
There's also a dolphin military training base in Sevastopol that is now Russian - the newspaper headline was "Military dolphins defected to Russia. Because they are intelligent."

It should be noted that Ukrainian army is in terrible condition at all. Their mobilization already had serious accdents.
A week ago, five T-64BV tanks were destroyed by fire in Kriviy Rih when a crew tried to check the redio. The radio short-cut because the wires were too old and worn out, then the fire caught four tanks nearby and they started exploding because they all were fully loaded with fuel and ammo. Fortunately, no human casualties.
A day later, a Su-24M bomber crashed during the landing approach in Khmelnitsky Oblast. Both pilots bailed out and survived.
And some more accidents later - another T-64 in Kherson Oblast, a Msta-S self-propelled howitzer, and more.

So, the casualties of Ukrainian armed forces by now are:

6 T-64 tanks
1 Msta-S self-propelled howitzer
1 Su-24M bomber
2 BTR-80's
96% of the fleet

And we didn't even shoot!

If we had to wipe their ass it would be like Desert Storm all over again except we'd never have to fire up a tank. Meanwhile we could tell the UN, no thanks, it'll be easier if we just do it ourselves.

Russia is not Iraq. The "Gentlemen Troops" are very capable of fighting on their own territory (or close to it).
Germans thought that Operation Barbarossa would be a quick and successful Blitzkrieg, too.

 

[Keef]

I'm not necessarily saying Russia isn't capable. What I'm saying is that I, as an American citizen, don't really know what sort of weapons my own military has because they don't tell us about the crazy stuff. They're off in the desert right now firing plasma and lasers and all sorts of nonsense.

Honestly, I hate the UN so much that I'm supporting Russia through this ordeal. The fact that the entire West is against them is rather amusing. That's probably the best way to make an actual enemy.

 

[Dotini]

I am worried by another thing now.

Yanukovich's regime is gone, but the revolution is not over yet. The new stage of the crisis is beginning - former comrades are about to bite each others' throats like spiders in a jar. Yatsenyuk needed the radicals to gain the power, but now they are no use to him anymore.

Ukraine Interim President Blasts Right Sector ‘Destabilization’
Protest Movement Now a Problem for New Govt
by Jason Ditz, March 28, 2014

Masks, swastikas, and a paramilitary attitude define the “Right Sector” movement in Ukraine, which played a huge role in the protests that ousted President Yanukovych, and installed the pro-West interim government there.

Interim President Oleksandr Turchinov is now angrily condemning the Right Sector himself, insisting the group is a “destabilizing” influence on the country, apparently ignoring that it was this very destabilization that ousted the elected government and put him in power in the first place.

The fact isn’t lost on the Right Sector, which is openly promising to kill the interim Interior Minister after the death of one of their leaders in a police shootout, and is also warning that others in the interim government could face similar retaliation if they don’t give the protest movement what it wants.

The Right Sector’s protests have picked up pace in recent days, and the group is now surrounding parliament once again, mostly demanding the ouster of the Interior Minister and other security officials involved in the shootout.

 

[Rage Racer]

I'm not necessarily saying Russia isn't capable. What I'm saying is that I, as an American citizen, don't really know what sort of weapons my own military has because they don't tell us about the crazy stuff. They're off in the desert right now firing plasma and lasers and all sorts of nonsense.

Who told you that Russians don't do the same, somewhere in Siberia or Novaya Zemlya?
Tsar Bomb and Topol-M weren't made in one day, too.

@Dotini
Exactly what I'm talking about.
Yarosh is now afraid for his ass. He is driven in an armored car (Chevy Suburban, probably from Yanukovich's garage) and walks with a lot of security.

Photos taken on the funeral of Muzychko in Rivne (Rovno).

 

[mister dog]

http://news.yahoo.com/darth-vader-runs-president-ukraine-172730691.html

I hope he wins, and has to go to summits in Brussels dressed up to discuss Ukraine's future.

 

[Rage Racer]

Yeah, I heard. He's the only cool candidate, really.
Yatsenyuk, Klichko, Tyahnybok, Timoshenko, Yarosh - they're all nothing if the Sith Lord runs for president.

 

[Jet Badger]

There seems to be some events in Donetsk right now. Looks like some separatist group wants to have a referrendum on the autonomy of the region and then join RF. Ukraine blames Russia for purposely causing the fuss.

 

[Rage Racer]

Yes. They proclaimed themselves as "Donetsk Republic".

Kinda like this.

The same is happening in Kharkiv (Харьков on that map, to the north of Donetsk) and Lugansk (Луганск, to the east). They want a referendum, too.
And, I'm afraid there's a possibility of some more Gentlemen Troops (c) coming in to "ensure the safety of the referendum".

 

[SMfan]

Yes. They proclaimed themselves as "Donetsk Republic".

Maaaan, that is just effin' ridiculous. Following the same logic a bunch of drunk students could lock themselves inside a lecture room and call it a "sovereign state".

 

[Rage Racer]

Maaaan, that is just effin' ridiculous. Following the same logic a bunch of drunk students could lock themselves inside a lecture room and call it a "sovereign state".

Haha, but they conquer the governmental buldings, this is a lot more serious than just a drunk debauch.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Maaaan, that is just effin' ridiculous. Following the same logic a bunch of drunk students could lock themselves inside a lecture room and call it a "sovereign state".

I seem to remember a British comedian creating his own flag and claiming sovereignty over some part of this sceptic isle. It might have been Canvey Island, but anyway... he sent the appropriate notice off to the government or whoever and they wrote back and said it all seemed a splendid idea but they couldn't possibly allow it. And that was that.

The trick is to get enough people to vote in your election - Putin would argue that that's what he's done, the rest of the world thinks he's laid the ground a bit roughly.

The drunken students may well lock themselves in a boardroom and somehow find themselves with enough votes to hold a majority, we ourselves have had a number of Labour governments.

 

[Rage Racer]

Donetsk.

The new trend of Crimean resorts - Mi-35 gunships above the beaches, so low.

 

[Keef]

Anybody care to explain again why these areas want to be Russian states? Is it a matter of culture, ethnicity, religion? Or is there a perceived economic or security benefit to being Russian instead of Ukrainian? Is it some sort of Soviet-esque propaganda that has miraculously swung the population so thoroughly is such a short period of time? Don't they think they'd be better off economically as part of the EU?

 

[Dotini]

Anybody care to explain again why these areas want to be Russian states? Is it a matter of culture, ethnicity, religion? Or is there a perceived economic or security benefit to being Russian instead of Ukrainian? Is it some sort of Soviet-esque propaganda that has miraculously swung the population so thoroughly is such a short period of time? Don't they think they'd be better off economically as part of the EU?

These areas want to be more closely affiliated with Russia because the people living there are heavily ethnic Russians and Russian speakers. On top of that, they perceive that they will receive higher pay and pensions under a Russian regime than an Ukrainian one. They see Ukraine as a weak failed state, penniless and led by starry-eyed idealists into onerous reforms and austerities by the new government dancing to IMF dictates in return for unrepayable loans and sky-high energy costs. For them, it's an obvious and easy choice.

 

[SMfan]

Anybody care to explain again why these areas want to be Russian states? Is it a matter of culture, ethnicity, religion? Or is there a perceived economic or security benefit to being Russian instead of Ukrainian? Is it some sort of Soviet-esque propaganda that has miraculously swung the population so thoroughly is such a short period of time? Don't they think they'd be better off economically as part of the EU?

These areas want to be more closely affiliated with Russia because the people living there are heavily ethnic Russians and Russian speakers. On top of that, they perceive that they will receive higher pay and pensions under a Russian regime than an Ukrainian one. They see Ukraine as a weak failed state, penniless and led by starry-eyed idealists into onerous reforms and austerities by the new government dancing to IMF dictates in return for unrepayable loans and sky-high energy costs. For them, it's an obvious and easy choice.

About the whole "ethnic Russian" and especially "Russian-speaking" - those things are exclusively psychological.
Russians and Ukrainians weren't too far away from each other to begin with, but they're also heavily mixed, so the decision to call yourself Russian or Ukrainian is for the person to make.

Y'know, I would agree with what @Dotini said there (except the "ethnic Russians"), but honestly, people think in a much less complicated way.
Basically, people tend to find and define an enemy, that they could fight. And finding an enemy for a big group of people - like the occupants of a country - is the easiest way of uniting them and making "firghting the enemy" their prime objective. That is why propaganda largely relies on those principles.

Sooo... what I wanted to say something about less complicated...

Yeah, for many Ukrainians (especially ones in the Western ans central regions, obviously) the Soviet Union/Russia combination has become that enemy, whilst for others (mainly in the S-E regions mentioned above) the old Soviet ideas of "rotting West" are still intact (like for most Russians nowadays ) and their enemies are the EU and the US.

The "reasoning" (I mean how people explain it) of why people prefer one side or the other comes after the preference.
The more realistic reasons are propaganda and tradition.

 

[Rage Racer]

Anybody care to explain again why these areas want to be Russian states? Is it a matter of culture, ethnicity, religion? Or is there a perceived economic or security benefit to being Russian instead of Ukrainian? Is it some sort of Soviet-esque propaganda that has miraculously swung the population so thoroughly is such a short period of time?

1. Yes, cultural causes. Donbass (the area of Donetsk) is another historically Russian area (not as epic as Crimea though), it was given to Ukraine by Lenin in the 1920's. Most of the population are Russian-speaking and many even determine themselves as Russians. For all of the Soviet era, Donbass was just a territory of USSR, being owned by the Ukrainian SSR nominally, the state language of the Union was Russian, so the locals didn't bother learning Ukrainian anyway. Even after the collapse of USSR and Ukrainian becoming the only official language, they still used Russian as their communication language.

I've been to Donetsk once, that was a long time ago, but I remember none of the people I heard speaking Ukrainian here. The only visible difference from RF was the car plates, and the language on road signs, billboards / commercial writings (law requirement).

Kharkiv (Russian name - Kharkov) and Luhansk (or Lugansk, was Russian before the Soviets, too) have strong ties with RF, too. Many of those people have relatives and friends in the bordering Russian areas (Belgorod, Rostov, Taganrog).

2. The Right Sector nationalist movement is seen by many of the eastern Ukrainians as "Facsists! Nazis! Bandera followers!!11". This is mostly a result of propaganda (actually, the RS doesn't harm or prosecute any Russians for their nationality or language, unlike our media says), but there is some sort of truth - they honor Stepan Bandera and UPA (Ukrainian Rebel Army) - very controversal people in the WWII history. Besides, the Right Sector intends to make Ukraine a mono-national country by providing a de-rusification process, but how are they going to stop the east from speaking Russian on public?

3. Economics, yes. RF is better in terms of infrastructure and social policy (pensions, etc). And the revolution doesn't provide any positive changes soon yet - it's probably getting even worse. Russia is not as good as Europe here, but it's the least of two evils.

Don't they think they'd be better off economically as part of the EU?

It's not that likely that Ukraine joins EU sooner or later. Yatsenyuk declined the EU association agreement just like Yanukovich did.
And even joining EU doesn't guarantee getting richer.