Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[terminator363]

The American support goes beyond the cookies...

I like cookies.

 

[Rage Racer]

I like cookies.

First - cookies and money, then - Humvees and ammunition. What's next?
It won't be a surprise if Sloviansk gets assaulted by Abrams tanks and Kerry says "No-no-no, the United States are not intended to escalate the crisis, we don't support violence! Hey Russia, want some more sanctions?"

 

[terminator363]

 

[Rage Racer]

http://rt.com/news/156480-odessa-fire-protesters-dead/
UPD: reports of over 40 died in the fire.

 

[GTracer98]

Found this thread, subscribing, as all this is interesting me for months.

There is a video which I found, thought I'd share it. Warning: the information there could be offensive and it is pro-russian at times. But I'm just sharing, the rest is up to you to judge.

 

[Xilor]

http://rt.com/news/156480-odessa-fire-protesters-dead/
UPD: reports of over 40 died in the fire.

Odessa is my hometown, absolutely horrible.

My advice to Mr. Turchynov would be to forget the east, and rush all available resources to Odessa. Without access to the Black Sea, Kiev's aspirations are much diminished.

Odessa have been pro-Russia since the start of the conflict. They have a very large Russian population (officially its 30% but its actually much higher) and other large ethnic minorities who want nothing to do with the new Ukrainian government. With the **** that went down there today I can see them following Donetsk in open revolt.

 

[Rage Racer]

Found this thread, subscribing, as all this is interesting me for months.

There is a video which I found, thought I'd share it. Warning: the information there could be offensive and it is pro-russian at times. But I'm just sharing, the rest is up to you to judge.

You're welcome. Good to see people from Latvia taking a balanced point.
Good video, I don't think it's too much pro-Russian, it seems quite balanced. Goblin is a nice guy, maybe he exaggerates the things about Nazis, but he does have point. And he criticizes the Russian government, too.

 

[SMfan]

Found this thread, subscribing, as all this is interesting me for months.

There is a video which I found, thought I'd share it. Warning: the information there could be offensive and it is pro-russian at times. But I'm just sharing, the rest is up to you to judge.

You're welcome. Good to see people from Latvia taking a balanced point.
Good video, I don't think it's too much pro-Russian, it seems quite balanced. Goblin is a nice guy, maybe he exaggerates the things about Nazis, but he does have point. And he criticizes the Russian government, too.

I'm SAWRY to hurt anybody's feelings, but Goblin is one of the vatn-iest vatniks in the Russian internet sphere. He might not show it when talking about non-political things, but as soon as he touches some vaguely political issues, his stance becomes evident. (Un/-fortunately) I'm not able to watch this current vid, but considering its name, and his overall views, he prolly talks about Bandera's followers and Nazis taking over errrythang, and that Europeans and Americans are stupid.

___________________________________

About Odessa... Damn. That was some harsh s**t.

The Some cops there tried to help the separatists at first (which is weird, considering Odessa has always been pro-united-Ukraine - something is veeeery wrong with the police there). Not that I'd want the police to join the more aggressive Ukraininans, but it'd be nice to stop escalation from both sides, instead of joining one of them.
And as the number of pro-Ukraine people increased, most of the police just stopped doing anything, at all.
Looks like the separatists tried to do the same thing in Odessa as they succesfully pulled in Donetsk, and apparently they got greenlight form the local police. And it went very wrong.

 

[GTracer98]

I'll respect both of your opinions, guys. I must say that Latvians actually aren't pro-russian (except some) at all. We have been in the Russian Empire for 200 years, and after that another 50 in the USSR. Half of the population of Riga is Russian (which I would be perfectly fine with if they all learned Latvian). That explains why some of us are scared that Putin will want Latvia next. But who knows what his real purpose of all this is.

But I've read a lot about this, and, I must say, I haven't sided with anyone. I find it wrong that Russia simply takes back Crimea based on it's historical importance to the Russian people. I also don't like the high amount of revolutions that Ukraine has been going through in the last years. The presidental elections are scheduled on 25 May, hopefully nothing horrible will happen then (like what happened in Odesa).

 

[Jet Badger]

I don't believe Putin will try to invade any of the Baltic states. The "historical russian land" card won't work there and I really doubt they could convince anyone with the "anti-russian nazis" propaganda after we already saw that. Ukraine already had massive problems and RF used the situation to it's benefit but Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland are all EU/NATO countries. Any russian military activity there would pretty much be a WWIII declaration.

 

[GTracer98]

I don't believe Putin will try to invade any of the Baltic states. The "historical russian land" card won't work there and I really doubt they could convince anyone with the "anti-russian nazis" propaganda after we already saw that. Ukraine already had massive problems and RF used the situation to it's benefit but Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland are all EU/NATO countries. Any russian military activity there would pretty much be a WWIII declaration.

Especially after the US lent us part of their army and some fighter planes... I see what you mean. But I'm sure there are some ****** up people who actually want WWIII.

However, they could try to convince that Latvians were Nazi-friendly. I mean, in 1941 when the Nazis came in Latvia, the people here were awaiting them with flowers, not to mention Arajs Kommando which carried the Holocaust in the Latvian territory.

Also, we have the Latvian Legion Day which has received a lot of contorversy, since it can be considered Nazi honouring.

 

[Rage Racer]

I'm SAWRY to hurt anybody's feelings, but Goblin is one of the vatn-iest vatniks in the Russian internet sphere.

I don't think he's much of a true vatnik, more like a Sovietf*g. But leave this alone, because...

I'm not able to watch this current vid...

I'm not a vatnik, too, but this vid is worth watching, believe me.
Face it - the revolution is screwed up. There is nothing about democracy here, this is just a fight of two oligarch groups. And those who won it now, they're tightening the nuts just more than Yanyk did. And it's not even a real revolution (he explains why), just a coup d'etat.

he prolly talks about ..., and that Europeans and Americans are stupid.

No, nothing like that. Just watch it and you won't regret this. Goblin explains it in a funny manner.

That explains why some of us are scared that Putin will want Latvia next.

Nooo.
Crimea was always a kinda "saint" land for Russian people, and especially Sevastopol - the city of Russian military glory (the glorious battle history, and our fleet is there).
The Baltic states are not. The Crab won't have much support from the people if he gets his pincers there. And of course, as Jet Badger has noticed, they are NATO members, so they are under a solid protection.

I find it wrong that Russia simply takes back Crimea based on it's historical importance to the Russian people.

Not only the "historic importance", but also because the locals really wanted it. >90% of them were greeting the "invaders".

 

[GTracer98]

Not only the "historic importance", but also because the locals really wanted it. >90% of them were greeting the "invaders".

Here I must add that the referendum was done "under tank barrels". And I've read that the results might have been faked. But then, nowadays so many sources are lying that I don't even know who to believe.

It's true that Crimea is mainly of Russian ethnicity and that Russian is spoken there mainly. And also the historical importance of Crimea and Sevastopol. However, I think that if a territory is part of a country, any other country shouldn't start a military intervention.

 

[Dotini]

It's true that Crimea is mainly of Russian ethnicity and that Russian is spoken there mainly. And also the historical importance of Crimea and Sevastopol. However, I think that if a territory is part of a country, any other country shouldn't start a military intervention.

Should and shouldn't are vague, weak and meaningless terms.

The strong do as they will, the weak do as they must.
Might makes right.
The ends justify the means.

The US can and does invade any country we want to. We spin beautiful lies about rights, justice and democracy before or after the fact to justify our actions. But never doubt that we do it because we are strong and self-righteous. Words are wind.

 

[GTracer98]

Should and shouldn't are vague, weak and meaningless terms.

The strong do as they will, the weak do as they must.
Might makes right.
The ends justify the means.

The US can and does invade any country we want to. We spin beautiful lies about rights, justice and democracy before or after the fact to justify our actions. But never doubt that we do it because we are strong and self-righteous. Words are wind.

Ok, let me resentence:

No country has the rights to invade any other country.

However, all of history consists of territorial conquests, there's no reason to think it'll ever stop.

You are American which means you're better informed than me about the US. I agree that the US has always interfered with other countries problems. My dad always talks about western propaganda but we have to remember the eastern propaganda as well. Maybe it really is like Goblin said, that we're just living under the control of oligarchs and none of them are "the good guys".

 

[Dotini]

Ok, let me resentence:

No country has the rights to invade any other country.

However, all of history consists of territorial conquests, there's no reason to think it'll ever stop.

You are American which means you're better informed than me about the US. I agree that the US has always interfered with other countries problems. My dad always talks about western propaganda but we have to remember the eastern propaganda as well. Maybe it really is like Goblin said, that we're just living under the control of oligarchs and none of them are "the good guys".

There is no such thing as good guys or bad guys. We have all taken conflicting vows. Every choice or decision we take will both violate and uphold some right, promise, law, ideal or vow. By the way, there are no such things as rights. Rights are only what you can seize and hold on to.

 

[Rage Racer]

Here I must add that the referendum was done "under tank barrels".

Well, first, there were no tanks there, only trucks, BTRs and Tigr armored cars. Just a detail.
Second, I'd say not "under barrels", but "behind barrels". They ensured the safety of the referendum, so everyone could make their desicion without a threat from any extremists.
President election in Afghanistan was held "under barrels" of NATO soldiers, too, but Rasmussen called it a triumph of democracy.

And I've read that the results might have been faked.

Anyone can say that but nobody can prove it.
And even if they have, my friend from Kiev says "maybe not 97%, but at least 60% of Crimeans always wanted to join RF, I'm sure".

But then, nowadays so many sources are lying that I don't even know who to believe.

Agree that, I believe the media ONLY when thay have solid proofs, not just words.

However, I think that if a territory is part of a country, any other country shouldn't start a military intervention.

I have controversal feelings about this, too, but this intervention possibly prevented the bloodshed like is happening in Donbass and Odessa now. No, not even "possibly" - it would be even worse if the "polite people" didn't come.

 

[GTracer98]

There is no such thing as good guys or bad guys. We have all taken conflicting vows. Every choice or decision we take will both violate and uphold some right, promise, law, ideal or vow. By the way, there are no such things as rights. Rights are only what you can seize and hold on to.

Isn't that just saying "Nothing is true, everything is permitted'?

Basically, everything we've been taught to do is both right and wrong, depending on the surroundings? That's quite a heavy revelation for a 16 year old, I must say.

Well, first, there were no tanks there, only trucks, BTRs and Tigr armored cars. Just a detail.
Second, I'd say not "under barrels", but "behind barrels". They ensured the safety of the referendum, so everyone could make their desicion without a threat from any extremists.
President election in Afghanistan was held "under barrels" of NATO soldiers, too, but Rasmussen called it a triumph of democracy.

Still armed vehicles. I've understood that the US isn't the great democratic nation, yes. But I won't say that Russia is either.

In a true democratic world, we wouldn't need armies. However, that's probably just utopia, humans are to egoist by nature.

Anyone can say that but nobody can prove it.
And even if they have, my friend from Kiev says "maybe not 97%, but at least 60% of Crimeans always wanted to join RF, I'm sure".

Maybe, I really don't know about this. As I said, I can't find a 100% trust-worthy site to get the true figures.

I have controversal feelings about this, too, but this intervention possibly prevented the bloodshed like is happening in Donbass and Odessa now. No, not even "possibly" - it would be even worse if the "polite people" didn't come.

I'd say as long as corruption and greed are here on Earth, bloodshed and revolutions will continue to happen.

 

[Dotini]

Isn't that just saying "Nothing is true, everything is permitted'?

Basically, everything we've been taught to do is both right and wrong, depending on the surroundings? That's quite a heavy revelation for a 16 year old, I must say.

I would say nothing is completely true or completely false. Almost anything is possible.

I apologise if I've destroyed any of your cherished myths or fairy tales. Childhood must end.

 

[GTracer98]

I would say nothing is completely true or completely false. Almost anything is possible.

I apologise if I've destroyed any of your cherished myths or fairy tales. Childhood must end.

I know, I know, I'm entering the "real world". And because it is a very unfair place, I need some help from the more experienced people/adults.

The problem is that I always see adults that act like children, thinking that they are always right, not respecting others' opinions, and truly believing they live in a perfectly democratic US-dominated society.

And then I must make a choice: fall with them, or stand opposite.

 

[SMfan]

I don't think he's much of a true vatnik, more like a Sovietf*g.

Is there a difference?

There is nothing about democracy here, this is just a fight of two oligarch groups.

I wouldn't call it that - all of the biggest oligarchs are either pro-Kiev or somewhat neutral. It's more a war of the less-legal forces (although, like in all post-Soviet countries, oligarchs there ain't oo clean to begin with).

And those who won it now, they're tightening the nuts just more than Yanyk did.

We'll have to see about that. Not the best time to talk about it now.

And it's not even a real revolution (he explains why), just a coup d'etat.

Any revolution has its beneficiaries, whether "real" or not.

I have controversal feelings about this, too, but this intervention possibly prevented the bloodshed like is happening in Donbass and Odessa now. No, not even "possibly" - it would be even worse if the "polite people" didn't come.

If Crimeans decided to takeover buildings and have gunfights in the street, then yeah, the bloodshed was prevented. So, short-term - they got lucky.

President election in Afghanistan was held "under barrels" of NATO soldiers, too, but Rasmussen called it a triumph of democracy.

2 instances of bullcrap don't make a truth, do they? And obviously Crimea ain't Afghan, but lies are still lies.

 

[GTracer98]

What did the Orange Revolution accomplish, for example? People didn't like Yanukovich, called the election corrupt and started a "revolution". Then Yushchenko got elected and he made Ukraine's economy fall down.

So revolutions do quite a lot of bad to the country. Ukraine's history is full of "revolutions" which certainly isn't helping them.

If another revolution starts after May 25, who knows what will happen to Ukraine next.

 

[Rage Racer]

Now, about the massacre in Odessa. I heard it's almost not highlighted in the Western media.

The nationalists turned the trade union house into a furnace of Buchenwald, and now they're proud of it. Now tell me that they aren't Nazis.
There's no excuse for burning 40+ people alive. They were unarmed, even if they're "separatists" and "Russian agents" (without any proofs, but that doesn't matter now), they are PEOPLE, dammit. Killing them with fire is not cool. And nobody of the Western officials has condemned this!

The events in Donbass are terrible, too. The army, with support of the National Guard formed from nationalists, assaults Sloviansk and Kramatorsk again.

The DPR militia released the prisoned OSCE observers for their safety, Kiev still strikes. Civilian casualties reported. The radicals from so-called National Guard shoot without a warning. A medical vehicle was shot by a pro-Kiev force, killing 4 medical workers.
The USA and EU call it a "counter-terrorist operation", openly support it and prepares to impose new sanctions on Russia for not supporting it, lol.

I'd hate to look like a Putin's believer or a vatnik (@SMfan ), but the West supporting the acting Kiev authorities is responsible for this mess.

P.S. I feel like the south-east of Ukraine needs some Polite People, ASAP.

 

[GTracer98]

I understand you Rage Racer, you're doing the careful balancing act between the two sides, trying not to fall with either of them. Because in the end, none of them are the good guys, both sides are doing bad things.

Burning 40+ people is, as you said, an unexcusable crime. And the people who support that have no respect from me at all.

 

[Rage Racer]

Both sides are bad, but one is worse. The "Dark Side" (Putin's side) doesn't kill unarmed people, at least.

 

[SMfan]

Burning a building full of people cannot be excused, obviuosly. That was some horrible s**t. Also obvious is that not all pro-Ukraine/nationalist/Maidan dudes there supported the fact that they've murdered a bunch of people.

Novaya Gazeta (Russian newspaper known for its investigations and for how many of its journalists were killed for said investigations) reports that the football fans/united-Ukraine march was attacked by the separatists. Since they're one of very few legit sources of info, there's reason to believe it.

Agaaaain, not an excuse to burn people (don't wanna repeat it anymore, so I won't).

The reason why I (among many other people) singled out the police as the guilty side is that it's pretty hard to control yourself in a factual local war (within city limits). And being in such circumstances, (young) people went nuts. The worst things is, most likely, none of the people dead were the ones armed and/or ready to fight - those dudes either ran away as soon as things got dangerous or climbed to the roof, succesfully escaping the fire.

_____________________________

Yeah, European politicians not saying anything about the fire is f'ed up. I mean, they coulda said sumn like: "We support united Ukraine, but not really mass murder". Another example of "overall political course" prevailing over common sense.

_____________________________

The details abouth the ATO are so sketchy at this point, I wouldn't believe either side. Would be nice to have a couple camera crews there, but neither side seems to want the journos around.

_____________________________

I feel like there's a way to stop all of this and start an unarmed conversation. Basically the EU and the US tell Turchinov to stop the ATO, and Putin tells the separatists to put down their weapons.
But i'm not sure Putin and the West will be able to agree on anytnihg at this point.

 

[Rage Racer]

The Geneva agreement is just a paper useful only in a toilet.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

...One which you can face international tribunal for ignoring, but it is a sheet of paper...

 

[Rage Racer]

Nuff said, just watch. (disturbing content warning)

 

[Rage Racer]

...reports that the football fans/united-Ukraine march was attacked by the separatists.
...those dudes either ran away as soon as things got dangerous or climbed to the roof, succesfully escaping the fire.

There's some info came up, about the "attacking separatists" were provocateurs, wearing both George ribbons and red bands like Right Sector uses. Hmm...