Russian Invasion of Ukraine
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inCloud
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inCloud
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I still don't see how ****posting in foreign unaccessible social network is support. You can't commit treason by expressing your opinion. Its government task to convince their citizens that's it is invasion and not liberation.
That homeland is in danger and Ukrainian government is better than Russian puppets.
You can easily switch sides and somehow people that want this horrible war to stop becomes traitors of their homeland. Because Ukraine currently invading RF according to our new constitution(and even according to our old, because of Belgorod).
Government that oppressing freedom of speech and thought isn't worth saving.
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- eran0004
If you express support for the invasion then you support the invasion. It’s not rocket science.
Yes you can.
That’s not how it works, especially not in a democracy. In a democracy, any legitimate change of leadership comes through an election. There is no such thing as liberation through invasion by a foreign power. Liberation can only come in question if the leadership is tyrannic and the people have no means to free themselves. By expressing the support of an illegal and illegitimate invasion of your country you betray your loyalty to your country and your fellow citizens and that is treason.
If Russian citizens call for a Ukrainian invasion of Russia, then sure, legally they could be considered traitors. Morally though, it’s more complex, because the Russian regime doesn’t really have any legitimacy. You could argue that since the state betrayed its loyalty to the people first, the people have no moral obligation to stay loyal to the state.
Easy for you to say, your country does not face an existential threat through invasion, occupation and annexation by a foreign power.
inCloud
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You don't see difference between deed and through?
That's how it works when big chunk of "your" land isn't under your control and you want to get it back. Ukraine doesn't have army to occupy Donetsk if people of Donetsk wouldn't be happy to see them.
Exactly the same could be stated about Ukrainian government. In both cases people were betrayed by corrupted government.
You ****ing kidding me? I live in tyranny since 2011. First thing they take from you is freedom of speech. If you give that - then you doomed.
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- eran0004
Putin’s illegal invasion and occupation of Ukraine is facilitated by people who express support of it. Thus, expressing such support during the invasion contributes to the harm, and if you have Ukrainian citizenship that means that you have betrayed your loyalty to your country.
No that’s not how it works, because the “it” we’re discussing is treason, not how to successfully return the occupied areas to Ukraine.
How did the Ukrainian government betray their people?
There’s no such thing as absolute freedom of speech. Speech that causes harm is often sanctioned in law. You’ve got to look at how these restrictions are justified and what impact it has on the various rights and liberties of the individual citizens. It’s a balance.
inCloud
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Its impossible to calculate how verbal support really matters. Punishment should be adequate to harm that action doing to society. This means that any form of punishment for that is despotism of current regime.
We are discussing current situation, there isn't another similar situation in the world currently and all similar cases in the past were too long ago to be relevant.
My point is that Ukraine should be tolerant to its citizens unless they doing some real harm. Otherwise, its citizens could rightfully choose another side. Its Ukraine government was incompetent and corrupt enough to be not prepared for invasion in 2014 and 2022.
US law is quite close to it.
Joey D
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inCloud
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Joey D
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Even at a federal level, you can't say what you want. Hate speech, for example, is criminalized in certain conditions. There are also libel and slander laws, along with false advertising laws. We have obscenity laws and laws regarding pornography too. You can see an overview of what isn't protected speech here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions and incidents here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States
Joey D
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In some cases yes, but not all. No freedoms are being violated under broadcast laws, but they still exist, and you can't say whatever you want on the TV or radio. Obscenity and pornography laws work similarly. At the state level, there are far more laws that limit speech, which can't be dismissed either.
So no, the US is not a bastion of free speech like you claim. There are several instances where it's not the case. We have it better than many other countries, but we're not the freest by any means. The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, which maintains a database to track this sort of thing, puts Denmark first.
McLaren
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Because some groups in this country aren't afforded those human rights, equally.
Recall this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Now skip to this part in history:
Civil rights movement - Wikipedia
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- eran0004
Sure, it’s impossible to calculate exactly what effect this woman’s support had. It’s clear however that without public support, Putin would not be able to wage this war, so anyone who supports it share some of the culpability. Personally I think it’s quite fitting to confiscate her property, since she called for other citizens to lose theirs.
We are, but we are specifically discussing whether expression of support for an invasion by a foreign power should be considered a crime. In that matter, the government does not have any responsibility to try to “win over” its citizens through public debate, instead the principle is that the citizens have a duty of loyalty towards the state.
No they can’t. That goes against the constitution. The legislative and executive powers stem from the people, you cannot overrule that by the use of violence and foreign military power.
Incompetence is not betrayal. Corruption may be, but how did corruption play a part in these events, to the extent that the citizens may rightfully abandon their duty of loyalty towards the state and towards each other?
inCloud
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I think that if you didn't choose your government , you don't have duty to be loyal to it. Everyone should have right for peaceful civil protest in any situation. Keep in mind that Russian speaking minority doesn't have representation in Rada anymore and presidential election was postponed.
Ukrainian constitution doesn't work in regions under control of RF. Its double edged - if Ukraine can't provide constitutional rights, Ukrainian citizens shouldn't have duty to obey to main law.
Ask yourself, how RUAF pass through land bridge of north Crimea and Dnipro river in one day. How it was possible if Ukraine was aware of invasion and already have occupied Crimea, but russian marines tried to invade Mikolaev at day one.
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Why didn’t this woman choose her government?
Not if it’s treason.
Source for this claim? Zelensky himself belongs to the Russian speaking minority. And of course the elections were postponed - they are in the middle of an invasion.
Nonsense. The constitution applies to the whole country without exception. Don’t confuse that fact that it can’t be enforced in the occupied areas with the idea that those citizens are no longer bound by it.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say by this. Please explain your point instead of asking me to ask myself.
inCloud
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