Save the Manuals!

[Wolfe]

If you need to drive stick to be entertained and interested while driving, hand over your keys you're a terrible driver. There is a lot to do while driving that has nothing to do with your car and everything to do with every single car around you and the conditions you're driving in. If you can't get interested in driving unless you're driving a stick, you're not a car enthusiast, you're a bad driver.

I don't think driving in traffic is entertaining nor interesting on its own. For me, driving stick is the only thing that lends any enjoyment to that; it even makes completely sub-limit speeds in an asthmatic econobox fun. Obviously I'll pay attention regardless of what kind of transmission drives the wheels, but with an automatic it's more of a chore.

As for driving conditions, the last thing I want (personally) in any questionable/slick road conditions is a transmission that metes power to the wheels on its own terms. A manual enables me to have a better sense of what's going on where the drivewheels meet the road.

It's not driving, it's operating a transmission. It's a thing you're used to doing while driving, that doesn't make it driving.

What's "driving," then? My point is that you already invest a certain amount of effort/attention into the task -- until they finish developing self-driving cars, we all have to -- and for me operating a manual transmission folds neatly into that quota of effort/attention, with room to spare. In my mental bubble that encapsulates "driving," operating the clutch and gear shifter don't even come close to the outer edge.

Occasionally I'm a bit too tired/lazy for the whole process, but you know what? When I feel that way, I don't think I should be driving at all. Driving while tired can be like driving drunk. I've done it with both types of transmissions, and in my experience an automatic multiplies the likelihood of nodding off behind the wheel, unless you're on a long highway trip where there's no appreciable difference.

Manuals are not good for commuting - pointless body movements that are easily automated. For commuting an automatic wins. Manuals are not good for sports driving - ridiculous dancing around to control RPMs and botched shifts because of said dancing. For sports driving a DCT wins. Since DCT can do both of the above, DCT wins altogether.

Since when is commuting required to be as automated as possible? We haven't reached the point of mandating AI cars yet. And who says sports driving is solely predicated on the results of your driving, rather than the act of driving itself?

DCT wins on the track, but there are no laptimes on the road. There's no such thing as an objectively superior transmission for a sunday drive.

Honestly I'm starting to think that manual fanatics actually hate driving...

Just because you can't perform while wearing seven condoms, that doesn't mean you don't enjoy sex.

For some, automatic is "normal" and manual adds to the experience (for better or worse). For others, manual is "normal" and automatic subtracts from the experience. It's a matter of perspective. For me personally, automatic is mind-numbingly dull in traffic and intrusive on rural roads. Whether or not the transmission shifts itself is not a trivial thing.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

DCT fans are trying to win an emotion-based argument with logic. Typical, really.

I don't think manual transmissions have much of a future. I'm glad there are so many truly great classics equipped with manuals to choose from.

 

[Danoff]

I don't think driving in traffic is entertaining nor interesting on its own.

Ok, so you don't like driving.

For me, driving stick is the only thing that lends any enjoyment to that; it even makes completely sub-limit speeds in an asthmatic econobox fun.

No seriously, you really may not like driving.

What's "driving," then?

Directly controlling the acceleration of the vehicle in each direction (front back side/side). There are indirect ways to control acceleration - like shifting gears so that engine RPM changes causing engine braking, or changing your fuel/air mixture so that the engine performance changes - but really what you're doing is gaming a system that was designed poorly to start with. Slow, fast, left, right, those are driving. They apply to all types of vehicles (golf carts for example), and even aircraft (which have more directions you can control). Whether you're driving a surf board, a snowboard, or a bicycle, the act of driving is the same - direct control of the acceleration of the vehicle. Putting up sails on a sailboat is not driving. Pulling the sheet rope in (accelerator) is driving, adjusting the rudder is driving, raising the spinnaker is manipulating the hardware on the boat.

In my mental bubble that encapsulates "driving," operating the clutch and gear shifter don't even come close to the outer edge.

That's because you haven't distilled driving down to what it really is. You're defining driving as all of the tasks you normally do while operating a motor vehicle (minus the entertainment and safety systems). I'm defining driving as controlling the path of any vehicle through space.

Speaking of space, I drive a spacecraft for a living - and it doesn't require heel-toe. I don't even touch the controls.

I've done it with both types of transmissions, and in my experience an automatic multiplies the likelihood of nodding off behind the wheel, unless you're on a long highway trip where there's no appreciable difference.

Sounds to me like you don't like driving.

Just because you can't perform while wearing seven condoms, that doesn't mean you don't enjoy sex.

Quote of the year.

But it's not analogous to the conversation. More analogous would be to say that you're claiming that sex is only fun with the lights on. You get bored when you do it in the dark. You then claim that having the lights on is required for real sex. I'm saying that sex is sex, and that having the lights on or not is operating a light switch - not sex.

 

[Wolfe]

You're defining driving as all of the tasks you normally do while operating a motor vehicle (minus the entertainment and safety systems). I'm defining driving as controlling the path of any vehicle through space.

Well we can toss that bit of the conversation in the recycling bin, then. Thank you for establishing the semantics in a timely manner.

Actually I think we went over that one when I last spoke with you on this subject several years ago, but of course I didn't remember.

Sounds to me like you don't like driving.

There's a difference between not enjoying motion through space and finding it incredibly frustrating and obtrusive to move through space in a machine equipped with a integral component that not only has a mind of its own, but also removes feedback and precision that I value.

Note that I've never disparaged DCTs. I don't find them as satisfying as a 3-pedal manual, but they don't impact driving (your definition) in a profoundly negative way. C'mon man -- I'm here because I enjoy driving/racing videogames. Driving (your definition) is the only sensation of operating a car that a videogame can simulate, particularly with a controller.

I'll even sometimes pick automatic in videogames, because 99.9% of the time it operates like a DCT in "auto" mode with unintrusive, extremely race-oriented shift programming.

Quote of the year.

But it's not analogous to the conversation. More analogous would be to say that you're claiming that sex is only fun with the lights on. You get bored when you do it in the dark. You then claim that having the lights on is required for real sex. I'm saying that sex is sex, and that having the lights on or not is operating a light switch - not sex.

I never claimed that, uh, having the lights on is required for "real" sex. I don't look down on automatic drivers, although I think they exaggerate how "difficult" manual is.

My analogy was appropriate to describe my viewpoint. To fit it to your analogy, we'd need the condoms AND a third person flicking the lights on/off whenever they feel it's appropriate.

 

[justchyllan]

Driving a manual, I think, is more enjoyable. You know your car better, it becomes an extension of you. I think DCTs have left the fun out of driving to reduce gear changes by a miniscule amount of time. I have a dog box trans in my Evo, so it doesn't require the clutch to change gears, because they are straight cut gears, but I still have a clutch. It's just more fun. My dad is running an air shifted dog box in his NSX so its similar to a sequential trans but you still have a clutch.

Anything with a manually operated clutch is more fun, its a more engaged driving experience.

On a side note, when did GTP and Forzaplanet merge forums? This is the first time in a while I've had some time to hop on here, my first week under 60 hours at work.

 

[Ken]

Driving a manual, I think, is more enjoyable. You know your car better, it becomes an extension of you.
Anything with a manually operated clutch is more fun, its a more engaged driving experience.

Preach on brother, preach on.

 

[Joey D]

I don't look down on automatic drivers, although I think they exaggerate how "difficult" manual is.

On the same token I think manual drivers exaggerate how boring automatics are and how much control they have over their manual equipped cars. I mean if I gave you the keys to an automatic Ferrari with a license to hoon as you will, do you really think you wouldn't be able to have fun? I don't think any automotive enthusiast would find that boring.

I guess my point is a fun car, is a fun car regardless of if you have to press an pedal and waggle a stick or not.

I think DCTs have left the fun out of driving to reduce gear changes by a miniscule amount of time.
.

I driven a manual version if my car under the same conditions and it's no more fun than my double clutch one.

See the comment above: a fun car will always be a fun car. You might enjoy it slightly more with a different transmission but a transmission is only a small part of the overall driving experience.

 

[justchyllan]

I mean if I gave you the keys to an automatic Ferrari with a license to hoon as you will, do you really think you wouldn't be able to have fun? I don't think any automotive enthusiast would find that boring.


I guess my point is a fun car, is a fun car regardless of if you have to press an pedal and waggle a stick or not.

Theoretically, yes I would enjoy the Ferrari... But while in theoretical situations, I would choose a manual supercar over a DCT Ferrari.

It's not just the pushing the clutch and changing gear, it's the technique, double clutching, heel-toe rev-matching fun that CAN NOT be done in an auto. So many tricks that can be don't with a manual.

I think the point is that we are loosing the pedigree. Technology is taking over.

 

[ShobThaBob]

They're not tricks, they're just thing you previously had to do in order to operate it well. It sometimes saved a few tenths here and there on a laptime. Now it's not necessary. That's good, it lets you focus more on driving the vehicle.

 

[Danoff]

They're not tricks, they're just thing you previously had to do in order to operate it well. It sometimes saved a few tenths here and there on a laptime. Now it's not necessary. That's good, it lets you focus more on driving the vehicle.

👍👍

 

[Joey D]

Theoretically, yes I would enjoy the Ferrari... But while in theoretical situations, I would choose a manual supercar over a DCT Ferrari.

It's not just the pushing the clutch and changing gear, it's the technique, double clutching, heel-toe rev-matching fun that CAN NOT be done in an auto. So many tricks that can be don't with a manual.

I think the point is that we are loosing the pedigree. Technology is taking over.

My point with the situation was that when someone suggests that automatics can't be fun they are being ridiculous because no automotive enthusiast in their right mind would give up the chance to hoon an Italian supercar that they have no obligation to.

And there is nothing wrong with technology taking over. Technology is a good thing and it should take over because it makes things objectively better. There's nothing wrong with preferring or enjoying antiquated things though, there are many people who prefer vinyl records to MP3's or SNES to the PS3.

 

[justchyllan]

They're not tricks, they're just thing you previously had to do in order to operate it well. It sometimes saved a few tenths here and there on a laptime. Now it's not necessary. That's good, it lets you focus more on driving the vehicle.

In a professional racing environment, yes its good to focus more on driving, but I'd bet 95% of people aren't concerned about shaving hundredths of a second off their lap time.

 

[Wolfe]

On a side note, when did GTP and Forzaplanet merge forums? This is the first time in a while I've had some time to hop on here, my first week under 60 hours at work.

Week and a half ago. I'm glad you're still hovering around.

On the same token I think manual drivers exaggerate how boring automatics are and how much control they have over their manual equipped cars. I mean if I gave you the keys to an automatic Ferrari with a license to hoon as you will, do you really think you wouldn't be able to have fun? I don't think any automotive enthusiast would find that boring.

Not boring, but absolutely bittersweet, believe me. Almost eight years ago I posted a thread here regarding my trip to the Nordschleife that summer. We took a rental car, and while I assumed it would be manual simply because it's Europe, we got an automatic instead. I don't regret in the slightest that it was a chunky 525ti wagon, and I relish having had the experience, but to this day I wish I had been able to do my laps in a manual.

Wait, do they even make torque-converter Ferraris? I don't consider an SMG/DCT "automatic"; I reserve that term for slushboxes, including manumatics. Still, I'm not a fan of all the high-end sportscars going that route with no 3-pedal option. Ferrari with an SMG/DCT would be fun and a half, but give me a proper manual if you can, please.

Anyway, as I phrased it in a post above, I find automatic mind-numbingly dull in traffic. Way, way too uninvolved. But it's not simply boring all the time. Other times it's teasingly disconnected, unsettlingly vague, plain annoying, or plain frustrating. In an otherwise fun car, those are tragic qualities. But that's a slushbox. A DCT is just a videogame on wheels, a bit "meh" not having control of the clutch myself, but I could live with it.

There's nothing wrong with preferring or enjoying antiquated things though, there are many people who prefer vinyl records to MP3's or SNES to the PS3.

Using the term "antiquated" implies obsolescence or a desire for such. We're not there yet, and it comes across as antagonistic.

 

[justchyllan]

My point with the situation was that when someone suggests that automatics can't be fun they are being ridiculous because no automotive enthusiast in their right mind would give up the chance to hoon an Italian supercar that they have no obligation to.

And there is nothing wrong with technology taking over. Technology is a good thing and it should take over because it makes things objectively better. There's nothing wrong with preferring or enjoying antiquated things though, there are many people who prefer vinyl records to MP3's or SNES to the PS3.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to say I hate automatic transmissions, I prefer manual. I feel that in the average situations most of us are in they are MORE fun, not that every DCT/Auto is boring.

I think its a good initiative to save manuals.

 

[Joey D]

Wait, do they even make torque-converter Ferraris? I don't consider an SMG/DCT "automatic"; I reserve that term for slushboxes, including manumatics. Still, I'm not a fan of all the high-end sportscars going that route with no 3-pedal option. Ferrari with an SMG/DCT would be fun and a half, but give me a proper manual if you can, please.

It's hard to tell what people consider automatic or manual, I just assume most people in this thread think anything where you're not pushing a pedal and waggling a stick to be an automatic.

As for supercars doing away with manuals, it has to do with the people who are actually putting up the money for one. If the buyers were demanding a manual, you'd better believe these companies would be making one because I can't imagine the market for supercars is terribly large when compared to your basic sedan. Also most supercars sell cars based on performance and if they can do something to have a minute edge over the competition they will.

Anyway, as I phrased it in a post above, I find automatic mind-numbingly dull in traffic. Way, way too uninvolved. But it's not simply boring all the time. Other times it's teasingly disconnected, unsettlingly vague, plain annoying, or plain frustrating. In an otherwise fun car, those are tragic qualities.

Everything is mind-numbingly dull in traffic. You could have the most fun car in the world but if you're creeping along for many miles on a crowded street, you might as well be in one of those 90's Korean cars that were terrible in every sense of the word.

But really I don't think I've ever had a fun car spoiled by a transmission. I've drive automatic Corvettes that I had a blast with and don't think the experience would have really be any different with a manual. My MINI was an automatic and I always had fun with that. I suppose fun is what you make of it though, and if you're going to give me a car with a good chassis, adequate power and some sticky rubber I'm not even going to care about what's moving some gears in a box.

Using the term "antiquated" implies obsolescence or a desire for such. We're not there yet, and it comes across as antagonistic.

I don't really know what else to call them besides antiquated. It's outdated technology that has been replaced by something that's better. The only other word I could think of was "pointless" and I can assure you I don't think manuals are pointless at all, in a relatively cheap track car or really any economy car made back when they had awful 4 or less speed autos that didn't know what a gear change was, they make a ton of sense. If my Neon could handle an automatic, and it wouldn't because it would tear it to pieces, it would be pretty awful. Granted it's not that great as a manual either, but that has more to do with how the transmission is a cobbled together mess of Caravan, Neon, Stratus and PT Cruiser parts.

I think its a good initiative to save manuals.

The only way to save manuals is to buy brand new manual cars, which isn't happening because manual demanding enthusiasts typically buy used cars. So while saving the manual is a good idea in theory to some extent, it's a lost cause.

 

[justchyllan]

As for supercars doing away with manuals, it has to do with the people who are actually putting up the money for one. If the buyers were demanding a manual, you'd better believe these companies would be making one because I can't imagine the market for supercars is terribly large when compared to your basic sedan. Also most supercars sell cars based on performance and if they can do something to have a minute edge over the competition they will.

The majority of the people with the money to buy these cars are old men who are afraid they might stall and embarrass themselves in front of their girlfriend who happens to be 20 years younger than them. That's why they want SMG/DCT.

The only way to save manuals is to buy brand new manual cars, which isn't happening because manual demanding enthusiasts typically buy used cars. So while saving the manual is a good idea in theory to some extent, it's a lost cause.

I'm afraid you're taking it too literally. I don't plan to rebel against car manufacturers. I think if anything its a nostalgia motive.

 

[Wolfe]

Everything is mind-numbingly dull in traffic...

...I suppose fun is what you make of it though...

Every manual car I've driven is fun in traffic, including that '84 Renault I had briefly in 2007. You're right about heavy traffic, but apart from that, manual transmission makes every single drive a joy, even if I never exceed 40mph or see a proper curve. Doing something as simple as going to the grocery store to pick up a loaf of bread and a jug of milk, do you find the drive satisfying and engaging? Every time? I do. It's great. I would never have it any other way. I can't stress it enough; it's supremely easy, and supremely enjoyable. There's not a single objective advantage to automatic/DCT that could win me over.

Amputate my left leg and I'd consider rigging up an alternative mechanism for the clutch before going out and buying a DCT. That's not an exaggeration.

I don't really know what else to call them besides antiquated. It's outdated technology that has been replaced by something that's better. The only other word I could think of was "pointless" and I can assure you I don't think manuals are pointless at all...

Older? I wouldn't call it outdated nor replaced. Some manufacturers are jumping ship, yes. Meanwhile, others are holding steady with thousands of manual-equipped cars already out there and easy to find. That's one reason I've fallen for Subaru in the time I was absent from this forum. Manuals everywhere!

I still like BMWs, but Subaru has their priorities in much better order IMO. The 2013 Forester XT is 100lbs. lighter than a 2013 Z4 sDrive35is, which succinctly demonstrates my point.

The only way to save manuals is to buy brand new manual cars, which isn't happening because manual demanding enthusiasts typically buy used cars. So while saving the manual is a good idea in theory to some extent, it's a lost cause.

One other thing about Subaru -- they seem to be driven by plenty of people who may not be automotive enthusiasts, but are still "drivers" who care about the task. It's not easy to explain or quantify, just something I've noticed. Like you've said, a manufacturer won't build manual cars unless they can sell 'em. Subaru apparently sells 'em, and with a car like the BRZ catching on, I have high hopes for the future.

 

[McLaren]

DCT fans are trying to win an emotion-based argument with logic. Typical, really.

I don't think manual transmissions have much of a future. I'm glad there are so many truly great classics equipped with manuals to choose from.

The argument of which is better; manual vs automatic is emotion-based?

Sounds like an excuse for manual owners that know the real answer.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The argument manual v. automatic v. DCT is emotion based. Certain people feel a nicer emotion when driving a manual, and others don't. And that's okay. It's like arguing whether to have a Ferrari F40 or Ferrari 458. There's no logical reason to have the F40, but some of us would do it anyway.

 

[Wolfe]

You need to define the context first. I think there's no "objectively better" choice for the average daily-driven street car -- what is there to contest? It comes down to what the driver wants.

Automatic has some clear advantages for towing and 4x4ing. Semi trucks have manuals to handle the torque and weight loads with sturdy simplicity. SMGs shift lightning-quick and are well-suited to racecars. Modified automatics rule the dragstrip. Manuals could be considered objectively superior in a number of older street cars that had substantially crappy automatics. Motorcycles function well with SMGs.

Everybody wins!

 

[MatskiMonk]

It's not just the pushing the clutch and changing gear, it's the technique, double clutching, heel-toe rev-matching fun that CAN NOT be done in an auto. So many tricks that can be don't with a manual.

I miss left foot braking when driving a manual, given that once you've gotten used to driving an auto you know instinctively when it's going to change gear, and you can always force it to change gear using the kick-down, there are techniques to be learned/exploited when driving an Auto.

On my 328i, a sudden stab of the accelerator pedal would knock the gear box down a gear, just come back off the power slightly before even waiting for a reaction from the car and the engine itself wouldn't really respond fast enough to de-stabilize the car - then since you know that the cars dropping a gear you ease/mash back on the power to take advantage of now being in a lower gear.... I called it double-tapping - although as far as your right foot is concerned it's the same action as though you were blipping the throttle on a down-shift under acceleration in a manual. Combine that action (which took about a second), with the fact that you complete that action whilst you're coming off the brake with you left foot - and it's not that much slower than coming off the brake and getting on the accelerator with your right foot and doing the clutch thing with your left foot. I know this ignores the advantages of H & T, but lets be honest, H & T more hassle than it's worth if the pedal layout and shoesize isn't suitable.

The biggest drawback with that is it doesn't work so well if you're trying to initiate a downshift at the bottom of a dip, ready for the uphill gradient, then you just have to rely on kickdown operating normally.

.. or of course, you can just slide the lever from D to 2 (for instance)... though this means not having both your hands on the wheel, which offers less control if you are expecting to have to welly in with steering corrections during the corner.

Anyway, I'm just rambling now, my point is that you can have more interaction with an auto box than just sitting there waiting to see what it does.

 

[Joey D]

Every manual car I've driven is fun in traffic, including that '84 Renault I had briefly in 2007. You're right about heavy traffic, but apart from that, manual transmission makes every single drive a joy, even if I never exceed 40mph or see a proper curve. Doing something as simple as going to the grocery store to pick up a loaf of bread and a jug of milk, do you find the drive satisfying and engaging? Every time? I do. It's great. I would never have it any other way. I can't stress it enough; it's supremely easy, and supremely enjoyable. There's not a single objective advantage to automatic/DCT that could win me over.

I don't think driving a manual is difficult at all, I learned in a parking lot in about 20 minutes and got to where I was decent enough on the road in a couple days. Even in traffic driving a manual isn't hard, but I find it to be vaguely annoying. Maybe our idea of traffic differs, but the traffic I used to sit in prior to moving out to farm land was bumper to bumper for miles and miles and you never really got going faster than maybe 10mph at any given time. Being at a stand still on the highway isn't fun.

Driving down to the store isn't a joy no matter what I'm driving, it's simply a 4 mile trip with one left and two rights. Going to work is just a 2 mile commute with one traffic light. I only find enjoyment in driving when I'm either just doing it for the sake of it with no real place to go, or going on a road trip. Changing the transmission in my car wouldn't make any situation any different for me either. If I had a manual, driving to work would still just be a commute and going for a drive would just be going for a drive, the only difference is I'd be waggling a stick.

Older? I wouldn't call it outdated nor replaced. Some manufacturers are jumping ship, yes. Meanwhile, others are holding steady with thousands of manual-equipped cars already out there and easy to find. That's one reason I've fallen for Subaru in the time I was absent from this forum. Manuals everywhere!

Manuals have been outdated ever since the double-clutch started making it's way into standard, everyday cars and they were on the verge of being outdated when traditional automatics started having 5 and 6 speeds. There are still plenty of outdated things still in use too, I even use outdated things daily, so don't think I'm suggesting all cars with them are bad. There's just a better way of doing it now and I think manufactures see that and will move towards it eventually. It does take time to start replacing things.

And for those who still want manuals, the used market will still be full of them and as I've mentioned before, most enthusiast go there to begin with anyway.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I personally reckon it depends on the vehicles in question. Anything Subaru I would buy with a manual transmission mostly because their automatics except maybe the Lineartronic of late are rubbish even by torque-converter auto standards, but for the potential replacement of my WRX, an FPV F6, it'll be the ZF 6-speed automatic rather than the Tremec 6-speed manual. Quicker, throttle blips a hell of a lot better than I ever could, and it suits the nature of the vehicle.

Technically that could be classed as saying I have no preference in transmission but I do prefer the feel of a great manual transmission, operative word being great.

 

[McLaren]

The only way to save manuals is to buy brand new manual cars, which isn't happening because manual demanding enthusiasts typically buy used cars. So while saving the manual is a good idea in theory to some extent, it's a lost cause.

I think there's also the fact most of these demanding enthusiasts are wanting the continuation of manuals in cars they can't even really afford to begin with (probably supporting your theory that they buy used cars).

I'm amazed Porsche & Ferrari even listened to people as long as they did & offered a manual option despite virtually none of those people actually following through.

 

[Ranman20]

.

Question. Do you drive a Mclaren MP4-12C? Your name has me thinking for awhile he/she must drive a Mclaren. And is it Manual if so?

 

[McLaren]

Question. Do you drive a Mclaren MP4-12C? Your name has me thinking for awhile he/she must drive a Mclaren. And is it Manual if so?

If I had a MP4-12C, most people on this forum would be well aware of it. They only come in a 7-speed DCT....

 

[Wolfe]

I don't think driving a manual is difficult at all, I learned in a parking lot in about 20 minutes and got to where I was decent enough on the road in a couple days. Even in traffic driving a manual isn't hard, but I find it to be vaguely annoying. Maybe our idea of traffic differs, but the traffic I used to sit in prior to moving out to farm land was bumper to bumper for miles and miles and you never really got going faster than maybe 10mph at any given time. Being at a stand still on the highway isn't fun.

I was summarizing my take on the topic, "manual is easy" wasn't directed at you specifically.

There's "heavy traffic", as you've described, and "traffic", which I consider anything from "dense but moving," to "not alone on the road." In my hometown of ~250,000, "traffic" is about all you get, but interstate trips have exposed me to enough "heavy traffic" situations. I haven't lived with it daily, but as I told niky, I wouldn't tolerate that in any car. I agree, being at a stand still on the highway isn't fun.

Driving down to the store isn't a joy no matter what I'm driving, it's simply a 4 mile trip with one left and two rights. Going to work is just a 2 mile commute with one traffic light. I only find enjoyment in driving when I'm either just doing it for the sake of it with no real place to go, or going on a road trip. Changing the transmission in my car wouldn't make any situation any different for me either. If I had a manual, driving to work would still just be a commute and going for a drive would just be going for a drive, the only difference is I'd be waggling a stick.

I guess that's the difference between us. Not sure what else to say at this point. Manual is irreplaceable for me because I enjoy it all the time. DCT just wouldn't be the same.

On your "waggling a stick" comment, I believe manual is all about the clutch action, not simply picking a gear. If picking a gear was all I wanted I'd drive a DCT. I'd also have to make way more money than I do now...I'm a member of that "poor manual drivers" category.

...my point is that you can have more interaction with an auto box than just sitting there waiting to see what it does.

I'd rather just do the gearchange than "ask" the gearbox for one, personally, but it's certainly true that you hold a degree of control that way.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The argument of which is better; manual vs automatic is emotion-based?

Sounds like an excuse for manual owners that know the real answer.

The real answer is obvious. It's the argument that is in question. Progress is progress, and all things become obsolete in time. It's human nature to be nostalgic about some things, and manual gearboxes is, quite obviously, one of these.

I don't really think any proponent of manual gearboxes can put forth a sound, logical, argument with a long list of advantages for the manual trans, but the simple truth is that a considerable amount of people still prefer them. Including myself.

It's the whole romance of the relationship of man and machine. The romance of objecthood. Read some Tom Robbins sometime. It's not that the DCT completely destroys this relationship, but it moves one step closer to that goal.

In the end, it's simply the romantic vs the analytic. Neither side will ever, ever concede defeat, and neither side will ever agree. It is completely inane to argue with somebody with a completely different fundamental psychology, but yet, here we are.

 

[homeforsummer]

it even makes completely sub-limit speeds in an asthmatic econobox fun.

This I agree with.

At the moment, tiny-engined econoboxes are one vehicle that are certainly better off as traditional manuals, for several reasons.

Cost is one. You have maybe five transmission choices: Manual, single-clutch auto, dual-clutch auto, torque converter auto, and CVT auto. DCT and torque converters are too expensive for truly cheap cars - if you're buying a car for, let's say, $9,000 brand new, then an extra $1k for a torque converter or $2k+ for a DCT is nonsensical.

CVT is no good either. I quite like CVTs, but in a small, underpowered car you get the transmission's worst characteristics, rather than its best. To get anywhere at reasonable pace, it'll be making lots of noise. Also, still relatively expensive.

Single-clutch auto should be good - they're barely more complex or heavy than a regular manual (in the region of 15 lb in the Volkswagen Up, for example). But they're also expensive (despite lack of complexity - I'm guessing high markup), and generally, they're crap. Not as smooth as any other proper auto, nor as quick as a proper manual.

In a small, lower-powered car, a traditional manual is the only real way to make the most of both performance and economy.

At least until DCTs get cheaper.

The stupid thing is, automatics should be ideal for small cars - particularly in Europe. Small cars are designed for shorter, usually city-bound, trafficked journey. I.e. a place where autos make lots of sense.

 

[phil bell]

I too agree. A Toyota Vios with a stick is alot nicer than the auto.