Save the Manuals!

[homeforsummer]

Heavy traffic is not an excuse either; rapid repetitive "stop and creep" is a pointless bad habit that everyone should break.

That's not always possible. If I'm in low-speed traffic, I tend to leave enough of a gap that at a very least, I can keep the car rolling along on tickover. But with the best intentions in the world you cannot account for the ripple effect of braking all the time, and if the traffic around you is starting and stopping every few feet you can't do anything but do the same.

Even then, that's just one traffic situation. I don't know about where you live, but any heavily-trafficked city in the UK can involve frequent starts and stops, between sets of lights for example.

I'm lucky enough to live somewhere where I can choose a transmission on my own preferences - which so far has been manual for every car I owned. But if I lived in London, there's no way on earth I'd daily drive a manual vehicle, and that's solely down to traffic.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Not wanting to do extra work to drive is a perfectly good reason to not want to drive a manual. Some of us have better things to be doing with our time than shifting and using an extra foot to drive. It's not effortless at all. It takes loads more work than driving an automatic. To imply otherwise is ignorant and silly. Don't be ignorant and silly. Be reasonable and intelligent.

 

[niky]

I don't consider myself a limp-wristed wimp. Over the last two or three media tests, I have specifically asked that I be given a manual transmission vehicle.

This is because: A.) I love to shift, and there's a visceral feeling you get doing it with a good stick that you can't get with flappy paddles and B.) I test for fuel economy, and it's much easier to do it in traffic with a manual.

But local traffic... well... I'm currently driving a 1.6 liter Lancer. 1.6, in a car that comes with anything from 155 to 200 horses. I had to drive to our branch in another city. I was in stop-and-go traffic where I averaged a measly 4 mph and got a ridiculous 15 mpg. Out of a 1.6. Sweetest and lightest clutch you could imagine, but after a day in traffic, the heat build-up makes the biting point of the clutch move around and the gearbox starts getting crunchy.

I can cope, but a few years back, I had to drive there every day. Two hours going, two hours back, Crawling at just four miles an hour in a car with a ridiculously heavy clutch and a lopey idle. Thanks to the arthritis in my knees (genetic), I'd be laid up in bed writhing in pain at the end of the week.

I know a local enthusiast (guy specializes in dong B6T swaps into Festivas) who had to swap an auto into his turbo Festiva because he no longer had the strength in his left leg to use a clutch.

Heavy traffic isn't an excuse? That's like me telling my wife her inability to carry a hundred pounds of luggage up the stairs isn't an excuse for not doing it all in one go.

In the end, my feelings about the issue go like this: Should poeple learn how to swim without a floatation device? Absolutely. Should you force them to not use one? Absolutely not.

 

[CSLACR]

I think I've come to grips with this now.
Basically, the more involved in your driving you are, whether by choice or otherwise, the more you might like a manual.
Clumsy and too difficult for the average driver, this increased difficulty is required by some of us to stay entertained and interested in driving.

You could even even argue it's harder to be distracted with a manual because it becomes too difficult to insert your head squarely into your rectum (cell phone) without crashing.

If we are talking about an attentive driver, they're still more attentove with manual. You have to.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think I've come to grips with this now.
Basically, the more involved in your driving you are, whether by choice or otherwise, the more you might like a manual.
Clumsy and too difficult for the average driver, this increased difficulty is required by some of us to stay entertained and interested in driving.

You could even even argue it's harder to be distracted with a manual because it becomes too difficult to insert your head squarely into your rectum (cell phone) without crashing.

If we are talking about an attentive driver, they're still more attentove with manual. You have to.

Except that none of that is really the case (and has already been discussed ad nauseum), apart from perhaps the assumption that if you're interested in driving, you may be more likely to like manual transmissions. Even then, as Joey and Danoff would attest, it's perfectly possible to be a proper driving enthusiast and prefer autos.

"Clumsy and too difficult for the average driver" is rubbish, because the "average" driver in most countries outside the U.S. learns to drive stick as a matter of course, and most get along just fine. Unless you're on a qualifying lap driving a manual really isn't difficult in the slightest. Trying to suggest it is seems no more than a slightly big-headed way of professing your skills over others.

And I don't think attentiveness has anything to do with it either. Is it more difficult to cruise along the freeway with a phone stuck to your head and a vat of coffee between your legs in top gear in a manual, or top gear in an auto? Or do you think both are pretty much the same?

It might change at lower speeds in city driving but all that proves is that the average inattentive moron driver will be slightly worse at being an inattentive moron driver in a manual than they are in an auto - it doesn't mean that manual drivers are more attentive than automatic drivers.

A manual won't make an inattentive driver less inattentive through the extra concentration required. It'll just make them even worse at driving.

 

[Wolfe]

^ Agreed on the above post.

That's not always possible...

True, but I'm sure you'd agree inching up every single time is just asking for it. It doesn't accomplish anything.

It's not effortless at all...

It is for me. I feel confident that I can say the same for a number of other manual drivers, and I went no further than that: "For us, driving a manual is...effortless." I don't think about clutching or shifting, I just do it, like braking or steering. It's just driving, nothing more. My point was that you're unlikely to get sympathy from practiced manual drivers, not that manual is inherently totally effortless. Sorry.

On the subject of having "better things to do" while driving, I do all the same (bad) distracted-driving things as everyone else, plus more. For my job I shuffle paperwork and clipboards between shifts all day; honestly, even I expected it to be more of an issue than it is.

Heavy traffic isn't an excuse? That's like me telling my wife her inability to carry a hundred pounds of luggage up the stairs isn't an excuse for not doing it all in one go.

In the end, my feelings about the issue go like this: Should poeple learn how to swim without a floatation device? Absolutely. Should you force them to not use one? Absolutely not.

Your simile is apt for my original point. Your wife shouldn't be trying to carry the luggage all in one go (ie. clutching and starting endlessly) in the first place. The problem is the approach, not the task itself. As homeforsummer pointed out, alternatives are not always possible -- I won't tell you that you were "doing it wrong" in that city -- but in my experience they very frequently are. Personally, if I had a hellish daily stop-and-go commute, I wouldn't like it any more in an automatic. The blatant waste of all that time and gasoline preys at the back of my mind; I'd find another solution ASAP, even if that involved a longer distance and commute time with more fuel spent. Or a different job.

I don't expect anyone to "swim without a floatation device" if they don't want to (or physically can't), but if I'm casually "lounging in the pool" and someone walking by tells me "swimming" is pointless, antiquated, and too difficult to bother with, or that everyone should just use "hot tubs" instead, I have something to say about that.

P.S. Nice to see you guys again. I got pulled back here by the ForzaPlanet merger, and now that I've found out how to filter the GT forums out of my "New Posts" search, it's a lot easier to keep up with the site.

 

[phil bell]

Well said Wolfe. Even my friends which aren't real car people don't find driving a manual any problem whatsoever.
In fact, they actually quite like it versus an automatic, they say it's satisfying to use.
In the end, it's alot on preference though traffic conditions do play a large role in the decision process too.

 

[Ranman20]

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

 

[Northstar]

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

Which means absolutely nothing on roads...

 

[Beeblebrox237]

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

Can you? A lot of automakers are now putting shorter ratios in manuals because they're usually bought by enthusiasts. A manual is better than a slushbox around a track, but a DCT is better than a manual.

 

[ShobThaBob]

At the end of the day, the only reason I own a manual is because it will see time at tracks. If I knew it was never going to or I had a dedicated race car that I owned (instead of rented) it would be an auto. On top of being an auto, it would also probably be something like an amg or M bimmer.

 

[homeforsummer]

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

Or by driving a car with more power. Or by pressing the accelerator harder.

 

[Ranman20]

Which means absolutely nothing on roads...

Autocross anyone? Track day..

 

[Joey D]

Autocross anyone? Track day..

Have you ever done autocross before? You don't need high speed and you probably rarely get out of 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Ranman20]

Have you ever done autocross before? You don't need high speed and you probably rarely get out of 2nd or 3rd.

Nope but watched some races on youtube. But I agree I've seen track days at nurb and its not pretty. Traffic galore. You can barely go past 1st gear geesh.

 

[Wolfe]

At the end of the day, the only reason I own a manual is because it will see time at tracks. If I knew it was never going to or I had a dedicated race car that I owned (instead of rented) it would be an auto. On top of being an auto, it would also probably be something like an amg or M bimmer.

In my view, that's a bit backwards. The most satisfying place to drive a stick is on my favorite local roads, through the hills and valleys and twisties, where laptimes are meaningless and I can enjoy operating the car at whatever pace I like. Meanwhile, like Beeblebrox237 said, a sequential manual is best around a track, and if I had the choice when entering a race, I'd select a DCT.

However, I'm more of a roads guy than a motorsports guy, so I'm sure my experience in the twisties relates to your experience with a three-pedal manual on a track day.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting some breathing mods on the mustang and taking it to a few track days. If I'm not on the track, I'm not worrying about having loads of fun and the feel of the car and control over the engine. I'm just operating it.

For every day use I want something moderately fast that gives me a good sense of the road. For the track, I want control and liveliness. Right now I have what I think is a good medium of those two. I'd prefer to not have that medium and instead have the extremes.

 

[McLaren]

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

In BMW's case, though, the DCT is usually set to be capable of 185-190Mph (through the GTS) whilst the base M3s in either gearbox usually creep up to just below 180Mph.

If you go through the process of changing the gear ratios, the 6MT gearing limit is 218Mph whilst the 7DCT is 206Mph. But, you'll never get that fast in an M3 & again, it's not how the factory sets it up.

 

[CSLACR]

Except that none of that is really the case (and has already been discussed ad nauseum), apart from perhaps the assumption that if you're interested in driving, you may be more likely to like manual transmissions. Even then, as Joey and Danoff would attest, it's perfectly possible to be a proper driving enthusiast and prefer autos.

"Clumsy and too difficult for the average driver" is rubbish, because the "average" driver in most countries outside the U.S. learns to drive stick as a matter of course, and most get along just fine. Unless you're on a qualifying lap driving a manual really isn't difficult in the slightest. Trying to suggest it is seems no more than a slightly big-headed way of professing your skills over others.

And I don't think attentiveness has anything to do with it either. Is it more difficult to cruise along the freeway with a phone stuck to your head and a vat of coffee between your legs in top gear in a manual, or top gear in an auto? Or do you think both are pretty much the same?

It might change at lower speeds in city driving but all that proves is that the average inattentive moron driver will be slightly worse at being an inattentive moron driver in a manual than they are in an auto - it doesn't mean that manual drivers are more attentive than automatic drivers.

A manual won't make an inattentive driver less inattentive through the extra concentration required. It'll just make them even worse at driving.

I find it interesting how depending on the context, it changes between clumsy and easy.

I guess whatever is convenient for the argument at the moment?
In either case, the people I know drive slower and more attentive with manuals. For a multitude of simple reasons obviously nobody wants to hear in this anti manuals thread.

Automatic simply enables an extra distraction instead of shifting. A cell phone or radio, whatever it may be, it is far worse than being distracted by operating a "kinda clumsy interface".

But yeah, in the States (where I have driven, since you guys all drive in every country)
I don't see people on phones driving manuals. Ever. It has literally not been seen by me. ( not that it doesn't happen, which I am sure this will get twisted into meaning)

 

[Hotwheel]

Well porsche is considering removing manuals from their line up all together. Another reason I absolutely despise porsche even though my dad is a fanatic.

 

[niky]

Flappy paddles are so much better for autocrossing... you do a whole lot of wheel-twirling on tight, low-speed courses. And even on the racetrack, having paddle-shifters is great. Just so long as your steering is geared properly and you don't end up trying to upshift out of the corner with your arms crossed up...

-

I find the topic of Porsches and autos amusing. People have long touted the GT3 as being the msot involved driving experience Porsche has to offer... better than that "artificial" Nissan GT-R. Well, now it has electric steering, electronically controlled suspension damping (via PASM), four-wheel steering and an electronically-controlled differential lock (which helps you turn quicker)... and it's only available with a dual clutch auto. Better living through technology, eh? I quite agree with Porsche that all this makes the car better on the track, but that's perhaps missing what made the GT3 so appealing to enthusiasts, in the first place...

The blatant waste of all that time and gasoline preys at the back of my mind; I'd find another solution ASAP, even if that involved a longer distance and commute time with more fuel spent. Or a different job.

I'm of the same philosophy. Which is why I only drive very occassionally into the city, and when possible, I commute. But the necessity of an automatic (for some people) is there.

P.S. Nice to see you guys again. I got pulled back here by the ForzaPlanet merger, and now that I've found out how to filter the GT forums out of my "New Posts" search, it's a lot easier to keep up with the site.

All you have to exclude is the Marketplace. It's a madhouse in there! Nice to see you again, too.

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

I can see why Ferrari or any other supercar company is no longer offering manual transmissions. That's not what they're about anymore. They're about lap times and dammit their car will do a 6 1/2 minute lap at nurburgring WITH OR WITHOUT A DRIVER!

lol

 

[homeforsummer]

I find it interesting how depending on the context, it changes between clumsy and easy.

I guess whatever is convenient for the argument at the moment?
In either case, the people I know drive slower and more attentive with manuals. For a multitude of simple reasons obviously nobody wants to hear in this anti manuals thread.

Automatic simply enables an extra distraction instead of shifting. A cell phone or radio, whatever it may be, it is far worse than being distracted by operating a "kinda clumsy interface".

But yeah, in the States (where I have driven, since you guys all drive in every country)
I don't see people on phones driving manuals. Ever. It has literally not been seen by me. ( not that it doesn't happen, which I am sure this will get twisted into meaning)

You're spectacularly good at making strawman arguments but not very good at actually discussing things.

Driving a manual - as in actually working a clutch and a gearbox, is very easy. Far easier than working a manual transmission on a motorcycle, and considerably easier than playing guitar, or drums. Like anything else, it is a skill that must be learned, and requires an extra degree of learning over an automatic, but as skills go it's a fairly simple one to pick up.

As far as "I find it interesting how depending on the context, it changes between clumsy and easy. I guess whatever is convenient for the argument at the moment?" goes, I used the word "clumsy" because that was the word you used. As you're not above twisting things to fit your own views (something you accuse others of, amusingly), I'm not overly surprised you've tried to turn the term against me.

Just because something needs very little skill, like the basic operation of using a manual gearbox, it doesn't mean it can't also get a bit tiresome after a while.

To pull it back to the guitar analogy, playing guitar is a skill that must be learned. It's highly enjoyable once you get the hang of it. But that doesn't mean your fingers don't ache after playing for an hour, and hitting a triangle is a heck of a lot simpler.

And for the record, I've driven in the States. As well as the UK. And half a dozen other European countries. And Dubai. A crap driver is a crap driver - the transmission is irrelevant. Perhaps your "slower and more attentive" friends are doing so because they're simply not very good at handling the basic actions required to operate a manual gearbox. You should probably suggest an auto to them.

 

[Danoff]

Clumsy and too difficult for the average driver, this increased difficulty is required by some of us to stay entertained and interested in driving.

If you need to drive stick to be entertained and interested while driving, hand over your keys you're a terrible driver. There is a lot to do while driving that has nothing to do with your car and everything to do with every single car around you and the conditions you're driving in. If you can't get interested in driving unless you're driving a stick, you're not a car enthusiast, you're a bad driver.

You could even even argue it's harder to be distracted with a manual because it becomes too difficult to insert your head squarely into your rectum (cell phone) without crashing.

Because you need a hand to work the stick, so you can't hold on to the phone right? I've seen plenty of people talk on the phone while driving stick (I've done it myself). It is more dangerous.

If we are talking about an attentive driver, they're still more attentove with manual. You have to.

Attentive to the road? Or attentive to your tachometer?

It is for me. I feel confident that I can say the same for a number of other manual drivers, and I went no further than that: "For us, driving a manual is...effortless." I don't think about clutching or shifting, I just do it, like braking or steering. It's just driving, nothing more.

It's not driving, it's operating a transmission. It's a thing you're used to doing while driving, that doesn't make it driving. Operating a lever that controls your engine's fuel-air mixture wouldn't be driving either, it's adjusting the operating conditions of your engine.

Yes, driving a stick becomes second nature when you're used to it. It did for me, and yet somehow, for some reason, I'd still drive our automatic vehicles when I expected heavy traffic instead of my manual. But how could that be if I wasn't thinking about it? Because your muscles are doing it, and it gets annoying.

Manuals are not good for commuting - pointless body movements that are easily automated. For commuting an automatic wins. Manuals are not good for sports driving - ridiculous dancing around to control RPMs and botched shifts because of said dancing. For sports driving a DCT wins. Since DCT can do both of the above, DCT wins altogether.

Both automatics and manuals are/should go the way of the dinosaur. Something to be found on old cars.

Well said Wolfe. Even my friends which aren't real car people don't find driving a manual any problem whatsoever.
In fact, they actually quite like it versus an automatic, they say it's satisfying to use.

I've found that 99.9% of people who drive manuals are absolutely terrible at driving manuals. A lot of people who think they're good at it, and who love to drive stick, are atrocious drivers who are destroying their transmissions. Some of the worst drivers I know drive stick.

It's hard to ruin an automatic by putting a bad driver behind the wheel (it's possible, but hard). It's not all that hard to ruin a manual by doing so. One buddy of mine who loved to drive stick would shift into first (without rev matching) at 30+mph as he was approach a stop light just because he wanted to have the stick in first gear when the light turned green. Talk about synchro-destruction.

Everyone in this thread pretends that those who drive stick are all experts at rev-matching and heel-toe. Almost nobody that drives stick does that stuff. Most of them use the wrong gear, dump the clutch and give their passengers wiplash, and don't even know what rev-matching is.

...and that's the state that many many many used manual transmissions are in.

You can reach higher speeds using manual.

The world record for fastest production street car was recently set by... an automatic.

Automatic simply enables an extra distraction instead of shifting. A cell phone or radio, whatever it may be, it is far worse than being distracted by operating a "kinda clumsy interface".

Yes, manual drivers never use the radio or talk on the phone.

I don't see people on phones driving manuals. Ever. It has literally not been seen by me. ( not that it doesn't happen, which I am sure this will get twisted into meaning)

I've done it. I've seen it (this is without bluetooth). I've also of course done it with bluetooth - which is significantly better.

Honestly I'm starting to think that manual fanatics actually hate driving. All they ever talk about is how entertaining it is to drive stick and they seem to imply that if they were driving an automatic that they'd be bored into talking on the phone or knitting socks. If you need a stick to keep you entertained, you are a bad driver.

 

[Tornado]

I don't see people on phones driving manuals. Ever. It has literally not been seen by me. ( not that it doesn't happen, which I am sure this will get twisted into meaning)

Pay more attention, I guess? It's not like it's really that hard in the first place (I've also done it, back when Dad had his Neon; both by putting the phone on my shoulder and putting it on speakerphone and putting it on the door frame); or that the people who don't really care about driving safety won't suddenly start caring just because they have to shift themselves (such as taking their hand off the wheel to shift while their left hand is already holding the phone, which I've seen and my mother still does on the extremely rare occasion that she drives a car with a stick and gets a phone call, despite me commenting on it every time I see her do it).

 

[Pupik]

If you need a stick to keep you entertained, you are a bad driver.

Bad analogy. And for the love of flywheel, not all cars have an automatic transmission that's entered the 21st century, and in those cases, typically the manual is faster and/or offers better fuel economy. Fun is not a measurement, anyhow.

But yeah, some cars aren't entertaining to drive, and would probably be even less fun if it were manual (trucks, SUVs, large sedans).

 

[ShobThaBob]

Yay for Danoff coming in here and articulating reason and intelligence.

 

[niky]

You haven't done distracted driving until...

I've seen people do this. On manual bikes. And with manual cars. The putative connection between automatics and distracted driving is purely anecdotal, at best... while controlled studies have shown that automatic transmissions are safer for older drivers and drivers with poorer reflexes in emergency situations.

 

[MrWednesday]

Rev matching doesn't take wut?

It doesn't require feel on the part of the driver, because the target is well-defined. A simple controller could do it---all you're trying to do is make engine revs match transmission input shaft revs.

 

[phil bell]

It's not driving, it's operating a transmission. It's a thing you're used to doing while driving, that doesn't make it driving. Operating a lever that controls your engine's fuel-air mixture wouldn't be driving either, it's adjusting the operating conditions of your engine.

Yes, driving a stick becomes second nature when you're used to it. It did for me, and yet somehow, for some reason, I'd still drive our automatic vehicles when I expected heavy traffic instead of my manual. But how could that be if I wasn't thinking about it? Because your muscles are doing it, and it gets annoying.

Manuals are not good for commuting - pointless body movements that are easily automated. For commuting an automatic wins. Manuals are not good for sports driving - ridiculous dancing around to control RPMs and botched shifts because of said dancing. For sports driving a DCT wins. Since DCT can do both of the above, DCT wins altogether.

Both automatics and manuals are/should go the way of the dinosaur. Something to be found on old cars.



I've found that 99.9% of people who drive manuals are absolutely terrible at driving manuals. A lot of people who think they're good at it, and who love to drive stick, are atrocious drivers who are destroying their transmissions. Some of the worst drivers I know drive stick.

It's hard to ruin an automatic by putting a bad driver behind the wheel (it's possible, but hard). It's not all that hard to ruin a manual by doing so. One buddy of mine who loved to drive stick would shift into first (without rev matching) at 30+mph as he was approach a stop light just because he wanted to have the stick in first gear when the light turned green. Talk about synchro-destruction.

Everyone in this thread pretends that those who drive stick are all experts at rev-matching and heel-toe. Almost nobody that drives stick does that stuff. Most of them use the wrong gear, dump the clutch and give their passengers wiplash, and don't even know what rev-matching is.

...and that's the state that many many many used manual transmissions are in.

Operating a manual can be part of the enjoyment while driving, if some people like to do it, so be it. If it lets them feel more in control, gives them increased satisfaction, tactile experience,etc then nothing wrong. And that analogy is poor as shifting a stick is nowhere near as tedious as constantly fettling a switch to the perfect position to maintain AFR.

Also, it dosen't take much to figure out an auto is nicer in traffic, but a good manual is not exactly torture imo.

Well your point that a DCT is technically superior is true, but again, preference. Some would want a manual for their cars for a more involved experience, ie: The experience of rowing through the gears and getting it right as well as nailing that perfect downshift are enough reason for the manual to live. However antiquated, it can bring a certain level of primal satisfaction. This is especially true for cheaper "fun" cars like Mustangs, GT86, etc. If you're talking about pointless body movements, just automate the whole car then.

Also with regards to your comment on manuals getting destroyed, I have many that I know, all ages, that have used manuals with no such issue. The practical driving lessons are pretty good here, that is the least of my concerns.

Of course there are those drivers you talk about and they certainly do exist, and yes and auto/DCT would do the job better for them, but not all of us are them.

Yay for Danoff coming in here and articulating reason and intelligence.

Thanks for contributing such a valuable tidbit of info to the discussion.