Save the Manuals!

[homeforsummer]

To me theres just something about doing things myself that appeals to me so much. I think thats the real appeal to a manual.

I agree with this to an extent, and it's why there are certain cars I'd never want to drive as an auto. Some because the autos are supposed to be rubbish anyway, but others because it either wouldn't suit the character of the car, or wouldn't be as fun as an auto.

Personally though, I've now driven enough cars to know which ones I prefer as manual and which are more pleasant and even more fun as autos.

To an extent, it's power related. As a car gets more powerful and faster, my desire to shift gears manually decreases. I've driven a few ~500bhp cars and with your foot flat down there's already enough to concentrate on without faffing about with a manual shifter as well!

My personal limit is around 300 bhp I think - I've driven a TTS and a BMW M135i, both auto (a DCT and torque converter, respectively) and I'd struggle to see how either would be more fun with manuals. And yet, a bit down from this, a Renaultsport Megane 265 seems about the right performance level (and the right sort of car) to suit a manual shifter.

If I were to break it down further, I'd probably say anything smaller than a BMW 3-Series - best with a manual (with the power output caveat), anything bigger, best with auto. Anything diesel should be auto, too - the power and torque curves of diesels are so narrow that it quickly gets boring shifting solely to keep in the meat of the power.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Slightly off topic gents But I have a question.

Regarding autos why is there an Over drive gear,why isn't it like any other gear (they don't have special buttons). Thanks in advance for answering my noob question.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Slightly off topic gents But I have a question.

Regarding autos why is there an Over drive gear,why isn't it like any other gear (they don't have special buttons). Thanks in advance for answering my noob question.

Direct drive: engine turns once & transmission turns once
Overdrive: engine turns once & transmission turns over 1 revolution
Underdrive: engine turns once & transmission turns under 1 revolution (necessitating a "shift" to reach a higher speed & lower engine RPM for highway cruising)

 

[BrutherSuperior]

My personal limit is around 300 bhp I think - I've driven a TTS and a BMW M135i, both auto (a DCT and torque converter, respectively) and I'd struggle to see how either would be more fun with manuals.

Power is fleeting.

Long before the honeymoon is over, you get used to the thrust. That sucked in the seat feeling and the music from under the hood become the norm and isn't as exciting as it used to be. The cure; more power.

I've owned everything from $100 jalopies to <10s big blocks that ran on avgas. Your typical hopped up Mustang or M3 (owned and currently own) just doesn't satisfy the "fix" speed junkies need. It's why there are companies that make aftermarket superchargers, turbo systems, and NOx injection. People blow money on that, get used to the car, then buy another car, slap 30-40% more power on that, and then move on to the next thing...or get married.

Regarding fun;
I don't know about the TTS but the BMW drive-by-wire system takes a bit of time to get used to. Sloth-like commuting traffic makes the system respond slowly. Then you get that opening and an opportunity to open the throttle bodies and......it thinks about it. Now add in a downshift or two from a computer controlled auto-box and any instant burst of speed you request from BMW's MCP (heh) takes too long for my liking.

Whether it's a fleet-spec Dodge Ram or a newer BMW with whiz-bang electronics, they all drive me mad.

So while a "row your own" gearbox may or may not make a car more fun, an automatic transmission is a sure-fire way to make a car not fun for me. And if that's the case, why wouldn't I just get a car that was never meant to be fun? Corolla anyone?

But if I'm buying a car that is supposed to be fun or at least has sporting pretensions, no way would I burden myself with a gear selector that has a "D" on it. The transmission not doing what I want it to exactly when I want it is a deal breaker.

 

[CSLACR]

Direct drive: engine turns once & transmission turns once
Overdrive: engine turns once & transmission turns over 1 revolution
Underdrive: engine turns once & transmission turns under 1 revolution (necessitating a "shift" to reach a higher speed & lower engine RPM for highway cruising)

Or the simple version, is that the whole overdrive bit is nonsense unless used in conjunction with quite a few other figures.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

When grow older all the car I will buy WILL BE MANUAL>

 

[Danoff]

When grow older all the car I will buy WILL BE MANUAL>

Prepare to be buying some old cars.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

Prepare to be buying some old cars.

There is a lot of cars with the manual option.

 

[Danoff]

There is a lot of cars with the manual option.

Do you know what this thread is about?

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'd probably buy another manual, I'd probably buy another automatic...

I'd DEFINITELY buy a car with the Fast and the Furious gear box.... endless ratio's from which to choose... all offering boundless acceleration... just got to remember not to granny shift.

 

[CSLACR]

Do you know what this thread is about?

That manual clutches are next in line in the never ending quest to remove human control from driving?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The thread is about bringing together a group of people who want to be able to buy a new car with a manual transmission. It's also for debate on whether this group of people is antiquated or fun-loving, or something else.

 

[CSLACR]

The thread is about bringing together a group of people who want to be able to buy a new car with a manual transmission. It's also for debate on whether this group of people is antiquated or fun-loving, or something else.

Purists would be the common term.

Anytime in life people change or remove control to make things easier and/or faster, It is frowned upon by those who have mastered the original technique.

Especially when you're not removing the issue in question, but instead simply using technology to do it for you.

Jeremy Clarkson raced TGTT without touching any controls you know.
Bet it's not as fun as driving though.

 

[Azuremen]

Purists would be the common term.

Anytime in life people change or remove control to make things easier and/or faster, It is frowned upon by those who have mastered the original technique.

I'd say your attitude is more elitist than purist, based on the attitude I'm reading in your posts.

 

[Joel]

Just to throw my hat in the ring, I think it really depends on the car. If I bought an FR-S, Miata, S2000, MR2, M3, etc. then I'd want a manual. If I bought an SUV/minivan it's going to be auto. If I buy a Mercedes it's probably going to be auto, if I buy a BMW that's bigger than a 3 series it'll be an auto. If I'm buying a Corolla, it's going to be an auto).

I don't think driving a comfy Mercedes sedan is made better with a manual, but I can't see a Miata or FR-S being more fun with an auto. It's about the car you're driving. it's not like a Corolla becomes super fun because you get to fondle a knob while you drive.

 

[homeforsummer]

Power is fleeting.

This I'm aware of. It's surprising how quickly you get used to even 500hp or so in a 30-minute drive.

However, that wasn't really my point. My point was that 300hp or so is my personal cut-off for how bothered I am about rowing my own gears. Cars with that sort of thrust and above tend to get through gears pretty quickly these days (might have been different in the days of four-speeds, but with six gears you spend your life hitting the limiter). A good DCT or torque converter auto just keeps that power going without constant gearstick-shuffling.

And the ones I've driven aren't appreciably less responsive than manuals. Not enough to make it an easy win for the manual in terms of fun, anyway, and particularly with the "sport" throttle settings most seem to have these days - if anything, some are a bit too sharp in those modes.

 

[05XR8]

It depends where you live and speed limits. My XR8 was pretty much useless with its 6-speed because the limits are 60kmh around town. When I lived in NY there's a parkway/hiway everywhere. I could stretch my Civic Si and Odyssey. Driving here from Newcastle to Sydney, is pretty much all that can be done to reach higher speeds. I did a drive from Newcastle to Melbourne and back, twice. It's just not the same when I drove from Orlando to Miami in a Vette convertible. I agree with the mapping and gearing of new cars. Our Megane 265 Trophy is too quick, even when detuned to 250. The car will never see 5th or 6th around town.

 

[CSLACR]

I'd say your attitude is more elitist than purist, based on the attitude I'm reading in your posts.

Heel and toe was once considered a fundamental.

People have bypassed it with computers.
Anyone who can master a manual should have an elitist attitude about it.

TCS might make your car faster for you too, computers are better than people, there is no mystery or skill in that.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Heel and toe was once considered a fundamental.

People have bypassed it with computers.
Anyone who can master a manual should have an elitist attitude about it.

TCS might make your car faster for you too, computers are better than people, there is no mystery or skill in that.

When was heel & toeing ever a 'fundamental'? De-clutching might have been I suppose.

Also, maybe in America people who have mastered a manual might consider themselves the elite. Over here we call people who've mastered a manual 'Drivers', and those that haven't are known as 'Learner Drivers'.

 

[CSLACR]

When was heel & toeing ever a 'fundamental'? De-clutching might have been I suppose.

Also, maybe in America people who have mastered a manual might consider themselves the elite. Over here we call people who've mastered a manual 'Drivers', and those that haven't are known as 'Learner Drivers'.

Do you realize you've supported my position on the matter?
And don't be so foolish as to assume when I say 'master', to mean what the general public does anywhere.
Maybe Finland.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Do you realize you've supported my position on the matter?
And don't be so foolish as to assume when I say 'master', to mean what the general public does anywhere.
Maybe Finland.

Nope, not sure I follow you.

Besides that, I thought it was the Handbrake that the Finnish were masters of?

 

[niky]

Anyone who can master a manual should have an elitist attitude about it.

Mastering a manual transmission is a whole lot easier than riding a motorbike.

And all heel-and-toeing has ever done for me is given me the ability to crunch through the gears under deceleration without using my left foot.

I have enough to deal with, see, decelerating, engine-braking, shifting, heel-and-toeing, texting and eating fast food at the same time. If I had to do that all while clutching... well...

-

Therein lies one of the issues of distracted driving. If somebody wants to drive distracted, giving him a clutch to play with doesn't really change that. Back in the bad old days, we could eat, drink and change out of or into our jackets while driving a stick down the highway or in traffic, with an arm dangling out the window to hold a cigarette. It's not really that difficult to distract yourself to the point of being a danger to everyone else.

This is not to say that people shouldn't learn how to drive a stick. They ought to, because it gives them a better appreciation of what goes on inside that black box underneath the hood. But being a stick driver doesn't automatically make you a ninja master.

 

[homeforsummer]

But being a stick driver doesn't automatically make you a ninja master.

Apart from anyone who can master the "Moss 'box" on an early Jag MkII. That one had me completely flummoxed. Only car I've driven in ten years to make me feel like a learner driver again

It has to be said, a lot of the skills considered the preserve of masters of the manual 'box have traditionally been no more than work-arounds for poor technology.

I mean, who'd really like to go back to pre-syncromesh gearboxes? You'd be heel/toeing and double-clutching the whole time and I'm sure feel like a massive boss, but it'd also be a pain in the arse for 99% of driving.

I don't intend this to sound like a "ZOMG, MANUALS ARE TERRIBLE" post (I've expressed my fondness for both transmissions enough for most to know I sit on the fence) but some techniques simply aren't that important any more. And much as I'd quite like to learn how to properly heel and toe, I can't help feeling that some use it as no more than a way to show off their e-penis.

As an aside, modern cars don't make learning heel/toe easy anyway, since they have such sensitive brakes. It's no fun trying to learn when it's so hard to do so at anything less than full emergency stop braking force. When my Beetle is done I'm learning on that. It doesn't have any brakes so you need to press hard to slow down at all Everything happens in slow motion, like learning the guitar using a half-speed backing track.

 

[Tornado]

When was heel-toeing ever fundamental? When transmissions didn't have synchros?

 

[phil bell]

When you're braking hard in a manual car, of whatever year/make/model* heel and toe is COMPLETELY necessary to prevent the rear wheels chirping when downshifting.

*Except the Nissan 370Z which has a option for a gadget that does it for you.

However I dont think it is necessary to heel/toe when driving normally.

 

[niky]

On the racetrack, if you're doing the classic slow-in fast-out, you save all your downshifts for the end of your braking, to ensure maximum stability, and heel-and-toe isn't so important then. But if you plan on trail-braking into a corner and want to balance the car out under engine braking, it's an important skill to master.

Important for that vanishingly small percentage of drivers who actually drive a manual car without stability control on the racetrack. The "on the racetrack" part is important.

If you're driving a manual car on the road and have to slow down for a corner or obstacle, heel-and-toe is absolutely useless. In a modern car, in an emergency stop, downshifting to engine-brake does absolutely nothing to shorten stopping distances. Something we've learned over the past four years and over four hundred emergency stop tests.

 

[Danoff]

I used to heel-toe on specific turns while driving on the street. I remember one was a 90 degree turn onto a steep uphill climb to a freeway merge where traffic was doing 70+. So I needed to go from about 30 mph to 70+ while climbing a hill in a fairly short distance, and only had 200 hp to work with. That meant downshifting aggressively, and that meant I heel-toed to save my synchros. Annoying... I shouldn't need three feet to drive a car.

In my auto I just move the stick into manumatic and push forward, done.

 

[MrWednesday]

Heel-toe is an artifact arising out of the need to provide five control inputs with only four appendages to effect those inputs. The "extra" input is also the most purely mechanical of the inputs that need to be provided---rev-matching doesn't involve any "feel" or judgment on the part of the driver, unlike steering, braking, gear selection, or to a lesser extent clutch operation.

 

[CSLACR]

Heel-toe is an artifact arising out of the need to provide five control inputs with only four appendages to effect those inputs. The "extra" input is also the most purely mechanical of the inputs that need to be provided---rev-matching doesn't involve any "feel" or judgment on the part of the driver, unlike steering, braking, gear selection, or to a lesser extent clutch operation.

Rev matching doesn't take wut?

 

[Wolfe]

Driving manual shouldn't be "elite" because it's damned simple. That may also be the reason it generates a degree of "elitism" -- because it's damned simple. When others constantly complain about the "hardships" of an elementary thing that you do every day, it kinda contributes to an elitist attitude. Or at least confusion.

For anyone who refuses to drive manual because it's "hard" or "complicated" or "distracting" or whatever, you're not going to get any sympathy from manual drivers. For us, driving manual is second-nature, straightforward, and effortless. It's no more taxing than anything else you do behind the wheel. It's just driving. Honestly, you might as well complain that drinking a glass of water is too hard, you'd rather have a straw.

I'll point out that there are valid performance/utility cases for automatics, and no one can argue with plain preference, but I find it difficult to stomach any claims against manuals based upon difficulty of use. Heavy traffic is not an excuse either; rapid repetitive "stop and creep" is a pointless bad habit that everyone should break.

Heel-toe is an artifact arising out of the need to provide five control inputs with only four appendages to effect those inputs.

The car wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last invention with more inputs than human appendages. Your arithmetic holds no proof.