Save the Manuals!

We may have a manual as soon as tomorrow. I'm so excited. :D

It's a 2001 Saturn SC1 with a 5 speed. Nice little car.
 
I would like to join! I think more of my generation need to learn a manual! I have driven my dad's '96 Passat TDI 5spd and '93 MR2 Turbo 5spd, one of his customer's '11 Challenger 5spd, and soon my '89 MR2 SC 5spd. All at the age of 15 :sly: I also have and '06 ZX6R, but all bikes are manual...

I will update my sig and everything next time I'm on.
 
Equal manual and automatic? Don't exist. Even the best manual is not as easy to use as the best automatic.

Then again, not even the best automatic can give you as much fine control over car balance as the best manual... but it leaves you less room to make stupid, balance-changing mistakes with the transmission.

There are some applications for which the suitable manual is a pain in the arse to use. Many six speed boxes are already tight... Fitting seven or eight into a gate-type is worse. Doing the half-a-million or so in a semi requires an engineering degree.



eaton-fuller-13-speed-shift-pattern-21817-1-500x500.jpg


Could you get used to it? Sure. Could you use something so complex on the racetrack? Errh... ever wonder why Big Rig drivers are so incensed if you merge in front of them and make them lose momentum? :lol:

-

I've been driving lots of newfangled transmissions over the past few years, and I'm starting to think the tradtional torque converter might just be the best thing on the market now, from an ownership point of view.

I'm wary of the clutch life on dual clutch boxes, and the belt and clutch pack life on CVTs. Manual transmissions are increasingly reliant on dual-mass flywheels to maintain balance and smoothness. Ask anyone who owns one of these cars how painful it is to change clutches when the shop recommends you change out the DMF at the same time. :ouch:

Yes, you can rebuild a DMF, but few people do it, as of yet.

A torque converter AT, on the other hand, as long as you replace the fluid regularly, is a known quantity. The torque converter bears the brunt of the shock loads for the clutches, and most of that shock goes into the fluid, which you throw away every xx,xxx miles. There are no floppy belts or chains. There's no chance of the transmission borking a shift and ruining a very thin and fragile synchromesh gear. The clutch packs are not ridiculously expensive or "lifetime" items (Oh Getrag, how you lie...). And the traditional pitfalls of the "slushbox" are becoming less of an issue with these new electronic locking clutch packs and electronically controlled systems.

-----

But if you're buying a cheap, cheap car like a Mirage or Spark... hell, get the manual. Small car automatics are complete 🤬
 
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I don't blame anybody for having a manual, my uncle has a manual SS Commodore - brand new. It's great but having grown up with automatic, it's hard to get over those smooth gears changes in my families Falcon!!!:sly:
 
What you grow up with has a lot of influence. My parents had manuals until last year,now we have one manual and one auto. Because of this, automatics feel sort of wierd to me. Now you know why I always want a manual!
 
I would sure like to see specs before considering the notion a Prius is even larger than an S60 at all, let alone significantly.

Also keep in mind, a small car outperforming a larger car doesn't touch the question at hand. You would take the average smaller cars vs the average larger cars, to remove technology or lack thereof from the equation.

Danoff
Not necessarily. In a truck? I wouldn't unless I'd be doing a lot of towing or driving in mud or something. SUV? Nope. Sedan? Depends on what I'm using it for.
I was referring to cars, I always assume people can decipher the difference when it's obvious.

Of course, I'll still take a comparable manual over at every time. Unless it's an absolutely casual vehicle AND gets better fuel mileage.
Even then it would irritate me.
 


Manual transmissions are quite simply a poor interface. There is a very good reason they are dying. Let them die.
 
Doing the half-a-million or so in a semi requires an engineering degree.

My best mate drives a semi. Having seen various examples of just how difficult they are to drive, I've a lot of respect for his driving skills! Incidentally, he makes an unbelievably smooth and relaxed car driver, possibly because he's so used to applying those skills on something a lot bigger.

He owns two cars - one is a manual, one is an auto. He likes both for different reasons!

I'm wary of the clutch life on dual clutch boxes, and the belt and clutch pack life on CVTs. Manual transmissions are increasingly reliant on dual-mass flywheels to maintain balance and smoothness.

I'm intrigued to see how DCTs last. In theory, they could be better than a regular manual - the clutch should very rarely slip since one is letting go as the other is engaging. Even given very fast changes, they're theoretically sharing the work that one clutch would normally have to bear itself.

That said, I've heard reports of the earliest VW DCTs going wrong - but I don't know whether those early issues have been ironed out. My issue now would be buying a DCT from a company that's only recently got into the tech - Renault, or Alfa Romeo for example.

And yeah, the prevalence of DMFs on manuals is starting to worry me. My old, shortly-owned Rover was an old diesel with a DMF, and I was petrified it was going to go wrong at some point since on its own it's a £1,000 job. Add another grand to that for the clutch...

Best transmission? Much as people hate it (having only ever driven them in Gran Turismo), it's the planetary gearsets used by many hybrids. Almost impeccably reliable, incredibly low maintenance, really quite compact, very few moving parts...

On a personal note, I'm split 50/50 on manuals and autos at the moment. I do enjoy when I have a manual test car in, but I also like relaxing when I've got an auto. As I've mentioned before, it's completely a car thing for me. Some cars I'd only ever have manual, others I'd only ever have auto.
 
Sorry for asking a question on a forum.
 
Dual Mass Flywheel. Was it that hard to type the same three letters in the google bar?

Errr...

google
Dimethylformamide - Wikipedia

DMF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DMF | Home www.dmfmusic.co.uk/DMF is an independent music agency based in Exeter, Devon

DMF Wakefield Ltd: Garage Equipment, MOT Equipment - Yorkshire

Products » DMF-10 | CHAUVET® Lighting

DMF Performance Parts UK - Pontyclun, United Kingdom ...

Contact DMF Lettings - Letting Agents in Milton Keynes

DMF Lettings - DMF LETTINGS

DMF Events
www.devonmaritimeforum.org.uk/index.php/DMF-Events/

JISCMail - DMF-L List at WWW.JISCMAIL.AC.UK

in fact I was on Page 7 by the time Dual Mass Flywheel was mentioned.

Probably, doesn't hurt to ask a question that's on the topic of the discussion at hand, saves trawling through google...
 
Danoff
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swvf3w6hcY4">YouTube Link</a>

Manual transmissions are quite simply a poor interface. There is a very good reason they are dying. Let them die.

So are gas and brake pedals, steering wheels too.

But if you enjoy driving, you dont agree with a word of this.
 
I enjoy driving, and having finally driven a good DSG with a stickshift (instead of flappy paddles) I no longer think regular manuals are particularly important to have the most fun.
 
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So are gas and brake pedals, steering wheels too.

But if you enjoy driving, you dont agree with a word of this.

Gas and brake pedals are fine interfaces, superior to their motorcycle equivalents. The steering wheel, which is also preferable to handlebars, a joystick, or yoke, is a very nice interface - the only flaw being that we can't turn it all the way around without removing our hands. The clutch, which is a poor interface, is not about driving, it's about manipulating the transmission interface with the engine. It'd be like having a fuel mixture lever or choke lever on the dash. Uh... not driving. No thanks.

IMG_0345_engcontrols2.JPG
 
So are gas and brake pedals, steering wheels too.

But if you enjoy driving, you dont agree with a word of this.

Thing is I enjoy driving very much and honestly letting manuals die wouldn't bother me at all. They are very antiquated, however you can still have fun with them. I've compared manuals to the original Nintendo before, just because something is old and out-of-date doesn't mean you can't still enjoy it. I like having a manual in my track car, but I like having an automatic in my daily driver. Both are also enjoyable to drive for different reasons.

I really don't understand the whole mentality that "you can't have fun with an automatic" because a fun car is a fun car whether you're waggling a stick or not.
 
I'm intrigued to see how DCTs last. In theory, they could be better than a regular manual - the clutch should very rarely slip since one is letting go as the other is engaging. Even given very fast changes, they're theoretically sharing the work that one clutch would normally have to bear itself.

Problem being the clutch on first gear still has to slip for launches and getting started. With DCTs, transmission logic keeps it from slipping too much and first gear can be very short to minimize the time spent slipping. Even so, the wear is still there. Getrag, which supplies DCTs to Mitsubishi, Volvo and Ford, made its earlier DCTs as "lifetime" equipment, with the clutches guaranteed to outlast the car. Obviously, for a lot of VW and Ford owners, that's not happening.

Erk. Getting old, I actually had to google it... VW's supplier is BorgWarner... and obviously, they've been having issues, too.

I like the DCT idea. But it's imperative that they admit the clutch is still a wear item and build the transmissions for easier servicing.


And yeah, the prevalence of DMFs on manuals is starting to worry me. My old, shortly-owned Rover was an old diesel with a DMF, and I was petrified it was going to go wrong at some point since on its own it's a £1,000 job. Add another grand to that for the clutch...

It's a 🤬-storm of an issue that most people are unaware of until the moment they have to replace those suckers. Finding out your standard clutch job costs two to three times as much as before? Not fun.

That said, standard flywheels are also wear items. But they wear out so slowly that we basically ignore replacing them unless something goes bad.

planetary_DMF_SACHS_dual-mass-flywheel_-ZF.jpg

A Dual Mass Flywheel is a needlessly complex piece of equipment. We already have crank dampers, balancer shafts and counterbalance shafts to quell vibrations. The DMF exists only to quell out that last bit of vibration they can't damp out and to absorb shock loads during shifts. Something that can be done with better engine mounts and ECU programming that smooths out torque delivery.

While they can be rebuilt, manufacturers often consider them disposable, like clutches. That'd be okay if they were as cheap as clutches, but they aren't.


Best transmission? Much as people hate it (having only ever driven them in Gran Turismo), it's the planetary gearsets used by many hybrids. Almost impeccably reliable, incredibly low maintenance, really quite compact, very few moving parts...

Hear hear. People rag on Prii, but that transmission and engine-electric motor combination are incredibly robust and reliable. Sadly, as a planetary has a limited effective speed range, you would still need some way to switch from low range to high range gearing in a non-hybrid with a planetary.


I think it was in another thread, but I've argued before for the return of the "choke" control.

Hell, if a manufacturer sees fit to deliver a manual transmission car with manual idle control, ignition advance mapping control and fuel mapping control at my fingertips, I will be deliriously happy. :D
 
Joey D
Thing is I enjoy driving very much and honestly letting manuals die wouldn't bother me at all. They are very antiquated, however you can still have fun with them. I've compared manuals to the original Nintendo before, just because something is old and out-of-date doesn't mean you can't still enjoy it. I like having a manual in my track car, but I like having an automatic in my daily driver. Both are also enjoyable to drive for different reasons.

I really don't understand the whole mentality that "you can't have fun with an automatic" because a fun car is a fun car whether you're waggling a stick or not.
Same effect as taking the stomp out of stomping it really.

We can discuss all day the potential merits of automatic, but at the end of the day, there is an undeniable fundamental difference.
Control.

Say whatever you like praising automatics, they'll always be inferior in multiple ways.
Price
Weight
Control
Mastering something difficult (instead of asking it be done for you)

Maybe name some cons in your praise too.
 
It's a 🤬-storm of an issue that most people are unaware of until the moment they have to replace those suckers. Finding out your standard clutch job costs two to three times as much as before? Not fun.

That said, standard flywheels are also wear items. But they wear out so slowly that we basically ignore replacing them unless something goes bad.

A Dual Mass Flywheel is a needlessly complex piece of equipment. We already have crank dampers, balancer shafts and counterbalance shafts to quell vibrations. The DMF exists only to quell out that last bit of vibration they can't damp out and to absorb shock loads during shifts. Something that can be done with better engine mounts and ECU programming that smooths out torque delivery.

That's the bit that kinda annoys me too. Modern engines would still be incredibly smooth and refined even without DMFs. Heck, a lot of those switching to 3-cylinders now use weighted crankshafts to smooth vibration. I don't know if those are any more or less reliable (how badly can you cock up a crankshaft?) but I'd prefer it to a grand's worth of flywheel that, if you're unlucky, needs replacing every 5-10 years.

On a related note, you mention them being used to absorb shock loads during shifts. If that's why so many cars have such a vague feel between clutch and shifter these days then you've just given me another reason to hate DMFs.

Since we're on about how great manuals are, if I'm gonna have a manual I at least want to think a smooth shift is all my own doing (with a little help from the synchro rings, of course, as Danoff would point out...).

Hear hear. People rag on Prii, but that transmission and engine-electric motor combination are incredibly robust and reliable. Sadly, as a planetary has a limited effective speed range, you would still need some way to switch from low range to high range gearing in a non-hybrid with a planetary.

Yeah. But that may not be an issue if more cars become hybrids...

Hell, if a manufacturer sees fit to deliver a manual transmission car with manual idle control, ignition advance mapping control and fuel mapping control at my fingertips, I will be deliriously happy. :D

The child in me wants that too, if only to have a big row of switches to flip and levers to pull so I can ricochet down the road like Toad of Toad Hall :D

Say whatever you like praising automatics, they'll always be inferior in multiple ways.
Price
Weight
Control
Mastering something difficult (instead of asking it be done for you)

It depends exactly what you want from your driving to how much any of those matter, though.

Price - people are prepared to pay the extra to have their car do the work for them sometimes - see virtually any modern car technology.

Weight - Without comparing side-by-side, is this something you'd really notice? In fact, could you hand-on-heart say you'd notice the difference in weight between an auto and a manual without being on a race track? Even then, I suspect it'd be small. There's more difference in the weight of different engine capacities, and on a track the different driving characteristics of auto and manual would probably affect lap times more than weight.

Control - Ultimately, an automatic drivetrain responds to your right foot slightly slower than with the direct drive of a manual (though I say this loosely - I've driven plenty of manuals with awful throttle response - and I think I mentioned it earlier actually, but I find throttle response much more important than the way the gears are being shifted). But control has penalties as well as benefits. Is it "control" every time you cock up a shift? Every time you stall? Every time you crunch a gear? Or is it "control" to pull a paddle and have the gearbox do exactly what you want, exactly when you want it?

The analogy here is whether you use the remote or get off your ass to change the TV station. You're getting a different channel either way and you've been able to control what you see - it's just a different way of going about it.

Mastering something difficult - Again, I can appreciate this. I taught myself rev-matching and now do it as second-nature. A friend pointed out I was even doing it in a diesel, high-roof, long wheelbase Transit van a few years ago :lol: Heel & toe I've not mastered yet - introducing the brakes to rev-matching is an extra area of difficulty, and not an easy one to hone on the road. Ditto left-foot braking. But who is to say that it's an important part of driving? I can't drift either, but that doesn't mean I can't have fun behind the wheel of a rear-drive car - something doesn't have to be difficult to be enjoyable. I find driving itself, whether manual or auto, pretty damn easy actually.
 
Same effect as taking the stomp out of stomping it really.

We can discuss all day the potential merits of automatic, but at the end of the day, there is an undeniable fundamental difference.
Control.

Say whatever you like praising automatics, they'll always be inferior in multiple ways.
Price
Weight
Control
Mastering something difficult (instead of asking it be done for you)

Maybe name some cons in your praise too.

I don't really understand your comparison of taking the stomp out of stomping. If you're suggesting that taking the manual our of a car takes all the fun out of it, then you probably should go drive a fun automatic car. I mean what do you think you'd have more fun with? A big rig truck or the new Porsche GT3? The big rig has 18 gears you manually shift while the Porsche has an automatic double clutch box.

And automatics may be inferior to some in terms of fun, which is entirely subjective, but in terms of technology and performance they are way ahead of the manual transmission. They shift faster and they never miss a gear. Manufactures can also put more gears in an automatic meaning that you get better performance and fuel economy. One downside to automatics though is that they tend to be expensive to fix, but that's really no different than any modern technology.

Some people find manuals fun, even I find them fun under certain conditions, and there's nothing wrong with that. At the same time though I can have fun in my automatic daily driver too under certain conditions. Fun is what you make of it.

As for price and weight, many new cars don't even come with a manual so it's hard to even compare apples to apples now days. But with control? I'm in no less control of my car with its automatic, I can still select a gear if I need too and my car doesn't go out-of-control, spinning wildly everytime I drive it. And mastering something difficult? I don't think driving a manual is really all that hard, I mean I taught my girlfriend in a parking lot in probably an hour. Getting good with it though is like everything with driving, it just takes time and practice.
 
Say whatever you like praising automatics, they'll always be inferior in multiple ways.
Price
Weight
Control
Mastering something difficult (instead of asking it be done for you)

Maybe name some cons in your praise too.

Price - My RSX Type S manual was the most expensive version of the car. The automatics were cheaper. The RSX also came in a 5-speed manual which was... a significantly worse option. In fact, often it seems you pay a premium over automatics for a good manual.

Often times it seems that we compare the top of the line manuals against the cheapo automatics for performance, and then compare the bottom of the line manual against the automatics for price. Can't have it both ways.

Another thing about price is maintenance. I've never had to replace anything on an automatic except brake transmission (what was I thinking?) fluid. I've spent a LOT of money replacing a clutch that was damaged by a previous owner. It seems to me that good manual transmissions cost more up front, and cost more to maintain. I will grant you that when something serious goes wrong with an auto, it costs more. But I've never had that happen.

Weight

Give me a break. If you're even considering an automatic in the car this is a total non-factor. If that weight matters to you, there is no way you'd possibly consider an automatic (for completely unrelated reasons).

Control

Much is made of this and a lot of it is pointless. 99% of the time you're driving you don't need control over the transmission, the built-in logic of the automatic serves you perfectly. The other 1% of the time a good manumatic mode (which can be found in econocars these days) will get your car downshifting nearly as fast as you'd do the three-pedal dance yourself. You just notice the lag more because you're not busy playing with your feet.

Mastering something difficult (instead of asking it be done for you)

This is a con. Mastering something difficult is not a reason to do something. It would be extremely difficult to learn and recite every line to Adam Sandler's "Jack and Jill". Part of the challenge would be to stop vomiting while learning the lines. Yet just because this is difficult, doesn't mean it is a worthwhile pursuit.
 
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You have beef against Camry's?

Against Camry's what? Who is Camry and what do they possess?...

And no, no particular beef. I wouldn't call a Camry "epic" though, and of all cars on which to look forward to driving stick, a floppy Japanese sedan wouldn't be high up my list.

Getting a manual Camry and proclaiming your love for manuals just seems like one of those "for the sake of having a manual" vehicles. Like it'll somehow make it a joyful experience to drive just because it's a manual. It's a bit like claiming your 400-lb girlfriend is better with lipstick. It doesn't really get to the root of the issue and it's not the best way of expressing the benefits of lipstick.
 
homeforsummer
Against Camry's what? Who is Camry and what do they possess?...

And no, no particular beef. I wouldn't call a Camry "epic" though, and of all cars on which to look forward to driving stick, a floppy Japanese sedan wouldn't be high up my list.

Getting a manual Camry and proclaiming your love for manuals just seems like one of those "for the sake of having a manual" vehicles. Like it'll somehow make it a joyful experience to drive just because it's a manual. It's a bit like claiming your 400-lb girlfriend is better with lipstick. It doesn't really get to the root of the issue and it's not the best way of expressing the benefits of lipstick.

No I didn't mean Camry epic. The manual transmission is epic. Lol. Toyota have some nice cars out now. If cars in the future have no manuals. Then I would just buy old cars.
 
Getting a manual Camry and proclaiming your love for manuals just seems like one of those "for the sake of having a manual" vehicles. Like it'll somehow make it a joyful experience to drive just because it's a manual. It's a bit like claiming your 400-lb girlfriend is better with lipstick. It doesn't really get to the root of the issue and it's not the best way of expressing the benefits of lipstick.

Any car is more fun and enjoyable to drive with 3 pedals. My current car is just a run of the mill G20 (Primera) but somehow is way more fun then the automatic column shifter I used to have. And thats with about 20-25% less power and torque and 100k more miles on the odometer. Somehow it just feels faster and more responsive even though I know its not.
 
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