Save the Manuals!

[Clark]

Any car is more fun and enjoyable to drive with 3 pedals..

Because a manual 'box in this car would be much better.

 

[Jet Badger]

It'd definitely make the driving more interesting. If that's what you're looking for in a Rolls...

 

[homeforsummer]

Any car is more fun and enjoyable to drive with 3 pedals. My current car is just a run of the mill G20 (Primera) but somehow is way more fun then the automatic column shifter I used to have. And thats with about 20-25% less power and torque and 100k more miles on the odometer. Somehow it just feels faster and more responsive even though I know its not.

There are two parts to your post, and the second part explains why the first part is wrong.

"Any car is more fun and enjoyable to drive with 3 pedals"

Simply not true. I've driven more than a few cars where the manual is mushy and unresponsive (or obstinate and obstructive), yet the automatic is excellent. Virtually any Mercedes-Benz comes to mind - they're just not very good at making manual transmissions, and they're very, very good at doing autos. And I've driven some cars, only available with a manual, where I've cried out for an auto because the manual is so bad.

What you're describing is exactly the attitude I was taking the mick out of above - the automatic assumption that anything is better with three pedals, no matter how dire the car being discussed.

However, you're presumably basing your view on a fairly narrow field of experience. To my knowledge, Primeras have decent manual gearshifts. I don't know what your last, column-shift auto was, but a light-ish sedan with a decent manual will naturally feel a bit more peppy than a big 'ol barge with a column shift. In this one situation it might very well be true that three pedals improve the experience, but it can't be used to illustrate a wider point.

If cars in the future have no manuals. Then I would just buy old cars.

I do like this viewpoint 👍 I wouldn't be completely sad if manuals died tomorrow, since there are plenty of great old ones around still. Nobody is taking away the old Miatas or chrome open-gated Ferraris.

Stick shifts in many modern cars feel a bit out of place anyway. You're driving these high-tech vehicles with electric everything, yet clinging on to an archaic lever sprouting from the centre console. In most cars it even looks a bit weird just to see that stick sitting there.

 

[phil bell]

This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to a pro-manual transmission thread and start arguing about the superiority of DCT's and Automatics?
Yes by most quantifiable measures they are better, but just drive what you prefer and stfu. If people prefer a manual, let em.👍

 

[Joey D]

This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to a pro-manual transmission thread and start arguing about the superiority of DCT's and Automatics?
Yes by most quantifiable measures they are better, but just drive what you prefer and stfu. If people prefer a manual, let em.👍

The topic is "save the manuals" and there are some of us who don't believe they should be saved for whatever reason. It's just a discussion and it's better than someone just saying "manuals suck, autos rule" or vice versa. I don't see why a civilized discussion of the topic at hand is bad.

 

[homeforsummer]

This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to a pro-manual transmission thread and start arguing about the superiority of DCT's and Automatics?

"This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to an internet forum and start asking why people are discussing things?"

Yes by most quantifiable measures they are better, but just drive what you prefer and stfu. If people prefer a manual, let em.👍

Had you read any of the above posts rather than spewing dross all over the page, you might have noticed many of us like driving both manuals and autos. But we also like talking about their relative merits. And if you don't like that, you can probably take your own advice and "stfu".

 

[Tornado]

This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to a pro-manual transmission thread and start arguing about the superiority of DCT's and Automatics?

It'd probably help if the some of the pro-manual arguments in the pro-manual thread weren't so dogmatic.

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

I'll take an auto over a manual in city traffic. 13 gears is way to much shifting to get to highway speeds :/

But I've always driven a stick shift. Actually, my 05 F150 is the first vehicle I've ever owned that was an auto. I hate it.

 

[phil bell]

"This is getting stupid, what kind of person(s) come to an internet forum and start asking why people are discussing things?"

Had you read any of the above posts rather than spewing dross all over the page, you might have noticed many of us like driving both manuals and autos. But we also like talking about their relative merits. And if you don't like that, you can probably take your own advice and "stfu".

This thread was not intended for that purpose, read the OP. This thread was created to promote the manual in whatever way one can...

I have read the above posts hence why I say this. The merits of transmission choices are clear, discussing them is largely pointless as manuals vs auto/DCT choice is largely driven by car type/ driver preference anyway.

It's only common knowledge that DCT/Autos are technically superior after all.

And talk about spewing dross... Wasting my time replying to such individuals who attack others for no good reason... Bye.

 

[phil bell]

It'd probably help if the some of the pro-manual arguments in the pro-manual thread weren't so dogmatic.

Check your quote man, you're quoting the other guy.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

It'd probably help if the some of the pro-manual arguments in the pro-manual thread weren't so dogmatic.

Yes, I agree here. I am guilty of such dogmatism, but I realise that some people prefer automatic transmissions, and that both DCTs and Automatics have a place in the automotive world. This thread is about helping convince people that manuals also have a place in new cars, even if they don't occupy a big market segment. Some of us want to get a manual transmission on a car like, say, the new Porsche GT3. It would be nice if one was offered.

 

[Danoff]

This thread was not intended for that purpose, read the OP. This thread was created to promote the manual in whatever way one can...

It's a thread on an internet discussion forum. There will be discussion. Trying to ban people who don't agree with you from an internet forum thread is... absurd.

Check your quote man, you're quoting the other guy.

Huh?

 

[CSLACR]

Thanks for the reminder guys.

Post about cars, get a response comparing trucks to cars.
Post anything and it usually gets argued in a context unrelated.

I would love to see the price listings and specifications for these more expensive manuals

Every single car I've ever looked at is more expensive as an automatic. Every single one.

 

[Danoff]

Every single car I've ever looked at is more expensive as an automatic. Every single one.

Go look at the 2013 Acura TSX and then you'll never be able to make that statement again for the rest of your life.


(Also the TL, also every single Acura Type-S that I know of)

Edit: Ok just any Acura basically. You want a manual, your price goes up.

For the RSX it was if you want a good manual the price goes up. I believe the same is true for the current Civic.

 

[Joey D]

Yes, I agree here. I am guilty of such dogmatism, but I realise that some people prefer automatic transmissions, and that both DCTs and Automatics have a place in the automotive world. This thread is about helping convince people that manuals also have a place in new cars, even if they don't occupy a big market segment. Some of us want to get a manual transmission on a car like, say, the new Porsche GT3. It would be nice if one was offered.

Manual only have a place in new cars if new car buyers want them, which given the current options lists on cars, they don't. And I'm sure lots of people want a manual transmission on the GT3, but those same people probably can't even begin to afford one, whereas the people who are putting up the money for one want the transmission that will give them better performance, which is the PDK.

One example of this working is with the Ford Focus. The 2012 models only offered a manual on the poverty spec model and the higher ranges like the SEL and Titanium only offered the double-clutch. Consumers wanted a manual in higher spec models and Ford saw they were missing out on a piece of the market share, so for the 2013 models you could get a manual in every model of the Focus.

Another thing with the Focus is that the manual and automatic cost the same, although with the manual you're getting one less gear than the double-clutch.

As I've mentioned before, if you want to save the manual, buy a new car with a manual. But since a majority of enthusiasts don't buy new cars for the most part, that point is kind of lost. Buying a car from the 80's or 90's doesn't save anything other than some of your own money.

As for the dogmatic arguments put forth by manual-purist, they are ridiculous. Saying things like "no car can be fun with an automatic", "automatics are for lazy people", "anything with a manual is always better", "automatics give you no control" and so-on just make you sound like an ignorant automotive enthusiast. A good vehicle is a good vehicle, regardless of the options and equipment. Saying things like "I think manuals are more fun" or "I tend to prefer manuals in car because I enjoy them more" doesn't make you sound like an ignorant automotive enthusiast. We all have preferences with our cars and no one can really fault you for that.

 

[CSLACR]

Go look at the 2013 Acura TSX and then you'll never be able to make that statement again for the rest of your life.

(Also the TL, also every single Acura Type-S that I know of)

Edit: Ok just any Acura basically. You want a manual, your price goes up.

For the RSX it was if you want a good manual the price goes up. I believe the same is true for the current Civic.

So a single brand changes the other 50-100 in existence?

You're kidding....

 

[ZohsixGT5]

I'm looking at a new car for a DD right now, a 2013 Subaru XV Crosstek. I want a manual, navi, an auto dimming mirror, and that's pretty much it as far as accessories go. So saturday I started my search, and called around to all the Subaru dealers to see if they had a manual Crosstek in stock for a test drive. NO dealer in GA has one. I was astonished. There is no extra charge for the CVT, so I guess they only plan on selling autos. I would hate to test drive the CVT, then purchase a manual, have it shipped, only to find out I don't like the way it feels. I guess this how it's going to work these days. The manual is going away.

 

[Joey D]

So a single brand changes the other 50-100 in existence?

You're kidding....

To be fair, you did ask for an example of a car that has a more expensive manual option than an automatic. You didn't say you wanted a list of every single one.

 

[Danoff]

So a single brand changes the other 50-100 in existence?

You're kidding....

Ah, what a wonderful debate trick - the strawman.

You: "There are no prime numbers between 1 and 10 (inclusive)."
Me: "What about the number 1?"
You: "So just because there is one means that all numbers between 1 and 10 are prime?"

 

[McLaren]

And talk about spewing dross... Wasting my time replying to such individuals who attack others for no good reason... Bye.

This coming from an individual who came into the thread telling people to stfu & enjoy what they want.

Thanks for the reminder guys.

Post about cars, get a response comparing trucks to cars.
Post anything and it usually gets argued in a context unrelated.

I would love to see the price listings and specifications for these more expensive manuals

Every single car I've ever looked at is more expensive as an automatic. Every single one.

Oh yes, because you have looked at every single car on the market.

During the era when Lamborghini & Ferrari started to get rid of manuals altogether, they decided to swap the options around. 90%+ of the cars were being ordered with E-Gear/F1 SuperFast transmissions, thus nearly the entire production line was set up to accommodate these transmissions. However, when you had that 1 rare order with a manual, both manufacturers had to build that transmission & re-engineer the rear ends for them. Seeing as that adds production time to the car, both manufacturers offset those costs by making the manual gearboxes more expensive.

And that goes for any other car that requires a manual-equipped transmission to fall under the category of special order.

 

[Tornado]

For the RSX it was if you want a good manual the price goes up. I believe the same is true for the current Civic.

I'm curious. Was the base transmission a 5 speed and the optional one a 6 speed or something to that effect?

 

[niky]

For many mass market cars, manual is still the cheaper option... But anything above mass market compact-midsize, they start either becoming more expensive or the same price as the auto. Economies of scale mean that an auto that 99% of your buyers want will cost you less to sell than a manual that 1% of your buyers want.

It's like buying cars with no AC and no sound deadening. Stripping a car of weight almost always makes it more fun to drive, but if nobody wants to buy such a car, it won't bemade, or it will be made but sold as a special track edition for a premium.

 

[CSLACR]

Ah, what a wonderful debate trick - the strawman.

You: "There are no prime numbers between 1 and 10 (inclusive)."
Me: "What about the number 1?"
You: "So just because there is one means that all numbers between 1 and 10 are prime?"

Nope, just that it usually is. That was all my point was at the beginning. Never said I looked at every car ever.

I ki d of expected it to turn the way of calling manuals more expensive because they've become rare.
While technically true, manuals are in fact cheaper to build in the same quantity. I would be willing to bet those Acura's are no exception.

 

[phil bell]

It's a thread on an internet discussion forum. There will be discussion. Trying to ban people who don't agree with you from an internet forum thread is... absurd.

You should read my post. I've outlined the reasons, it's not trying to ban something I dislike.

This coming from an individual who came into the thread telling people to stfu & enjoy what they want.

Oh yes, because you have looked at every single car on the market.

During the era when Lamborghini & Ferrari started to get rid of manuals altogether, they decided to swap the options around. 90%+ of the cars were being ordered with E-Gear/F1 SuperFast transmissions, thus nearly the entire production line was set up to accommodate these transmissions. However, when you had that 1 rare order with a manual, both manufacturers had to build that transmission & re-engineer the rear ends for them. Seeing as that adds production time to the car, both manufacturers offset those costs by making the manual gearboxes more expensive.

And that goes for any other car that requires a manual-equipped transmission to fall under the category of special order.

Sorry, your point? I said drive what you want. And no I have not studied every car on the market, but some suit manuals more than others, no?...

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Okay people, can we be a bit more civilised and understanding of one another? I know that this is an issue we're all passionate about, but please take some time to consider everyone's argument before you post, and make your posts respectful and logical. I'm tired of stopping by here and seeing dogmatic arguments and lack of respect. If someone doesn't understand what you're saying, say it again, rather than abusing them. If it continues, I'll consider closing the thread.

 

[homeforsummer]

Thanks for the reminder guys.

Post about cars, get a response comparing trucks to cars.
Post anything and it usually gets argued in a context unrelated.

I would love to see the price listings and specifications for these more expensive manuals

Every single car I've ever looked at is more expensive as an automatic. Every single one.

I note you've not really addressed the responses to the other points you raised. Weight? Control? Mastering something difficult?

This thread was not intended for that purpose, read the OP. This thread was created to promote the manual in whatever way one can...

I have read the above posts hence why I say this. The merits of transmission choices are clear, discussing them is largely pointless as manuals vs auto/DCT choice is largely driven by car type/ driver preference anyway.

It's only common knowledge that DCT/Autos are technically superior after all.

And talk about spewing dross... Wasting my time replying to such individuals who attack others for no good reason... Bye.

This is a forum.

On forums we discuss things.

If you don't like discussing things, you probably shouldn't be on a forum.

If you don't like watching others discuss things, you probably shouldn't be on a forum.

Nobody is stopping anyone "promoting manuals in whatever way they can". That is still happening in this thread. Your first comment was entirely moot - it was complaining about discussion on a discussion forum, on the basis that the thread should be about promoting manuals, which it already is. So yes, whichever way you spin it, it was dross.

 

[phil bell]

I note you've not really addressed the responses to the other points you raised. Weight? Control? Mastering something difficult?

This is a forum.

On forums we discuss things.

If you don't like discussing things, you probably shouldn't be on a forum.

If you don't like watching others discuss things, you probably shouldn't be on a forum.

Nobody is stopping anyone "promoting manuals in whatever way they can". That is still happening in this thread. Your first comment was entirely moot - it was complaining about discussion on a discussion forum, on the basis that the thread should be about promoting manuals, which it already is. So yes, whichever way you spin it, it was dross.

I'm not stopping the discussion nor was my initial post directed towards you. If someone wants to come to a "save the manuals" thread and lord it over about automatics and how all manuals should die however (which I saw a few posts/pages/whatever back, in fairness I should have quoted it for a more accurate picture) then it's out of line don't you think?

Yes the technical superiority of autos is never in question, but when one says manuals shouldn't exist in all cars and should be killed entirely (again on a "save the manuals thread") then it's not right, basically it's like it's like going to a BMW support thread and saying they should all die and Mercs are superior. It goes against the purpose of the thread.

Again not saying its you, but someone else a few posts back.

That is my take on it.

 

[McLaren]

The only time people have "lorded over automatics" in this thread is usually in response to someone posting about how superior manuals are or that you can't be a true car guy without a manual or that only manuals are more fun.

 

[Danoff]

I'm curious. Was the base transmission a 5 speed and the optional one a 6 speed or something to that effect?

Yes that's correct. The RSX non-Type-S was sold with a 5 speed manual and automatic. The Type S was 6 speed manual only.

The Type-S had a number of upgrades over the base. Improved suspension, horsepower, increased rev limit, type-S decals, type-S floormats, and of course the 6-speed manual.

I got the Type-S because I wanted the 6-speed manual. The base model actually had slightly more low-end torque, which I cared about more than the mild horsepower increase for the S - most of which was only available above 6k rpm (which I knew I'd rarely visit).

The 6 speed manual was a MASSIVE upgrade over the 5 speed. If I'd gotten a base model RSX I'd have gone for the automatic. In fact, I'd be surprised if they actually sold very many base model manuals. Most people interested in a manual, I'd guess, went for the Type-S.

So even though technically the manual isn't more expensive in this example (I don't think it was cheaper either), practically it is more expensive. Because practically speaking when you really care about the difference between manual and automatic, you really care about the difference between a good manual and a not-so-good one.

 

[BongRipz]

There are two parts to your post, and the second part explains why the first part is wrong.

"Any car is more fun and enjoyable to drive with 3 pedals"

Simply not true. I've driven more than a few cars where the manual is mushy and unresponsive (or obstinate and obstructive), yet the automatic is excellent. Virtually any Mercedes-Benz comes to mind - they're just not very good at making manual transmissions, and they're very, very good at doing autos. And I've driven some cars, only available with a manual, where I've cried out for an auto because the manual is so bad.

What you're describing is exactly the attitude I was taking the mick out of above - the automatic assumption that anything is better with three pedals, no matter how dire the car being discussed.

However, you're presumably basing your view on a fairly narrow field of experience. To my knowledge, Primeras have decent manual gearshifts. I don't know what your last, column-shift auto was, but a light-ish sedan with a decent manual will naturally feel a bit more peppy than a big 'ol barge with a column shift. In this one situation it might very well be true that three pedals improve the experience, but it can't be used to illustrate a wider point.

You're right I shouldn't have been so broad in my statement since it takes most of the meaning away. I should have said "Most cars are more enjoyable to drive with a clutch". I have driven some manuals that were a handful to drive. The first one that comes to mind was my Dad's truck when I was a kid. The clutch was like a rock and the syncros were on their way out. There was also my friends Kia Rio whos clutch would slip while fully engaged pretty much from the factory.

And you're right to say it appears I'm basing my views on narrow experience since I listed none for the sake of keeping things simple. I've owned 7 cars actually, the last 2 being the Infiniti (primera) and the Cutlass. The Infiniti is the only manual I've owned but I've driven several from all sides of the spectrum. My previous car was by no means a monster but a lightweight base 87 olds Ciera coupe with a 3.8l "high output" 6 cyl defiantly gets sleeper status considering the torque it puts out and its unassuming exterior. It was a dog in the corners due to the soft suspension and body roll but it was actually lighter then the Primera and faster in a straight line.

To me theres just something about doing things myself that appeals to me so much. I think thats the real appeal to a manual. Maybe I dont always make the best gear choice for every situation like an automatic but the choice is always mine and it seems to always work out in the end.