Save the Manuals!

[1stlsx]

If we're talking about the NA Chevy Cruze, it's improved, based on my last two rentals. I'd say it's about a quarter to a half second in gear acceptance, which is on par with most cars. The TC must be disabled for even remotely spirited driving (not even all-out hoonage), which kind of tells the car it's okay to let the driver make some decisions, from my unofficial testing.

My mom actually owns an NA base Chevy Cruze and I've logged it and it takes .7-1.2 seconds on most up shifts, downshifts are horrendous too....

 

[Pupik]

^ Can't be that bad...I'd never rent a second time. I mean, that's GT4-interpretation-of-a-Peugeot-905-bad.

Seemed to respond to steep hills and hold a chosen gear without much fuss, despite the buzzy, underpowered motor.

 

[Wolfe]

The clutch (the device, rather than the pedal) is more than just a disc that makes changing gears by yourself possible. It's a control device - specifically a control device that governs how the power (okay, okay... torque) from the engine reaches the wheels.

Precisely like I said earlier. 👍 It's a critical link between your right foot and where the drive wheels meet the road.

I find it fascinating that so many people in this thread are so much more interested in the act of driving when they have a stick and an extra pedal to play with.

When I'm playing piano, I find it much more interesting to use the sustain pedal and play with both hands than simply using my right hand to play along to accompaniment. I'm still playing music either way and I can play the same songs with all parts and tones intact, but it's more fulfilling/interesting/engaging/enjoyable to get my whole body involved. I admit that certain songs may be easier to play with one hand + accompaniment, but that ultimately comes down to lack of practice. Playing with one hand may also enable me to eat a sandwich at the same time, but if I'm sitting at the piano, I'm there to play music, not to do other things. Other benefits of playing without accompaniment include being able to skip to another part of a song if I want to, and to improvise a new melody or song myself.

Do you find that fascinating?

 

[Tornado]

I don't see any merits of a manual over a DCT worth discussing.

- You can get it rolling if the battery dies
- You can skip gears if you find yourself wanting to
- You have an extra lever and pedal to keep you entertained while you drive.
- It costs less than a DCT for now

I am not impressed.

I'm not seeing how this doesn't just lend credence to the quote you were presumably trying to rebut.

 

[Danoff]

There's one and we've discussed it before.

The clutch (the device, rather than the pedal) is more than just a disc that makes changing gears by yourself possible. It's a control device - specifically a control device that governs how the power (okay, okay... torque) from the engine reaches the wheels.

The clutch pedal itself is an analogue input device to control the clutch. To be wholly fair, most drivers don't use it as one - they mash the pedal down, slam it into gear and hoof straight off it, without any consideration of continuity of power (okay, okay... torque) delivery and the comfort of their passengers, as you've noted - but it is one and used properly it's nothing but beneficial. I'd even go as far as saying it's a safety device - though that depends on circumstances.

It's a hindrance to outright pace in sports driving - a DCT and even an auto (let's disregard typical auto gear ratios) can get from gear to gear faster than someone rowing it themselves - and there's been so many TLGPs won and lost by a boneheaded clutch drag or gearchange, but it is a useful additional tool for driving over DCT, CVT or auto.


I'll add here that I've not driven many autos or DCTs compared to manuals. The list is quite small - Jaguar XJ6, Jaguar S-Type R and Mazda Xedos 9 (Millenia) Miller in the autos, Nissan GT-R for the DCT and Nissan 370Z for auto with flappy paddles. The only direct comparison I can make is the 370Z, because I've also driven a manual. I'll say I flubbed my very first gearchange in the manual 370Z - being on the left of the car didn't help - while that never happened in the flappy auto, but thereafter the clutch helped getting off the line in the adverse weather conditions compared to the flappy auto. Both cars had disabled (on purpose) traction control systems

Interesting that you would say the clutch helps in this scenario, because I've found that the clutch can be a hindrance when it comes to smooth power delivery, especially when you want to achieve extreme slow speeds. Starting in snow, for example, where you might want spin your wheels very slowly - the clutch certainly allows you to do that, but it requires that you burn your clutch the entire time you want to move your wheels slowly. You can't let the clutch out fully until you've reached a minimum speed - and that means riding a clutch that wasn't really designed to be ridden while you're moving at less than that speed.

Obviously you can get either a manual or automatic out of the mud or snow. Having the option to hold 1st gear can be good, but you have that in an automatic or DCT as well. In the end, you end up doing more damage to your manual than an auto. I don't know how the DCT handles that scenario - I've never driven a DCT in anything but ideal conditions.

For smooth gear shifting, I prefer an automatic over even a very talented manual driver. For applying the power slowly, I prefer an automatic - especially in reverse.

When I'm playing piano, I find it much more interesting to use the sustain pedal and play with both hands than simply using my right hand to play along to accompaniment. I'm still playing music either way and I can play the same songs with all parts and tones intact, but it's more fulfilling/interesting/engaging/enjoyable to get my whole body involved.

Do your use your left foot when playing the piano? Didn't think so. You're just as involved playing the piano as driving an automatic. You'd have done better to say drums which require both feet.

(If you're left handed and use your left foot, pretend I said "both feet")

I admit that certain songs may be easier to play with one hand + accompaniment, but that ultimately comes down to lack of practice. Playing with one hand may also enable me to eat a sandwich at the same time, but if I'm sitting at the piano, I'm there to play music, not to do other things. Other benefits of playing without accompaniment include being able to skip to another part of a song if I want to, and to improvise a new melody or song myself.

Actually I think the piano analogy fits my argument better than yours. I assume you play electric so that you can also control the various sounds that the piano creates, and you use the bending device so that you can slide from one note to another. Your piano of choice probably has as many controls as you can possibly cram into a room:

I doubt it. You probably play something a little more like this:

Why? Because that's what you're used to, it's what you've romanticized, it's traditional. Interestingly enough, I do the same thing. But it's because I don't improvise or create art with the piano, I recite art that has already been created.

With the guitar I play a little differently, and I have no problem having some aspects of guitar playing automated for me. Plenty of distortion effects that I could create myself but why bother when I have a pedal that can do that.

I'm not seeing how this doesn't just lend credence to the quote you were presumably trying to rebut.

I was pointing out the manual > DCT arguments that I have not rebutted and concluding that it was not significant for the massive benefits of DCT (speed, convenience, accuracy).

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Interesting that you would say the clutch helps in this scenario, because I've found that the clutch can be a hindrance when it comes to smooth power delivery, especially when you want to achieve extreme slow speeds. Starting in snow, for example, where you might want spin your wheels very slowly - the clutch certainly allows you to do that, but it requires that you burn your clutch the entire time you want to move your wheels slowly. You can't let the clutch out fully until you've reached a minimum speed - and that means riding a clutch that wasn't really designed to be ridden while you're moving at less than that speed.

[snip]

For smooth gear shifting, I prefer an automatic over even a very talented manual driver. For applying the power slowly, I prefer an automatic - especially in reverse.

The minimum speed to let the clutch out is <1mph. I mean we're talking next to no throttle input and letting off the clutch in less than a second. If you're on a flat road, you don't even need to touch the throttle or "slip" the clutch. Smoothly release the pedal and off you go!

You can do the same even with performance flywheels and clutches. I actually think these mods make a smoother shifting car.

I'm attempted to rent a Ford Fusion and hang a ping-pong ball from the rear view mirror, do the same in my M3, and record the drive just to show you manuals are smoother so long as the driver is smooth. But even if I did that you'd complain that the string wasn't to your spec, I used the wrong brand ball, or some other sleight to skew the recording. I can shift a manual transmission car smoother, or at least as smooth, as any other automatic transmission car on the road. It's not hard...about as difficult as standing on 1 foot. Little subconscious inputs & muscle memory is all you need regardless of the vehicle or weather conditions.

Based on what you've written; you may not be able drive a stick smoothly and/or well. Under no circumstance does one need to "ride" the clutch in order to move forward in a normal non-racing kinda way. Riding the clutch until it starts to stink is not how they're designed to be used and will drastically shorten their life. FWIW; I've owned a car with over 250k on the clock and it still had the original clutch...didn't slip either. Some can't do that, I know. But don't delude yourself into thinking that no one can drive stick well and a driver controlled clutch is a hinderance to driving slowly.

It's sorta like water skiing. No one can really "teach" you how to do it, you just have to figure it out on your own. And once you do have that "a-ha!" moment, it'll be second nature from then on out. Driving stick is much like that.

 

[Danoff]

The minimum speed to let the clutch out is <1mph.

The minimum speed in an automatic is arbitrary.

I mean we're talking next to no throttle input and letting off the clutch in less than a second. If you're on a flat road, you don't even need to touch the throttle or "slip" the clutch. Smoothly release the pedal and off you go!

I'm well aware. This doesn't affect anything I wrote.

I'm attempted to rent a Ford Fusion and hang a ping-pong ball from the rear view mirror, do the same in my M3, and record the drive just to show you manuals are smoother so long as the driver is smooth.

Why would you not get an automatic M3 to do that? Also, do it for 1 minute and you might win. Do it for 5 minutes and you'll lose.

Based on what you've written; you may not be able drive a stick smoothly and/or well.

Based on your misinterpretation of what I wrote yes. See below.

Under no circumstance does one need to "ride" the clutch in order to move forward in a normal non-racing kinda way.

Unless you're stuck in the mud or snow - which is what I was talking about. In which case suddenly my post makes sense and I'm not longer clueless about driving a stick.

I've owned a car with over 250k on the clock and it still had the original clutch...didn't slip either. Some can't do that, I know. But don't delude yourself into thinking that no one can drive stick well and a driver controlled clutch is a hinderance to driving slowly.

I want you to cover 10 feet of driving distance with your car in 10 minutes SMOOTHLY, NO STOPPING, without using up your clutch more in a manual than an automatic.

See? Suddenly I'm not a raving lunatic.

It's sorta like water skiing. No one can really "teach" you how to do it, you just have to figure it out on your own. And once you do have that "a-ha!" moment, it'll be second nature from then on out. Driving stick is much like that.

I know how to drive a stick. It is second nature to me. Stop making assumptions.

Edit:

I will readily admit that there are techniques for mud/snow that are possible in a manual that are not really possible in an automatic. Those are fairly specialized techniques though that can still be approximated with an automatic.

On the topic of "clutch as an important tool", I'm claiming that those cases are highly specialized and not really important. Definitely worth giving up for the many obvious benefits of a DCT (speed, convenience, accuracy). During my time owning manual transmissions I have found myself more likely to injure my left leg in such a way as to make shifting impossible than to need the clutch to get out of a jam.

 

[sammo85]

I still double D clutch even in my modern day cars, my mate's half the time don't even realise I've changed gear. But it makes it so smooth mainly when driving fast it stops any jolting and keeps the car well balanced. Some would say not necessary but it works perfectly for me, worth a try but don't short cut as you'll just keep grinding your gears.

 

[Danoff]

I still double D clutch even in my modern day cars, my mate's half the time don't even realise I've changed gear. But it makes it so smooth mainly when driving fast it stops any jolting and keeps the car well balanced. Some would say not necessary but it works perfectly for me, worth a try but don't short cut as you'll just keep grinding your gears.

How often do you botch it? Once a week? Once a drive? By "botch" I mean cause a minor lurch - not even something gross like going to the wrong gear or grinding gears.

 

[sammo85]

How often do you botch it? Once a week? Once a drive? By "botch" I mean cause a minor lurch - not even something gross like going to the wrong gear or grinding gears.

I will be totally honest and say that I pretty much always get it right, I also have a very high performance v8 race car with a mcloud race box, clutch us extremely heavy so you can't afford to make mistakes with it else it would blow with the amount of power going through.

When I first started driving though it took a while to get right, but your feet then work in a sequence, I don't even think about it, its my natural way of driving.

 

[Danoff]

Well you're clearly a more sophisticated than any manual transmission driver I have ever met or ridden with, and I know/ride with some folks who are pretty serious with a fair bit of track experience.

 

[sammo85]

Well you're clearly a more sophisticated than any manual transmission driver I have ever met or ridden with, and I know/ride with some folks who are pretty serious with a fair bit of track experience.

I don't do much racing just enjoy driving, and I have an automatic Mercedes E class which I love, but then can't wait to get back into the old car which frightens me to death but is also so much fun to drive. The funny thing is though the old girl won't go into 1st unless you hit the revs perfectly, you just get used to how your car works best. More people should learn to Double D as it teaches you mechanical sympathy!

 

[nobuffalo]

I want you to cover 10 feet of driving distance with your car in 10 minutes SMOOTHLY, NO STOPPING, without using up your clutch more in a manual than an automatic.

See? Suddenly I'm not a raving lunatic.

In what real life scenario would you even need to do that? You're still gonna have to modulate the brake in an automatic and I think you'd find it damn difficult to move 1ft per minute in an automatic SMOOTHLY WITHOUT STOPPING.

Here is a quick example of how slow you can move in a manual, and that's going uphill on an uneven surface in a car I've driven maybe 40 miles, maybe. It's also something I have "never" really practiced, yet I can get in and do it pretty well. At those RPMs I don't think the clutch is being burned as much as you think it is, I feel like you exaggerate the difficulty of some of these things in a manual.

 

[Danoff]

In what real life scenario would you even need to do that?

Getting out of the snow or mud, as previously mentioned. You need to rotate the wheels slowly. Now, you do need to stop (probably) when getting out of the snow or mud, but that doesn't affect anything. I was trying to make my point as obvious as possible so I strayed ever so slightly from the scenario I was presenting.

You're still gonna have to modulate the brake in an automatic and I think you'd find it damn difficult to move 1ft per minute in an automatic SMOOTHLY WITHOUT STOPPING.

Doesn't increase wear on the brake significantly.

Here is a quick example of how slow you can move in a manual, and that's going uphill on an uneven surface in a car I've driven maybe 40 miles, maybe. It's also something I have "never" really practiced, yet I can get in and do it pretty well. At those RPMs I don't think the clutch is being burned as much as you think it is, I feel like you exaggerate the difficulty of some of these things in a manual.,

I never said it was difficult. I said it wears the clutch more - and the reason I said that was because slippery conditions were identified as a place where manual offers a benefit over DCT. I then dragged the conversation to automatics, and snow, and now it is beginning to not resemble where it started.

Tell me you didn't film that for me. How much did that just wear on your clutch? The equivalent of 500 starts from stop? 1000?

 

[Perfect Balance]

I should mention the only auto transmissions worth a damn and can match a good manual with a good driver in an all out 100% driving situation is a good DCT or similar type of transmission with the ability to properly rev match and shift extremely quickly.

Unfortunately, these transmissions can't move extremely slowly either, they are just like a regular manual in that sense, they just do it for you, and not as smoothly either, since they aren't programmed to slip the clutch as much as you could in a manual, they attempt to replicate a typical slushbox in their movement, but as soon as you step on the brakes they drop back into neutral immediately, at least at extremely low speeds.

So really, the only transmissions that can do that well are slushbox torque converter transmissions. Which is fine too, but they don't do the "driving at the limits of the tires and I need to drop a gear smoothly and quickly" part well at all.

Like I've said since the beginning of this thread. I think it's definitely possible to make something incredible like that, and I have no issues with manuals going away if there is an auto that can do it better than me in all situations, but until then, please let me do it myself.

 

[Danoff]

I should mention the only auto transmissions worth a damn and can match a good manual with a good driver in an all out 100% driving situation is a good DCT or similar type of transmission with the ability to properly rev match and shift extremely quickly.

Unfortunately, these transmissions can't move extremely slowly either, they are just like a regular manual in that sense, they just do it for you, and not as smoothly either, since they aren't programmed to slip the clutch as much as you could in a manual, they attempt to replicate a typical slushbox in their movement, but as soon as you step on the brakes they drop back into neutral immediately, at least at extremely low speeds.

Well I did say that I didn't know what DCTs do in extreme slow speeds or low traction. So perhaps slippery or stuck conditions need to go on my list in favor of manual transmissions (over DCT).

 

[Joey D]

Obviously you can get either a manual or automatic out of the mud or snow. Having the option to hold 1st gear can be good, but you have that in an automatic or DCT as well. In the end, you end up doing more damage to your manual than an auto. I don't know how the DCT handles that scenario - I've never driven a DCT in anything but ideal conditions.

The DCT in my car worked fine when I got stuck in the snow, I just kept it in first, turned the traction control off and just gave it a bit of gas until my tires caught and I pulled myself out. Then I just went and bought snow tires and haven't worried about it since

I know a few guys on the Focus forums, who are idiots, just turned everything off and stomped on the gas to get their cars unstuck from some mud. The transmission ended up going into safe mode before it did any damage and they had to let it cool down before it would unlock and allow them to attempt getting the car unstuck without being stupid. I'd guess many of the DCT's are the same way and will go into some sort of safety mode before you do any damage to them.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well I did say that I didn't know what DCTs do in extreme slow speeds or low traction. So perhaps slippery or stuck conditions need to go on my list in favor of manual transmissions (over DCT).

Usually once you let off the throttle there's a second gap or so and then the transmission starts to engage the clutch until the car rolls like a typical automatic would if you release the brakes, but if you hit the brakes again they immediately release to keep the car from stalling, and the "not do anything for a second, then start to engage the clutch" process repeats all over again. You can't really rock a car back and forth as you would to get yourself unstuck out of some snow either because it simply doesn't respond quickly enough to engage and disengage the clutch in time with your throttle inputs.

It's been mentioned on Top Gear before, but these types of transmissions are extremely annoying in traffic jam situations. Depending on when you hit the throttle it could either rev freely or lurch forward, or one following the other. In fact, I know that traffic jams specifically were mentioned as a benefit of having an automatic transmission over a manual in every day life, but personally, the only "Autos" I've driven that were worth a damn in a hard driving situation were DCT transmissions, and I'd be far less annoyed with repeatedly slipping a clutch while moving slowly in traffic than I would dealing with the DCT in the same situation. On a track, there's no doubt in my mind a well programmed DCT would be quicker, but for the daily grind I still feel the conventional manual gives me the least amount of inconvenience and annoyances.

 

[nobuffalo]

Getting out of the snow or mud, as previously mentioned. You need to rotate the wheels slowly.

You can still rotate your tires slowly in a manual without really using up the clutch.

Doesn't increase wear on the brake significantly.

Doesn't wear clutch significantly.

I never said it was difficult. I said it wears the clutch more - and the reason I said that was because slippery conditions were identified as a place where manual offers a benefit over DCT. I then dragged the conversation to automatics, and snow, and now it is beginning to not resemble where it started.

I've never driven a DCT, I actually didn't know what one was until this thread. You said "See? Suddenly I'm not a raving lunatic." Perhaps I mistook that for you saying it was difficult.

Tell me you didn't film that for me. How much did that just wear on your clutch? The equivalent of 500 starts from stop? 1000?

I most certainly did, tell me you didn't make a thread teaching people how to pull the lever down in an automatic. I don't know but I'll confidently say it's not enough to matter.

You can't really rock a car back and forth as you would to get yourself unstuck out of some snow either because it simply doesn't respond quickly enough to engage and disengage the clutch in time with your throttle inputs.

The most useful thing I've experienced when actually stuck is being able to rock a car back and forth including going from 1st to reverse. Manual, no problem. Typical automatic, yeah probably not a good idea...

 

[Saf1]

Row, row, row your own... :nod:

 

[BrutherSuperior]

During my time owning manual transmissions I have found myself more likely to injure my left leg in such a way as to make shifting impossible than to need the clutch to get out of a jam.

How the hell do you hurt yourself depressing and releasing a clutch pedal? Driving in heels?

 

[nobuffalo]

I think the biggest problem many people have when driving a manual is using the accelerator as their primary means of input and the clutch secondary, If you pay attention to the clutches engagement point and it's load on the engine many cars can move from a dead stop smoothly without even touching the gas, albeit slowly. I've taught several people, who have already attempted to drive a manual and said that they couldn't, how to smoothly operate one by telling them to keep their foot completely off the gas and focus on how the car reacts when the clutch pedal is released. Once they have that figured out I'll introduce the gas.

My guess is the same people who burn the clutch or botch shifts are the same people who give the car gas before pulling the transmission out of park or slam it into reverse while still rolling forward. Using their left foot on the brake is also foreign to them. They're the same people who accelerate hard from a light and brake late for the next. These people put an unnecessary amount of wear on their vehicles whether it's a manual or automatic, they are probably just as likely to replace a clutch as they are a whole automatic transmission.

How the hell do you hurt yourself depressing and releasing a clutch pedal? Driving in heels?

I don't think he's saying he injures himself in the process of driving but that a injury to the left leg is more likely to affect him when driving a manual.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Here is a quick example of how slow you can move in a manual, and that's going uphill on an uneven surface in a car I've driven maybe 40 miles, maybe. It's also something I have "never" really practiced, yet I can get in and do it pretty well. At those RPMs I don't think the clutch is being burned as much as you think it is, I feel like you exaggerate the difficulty of some of these things in a manual.

Reminds of a car I used to have, it can do the same on 2nd gear from standing still on a slope, let go of the clutch slowly and it will crawl without touching the go pedal.

 

[Danoff]

How the hell do you hurt yourself depressing and releasing a clutch pedal? Driving in heels?

Wow, personal insults for no reason? I hurt my leg hyperextending my foot on some stairs... not driving the car. I have also injured my legs while skiing, and I have managed to mess my knee up by twisting it.

No I was not implying that the act of operating the clutch caused injury. You jumped there out of a pre-conceived notion about people who don't take the immediated position that manual transmissions are the divine work of god.

 

[Saf1]

^ Why is wearing heels an insult? >:]

lol, everyone who wears heels takes them off when driving, so you're off the hook m8

 

[Wolfe]

Do your use your left foot when playing the piano? Didn't think so. You're just as involved playing the piano as driving an automatic.

I do. You're hardly as involved with your hands/fingers driving a car as you are on a piano, in any case. A literal one-to-one comparison of limbs is absurd, that's why I didn't attempt to make one.

I assume you play electric so that you can also control the various sounds that the piano creates, and you use the bending device so that you can slide from one note to another.

I do, but never out of preference over a real piano. It's a bit like a DCT, then, while automatic remains "playing one-handed to accompaniment."

You probably play something a little more like this:
Why? Because that's what you're used to, it's what you've romanticized, it's traditional.

Please. How can you not consider the acoustic depth of sound and tactile note volume/attack control of a traditional piano over a typical electric? Those are somewhat emotional/touchy-feely things like the reasons I gave you for why I prefer driving manual, and just like with manual transmission, they're hardly inconsequential or trivial just because YOU don't believe they matter.

We didn't even have a real piano in the house until I had already been taking piano lessons for a year or two. The whole reason I started taking lessons was because I self-taught on electric keyboards. So much for "what I'm used to." Thanks for trying to answer your own questions for me, but I didn't need the help.

My eyes need a break from all this rolling.

 

[homeforsummer]

the only "Autos" I've driven that were worth a damn in a hard driving situation were DCT transmissions

In fairness, as I've mentioned previously, the best torque converter autos at the moment are equally as good as any DCT I've driven. I've not, for the record, driven any current Porsche or Ferrari so I reserve the right to change my opinion, but the average torque converter BMW 'box is pretty damn talented these days, ditto Mercedes.

I had to check the spec sheet of the M135i to see what 'box it was, as it felt like a DCT - locked up early in gears, shifted as near as dammit instantly etc. But nope, regular 7-speed auto.

And I know "purists" hate them, but with the right engine, a CVT is good too. Most have a sport mode these days which sorts out throttle response, and it's enough to make them feel quite lively. Of course, you don't get the same ability to use weight transfer you would in a manual/good auto/good DCT since there's little engine braking. But as far as smoothness goes, or having instant power for overtaking, they work pretty well.

 

[Danoff]

I do, but never out of preference over a real piano. It's a bit like a DCT, then, while automatic remains "playing one-handed to accompaniment."

Certainly doing a fantastic job manipulating a manual transmission is a skill and can be amazing. But if we're comparing it to musical instruments, I see something like the footwork in this:



A little more like this:

Please. How can you not consider the acoustic depth of sound and tactile note volume/attack control of a traditional piano over a typical electric?

Yea I'd never give up significant sound quality or proper key response for extra controls. But a good digital piano still offers wonderful sound, dynamics, and excellent key response. You give up 1% of those things in exchange for a WORLD of convenience. For one, my digital piano takes up a tiny amount of space compared to many analog alternatives. For another, it doesn't need to be tuned, which means every time I sit down to play it, it sounds great. Those things may sound lazy, but it's a trade. I'm trading a LOT of convenience for a tiny amount of quality.

We didn't even have a real piano in the house until I had already been taking piano lessons for a year or two. The whole reason I started taking lessons was because I self-taught on electric keyboards. So much for "what I'm used to." Thanks for trying to answer your own questions for me, but I didn't need the help.

You kinda dodged the question/accusation there. I was saying that you romanticized and traditionalized the string piano, whether it was the first thing you learned on is not the point.

My eyes need a break from all this rolling.

Feel free. How about an apology for the uncalled for personal attack?

 

[Wolfe]

Nah, I'm cool, you've been belittling every answer I give you for why I prefer what I do (you had questions, I replied), and dismissing my concerns out of hand because they don't concern you. You're talking to someone who acknowledges the merits/benefits/uses of all transmission types, so you have nothing to prove by telling me I'm "wrong." I prefer what I prefer -- you and I are not the same person -- and I have both subjective and objective reasons for doing so. Convenient as it may be for your purposes, romanticism/traditionalism is not the answer. I don't fit into your little box.

Give respect to get it. Or we can move on.

 

[Danoff]

Nah, I'm cool, you've been belittling every answer I give you for why I prefer what I do (you had questions, I replied), and dismissing my concerns out of hand because they don't concern you.

I've never personally attacked you. You, however, have personally attacked me - and for something I didn't even say. If you can't recognize your error and own it, you shouldn't go around saying things like "give respect to get it".