Save the Manuals!

[BrutherSuperior]

Wow, personal insults for no reason? I hurt my leg hyperextending my foot on some stairs... not driving the car. I have also injured my legs while skiing, and I have managed to mess my knee up by twisting it.

No I was not implying that the act of operating the clutch caused injury. You jumped there out of a pre-conceived notion about people who don't take the immediated position that manual transmissions are the divine work of god.

Well aren't you a delicate little flower...

So, what happens when you injure your wrist picking up your purse and you can't drive an automatic like the thread you created? Really, we can go back and forth on this all you like but the fact remains manuals are smooth, lower maintenance, and more durable.

And your whole "10' in 10min" thing to replicate getting out of the mud/snow. A man puts the car in gear, gets out, pushes the car out while the wheels are spinning. But if your knee is a bit bum b/c you walked down some steps...I guess you'll have to call AAA.

 

[Tornado]

I was pointing out the manual > DCT arguments that I have not rebutted and concluding that it was not significant for the massive benefits of DCT (speed, convenience, accuracy).

Then by all means don't buy another car with a manual. Still doesn't make Wolfe's reasons for preferring something wrong no matter how you try to dismiss his reasoning for his preference as being invalid because they don't apply to you.

I know how to drive a stick. It is second nature to me. Stop making assumptions.

Says the person who went out of his way to start a thread teaching people how to "properly" drive an automatic transmission, because obviously no one debating you on the issue knows how.

 

[Aquarelle]

This thread never ceases to amaze and entertain me

 

[Wolfe]

I've never personally attacked you.

Telling me my preferred driving experience is "worse" and that I only "cling to it" because it's familiar is no high ground.

It's a worse driving experience, but one which you prefer because you're used to it.

Take a good hard look at it for a second and tell me you don't cling to the manual simply because you're used to it.

On a purely argumentative basis, the behavior Toronado outlined is hardly amicable, either. You keep asking why I prefer manual but by dismissing every answer you're implying I couldn't possibly be justified in doing so. It's a bit, "what you like is wrong."

I admit I'm not exactly sure what you're reacting to, between calling your twist of my analogy "absurd" or saying I don't need help answering your own questions.

 

[Danoff]

I admit I'm not exactly sure what you're reacting to, between calling your twist of my analogy "absurd" or saying I don't need help answering your own questions.

Neither. And I'm glad you said that because it appears I'm the one who owes you and apology. I thought for sure that this quote:

How the hell do you hurt yourself depressing and releasing a clutch pedal? Driving in heels?

...was yours. It's a case of mistaken identity, I apologize.

 

[Danoff]

Well aren't you a delicate little flower...

So, what happens when you injure your wrist picking up your purse

This is a violation of the AUP and completely uncalled for. If you can't have a civilized conversation, go somewhere else.

and you can't drive an automatic like the thread you created? Really, we can go back and forth on this all you like but the fact remains manuals are smooth, lower maintenance, and more durable.

Total nonsense. BTW if I can't drive an automatic like the thread I created IT STILL WORKS!!! If your left leg is injured the manual ceases to work! Automatics require 2 limbs to operate. Manuals require 4 (3 in an a serious emergency, 4 to do more routine things like go to work while injured).

DCTs are smoother, faster, and more convenient. Automatics are smoother than 99.9% of manual drivers and for those same drivers they are lower maintenance and more durable - because those drivers burn up clutches.

And your whole "10' in 10min" thing to replicate getting out of the mud/snow. A man puts the car in gear, gets out, pushes the car out while the wheels are spinning. But if your knee is a bit bum b/c you walked down some steps...I guess you'll have to call AAA.

Foot, not knee, and it's fine now thanks for asking.

The whole point of the conversation was to discuss utility of the clutch in low traction scenarios - but you weren't really interested in that. You just wanted to get another personal attack in.

 

[e30 freek]

Gtp veterans at war

 

[Wolfe]

Neither. And I'm glad you said that because it appears I'm the one who owes you and apology. I thought for sure that this quote...was yours. It's a case of mistaken identity, I apologize.

It's all good, I'm glad we didn't allow it to spiral into something wholly unnecessary. 👍

Speaking of unnecessary, you're never going to convince me that my personal requirements from a daily driver are "wrong," and it seems I'll never convince you that preferring manual is comprised of more than just arbitrary elements of "feel" and emotion, so I think we can shake hands and step away from that one. Not that we can't continue to trade blows here, because what else are forums for but discussion?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Okay, this thread is getting out of hand. It's not a place to insult other members of GTP, it's a thread for calm debate. Certain posters need to calm down a little.

 

[justchyllan]

Just poking my head in to see whats going on while I await my flight... Ahh good to see Danoff hasn't stopped going at it. Credit where credit is due, I admit your retorts are well structured. It can not be proved that one is better than the other... I believe this is where the old saying "To each their own" comes in.

 

[Ken]

Glad to see the thread re-opened! Let's not close it down again.

 

[Exorcet]

It can not be proved that one is better than the other

Well it depends on what you're trying to prove. A manual is inferior at some things. They are slow, and more difficult to operate. Similar case for autos or anything in between.

What you probably can't do is come up with a reason to get rid of manuals completely.

 

[MedigoFlame]

Proud to say...that I've finally learned to drive a manual! My friend taught me in his Toyota 4Runner and took me out on some public roads. After that experience, I can't help but just not want to drive automatics anymore.

 

[justchyllan]

Well it depends on what you're trying to prove. A manual is inferior at some things. They are slow, and more difficult to operate. Similar case for autos or anything in between.

What you probably can't do is come up with a reason to get rid of manuals completely.

Please do not get me wrong, I favor manuals in almost all situations. I don't think manuals should be done away with either.

 

[homeforsummer]

What you probably can't do is come up with a reason to get rid of manuals completely.

Indeed. That is something that the market has to decide, and the market alone. It's much harder to justify any feature (be it transmission or otherwise) sticking around if there's simply nobody to buy it.

Manuals haven't got there yet and probably won't do for many years, though I suppose that's how the discussion in this thread really started: "save the manuals" is rather a moot concept since the only true way to "save" them is to buy brand new manual vehicles.

Learning how to drive stick or buying a two-decade old manual vehicle is noble but if you don't have the readies for something new, ultimately pointless.

 

[SpartanG]

Proud to say...that I've finally learned to drive a manual! My friend taught me in his Toyota 4Runner and took me out on some public roads. After that experience, I can't help but just not want to drive automatics anymore.

Nice! It's a great feeling haha. Once you eventually start figuring out rev-matching and double-clutching (still havent gotten this one) it's even more fun.

 

[Danoff]

It can not be proved that one is better than the other... I believe this is where the old saying "To each their own" comes in.

That would generally be fine if it weren't for the attitude that you're not a real driver unless you prefer manual in all circumstances. I'm sure that many of the people who frequent this thread would be surprised to discover that the next car I plan on buying (at the moment) is a manual.

 

[justchyllan]

That would generally be fine if it weren't for the attitude that you're not a real driver unless you prefer manual in all circumstances. I'm sure that many of the people who frequent this thread would be surprised to discover that the next car I plan on buying (at the moment) is a manual.

I would not go as far as to say that, and if I have given that impression, I apologize because by no stretch would I say that. I believe manuals CAN provide a better driving experience. My next daily driver I plan on buying is an auto. On a side note, what are you looking at buying?

 

[Clark]

This F30 BMW pic makes me smile.

 

[Joey D]

I would not go as far as to say that, and if I have given that impression, I apologize because by no stretch would I say that. I believe manuals CAN provide a better driving experience. My next daily driver I plan on buying is an auto. On a side note, what are you looking at buying?

You've been fine and I wouldn't say overbearing at all.

The people I have issues with are those who say you can't possibly be a true car person if you don't own a manual, that you some how can only have control of your car with a manual, or that the only good cars are the ones that have manual transmission. Believing any of that just makes one ignorant of cars.

I fully support personal preference on a transmission, a DCT is factually better in every way, but when it comes to personal preference there's never any reason to why you choose what you choose. Saying a manual is better than an automatic is like saying a blue car is better than a red one. If you like it and get enjoyment out of driving it then that's all there really is to it.

 

[Danoff]

I would not go as far as to say that, and if I have given that impression, I apologize because by no stretch would I say that.

Not you specifically, but it is a position that has been touted in this thread many times by many members.

(NSX btw)

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

This is the kind of manual I wish I could have on a street car.



Although I know that's not realistic.

 

[justchyllan]

(NSX btw)

Nice, my dad owns an NSX. Love the car. My evo beats it in a straight line, but not on the track.

This is the kind of manual I wish I could have on a street car.



Although I know that's not realistic.

Lol I have a trans like that in my evo. Air shifted sequential straight cut gear box. It's plenty realistic other than cost my total cost on my trans set up tips $9k.

 

[Wolfe]

@Joey D: The people I have issues with are those who say automatics/DCTs are objectively superior, period, that you NECESSARILY stand to benefit from the convenience of an automatic/DCT, or that manual transmission is antiquated and it's only logical that it be phased out. Sweeping and dismissive statements like this are no better than the ones you and Danoff were just complaining about. It goes both ways, which is why this topic always succeeds in stirring debate. Someone is going to get offended.

I've already listed ways manual is factually better than DCT; Danoff even acknowledged them, and though he personally didn't think they were worth discussing, they're important to me. For some people the differences between an automatic and a manual run deep, affecting the driving experience on a fundamental level. It's not universally objective, but it's not merely subjective.

Depending on what you're looking for, a manual IS better than an automatic. Is it better all the time, for every person, on every car or vehicle? Of course not. Is DCT/automatic better all the time, for every person, on every car or vehicle? Of course not. Let's meet in the middle, here.

 

[Joey D]

@Joey D: The people I have issues with are those who say automatics/DCTs are objectively superior, period, that you NECESSARILY stand to benefit from the convenience of an automatic/DCT, or that manual transmission is antiquated and it's only logical that it be phased out. Sweeping and dismissive statements like this are no better than the ones you and Danoff were just complaining about. It goes both ways, which is why this topic always succeeds in stirring debate. Someone is going to get offended.

I've already listed ways manual is factually better than DCT; Danoff even acknowledged them, and though he personally didn't think they were worth discussing, they're important to me. For some people the differences between an automatic and a manual run deep, affecting the driving experience on a fundamental level. It's not universally objective, but it's not merely subjective.

Technologically a DCT is superior* and a manual is antiquated technology. It's not a sweeping statement, it's a fact. No one would say an SNES is technologically better than a PS3 or that a record player is technologically superior to an iPod. Antiquated technology should be phased out because new things should be progressive. There's nothing wrong with liking or enjoying the old ways of doing thing though, you just have to realize that there are things out there that are more technologically advanced. You don't even have to think they are better than the old way of doing things, but there's really no argument when it comes to technological superiority.

Depending on what you're looking for, a manual IS better than an automatic. Is it better all the time, for every person, on every car or vehicle? Of course not. Is DCT/automatic better all the time, for every person, on every car or vehicle? Of course not. Let's meet in the middle, here.

I am meeting in the middle ground. Factually a DCT is technologically superior, but one the flip side it's also a fact some people's personal preference is to drive manual cars and it's a fact that some people just don't like automatics. It's also a fact that a manual is superior to a traditional automatic in many ways.

I haven't once said that you're wrong for liking or owning a manual vehicle, I have however said you're wrong (a general you) for saying that: you can't enjoy a car that's an automatic, that a manual instantly makes any car better, that you can't be a automotive enthusiast if you don't like manuals, that automatics don't make cars fun, that you somehow are not in control of your car with an automatic, that automatics are boring, and so on. None of that is true.


*I fully recognize that a DCT isn't superior in every single way, but it is still superior.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Discuss.

 

[Joey D]

While that could possibly be kind of fun and challenging, I don't think I'd want to drive a vehicle with two gear leavers. Semi-trucks with the push button gear shifts make way more sense, take up less room, and require less coordination. Although most newer semis have the option for some pretty cool automatic transmission that really help with hauling capabilities and fuel economy.

And I'd guess those videos aren't semi-trucks, but I'd guess those shifter setups are from one. Oh and they sound cool.

 

[justchyllan]

Discuss.

I'm guessing not many of us drive semi trucks. Not relevant.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You bunch are wholly un-fun.

 

[Perfect Balance]

that you somehow are not in control of your car with an automatic,

I get what you're saying, and I agree, you are in control of the car with an automatic, but I've repeatedly given an example in this thread where a manual is undeniably more capable of precisely controlling a vehicle, to an extent only matched by a good DCT. (but a DCT is annoying and horrible at low speeds, so I would much rather have a conventional manual) I won't bother repeating it because it's a lost cause and gets ignored each time, but this falls under your "It's also a fact that a manual is superior to a traditional automatic in many ways." statement, at least in my eyes.

Yes, you're "completely in control" of your vehicle with an automatic, but in the situation I gave multiple times, you don't have the level of precision that a manual offers, so in that situation you do have "less" control than a conventional automatic. I don't think anyone else said you aren't controlling your car if you're driving an automatic, and you've simply twisted the words around into a more "absurd" statement that obviously favors your view.

Danoff has said a few times that he doesn't feel the few benefits of a manual are worth the "inconvenience" of it compared to an automatic. The way I see it is, shifting is pretty much second nature to me, call it me being good at operating a poor interface/outdated technology, whatever floats your boat, but when I don't need the benefits of a manual, I'm not bothered by the "inconvenience" of having to shift gears, but when I do need them, they're there. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever "needed" something that an automatic has to offer, and NOT having the benefits of the manual is annoying. And I'm not talking about being able to shift down manual to pass a car.