Save the Manuals!

If you quantify the control statement like how you did, then yes there are time where a manual will grant you more control over your gear selections. Although with modern double-clutches you can do the same thing at 9/10th the ability since the computer will shift the car so you don't damage anything, or rather damage it less. To some lesser extent with traditional automatics you can change gear but up until fairly recently you often had less gears to choose from and downshifting really didn't accomplish much outside engine braking.

What I'm talking is about is those who use the argument you have more control over your car with a manual. I know you know this, but car control is way more then just gear selection. I think you have to be specific with what exactly you have control over. I mean I have seen some fairly absurd argument about manual transmissions from both sides, so I think it pays to be specific.

Also I don't think driving a manual is really difficult. I find it to be a pain to live with day to day, despite being second nature for the most part, but I fully recognize I'm probably the minority who feel that way with those who drive a manual vehicle. If you see a benefit to owning one then that's up to you, we all benefit differently from different things and if the only benefit you see is that you find the driving experience to be more enjoyable then so be it.

My only point with the antiquated technology is that manuals have been replaced with something superior and new things should move forward with new technology. You might prefer the old methods or even if you think it's better, and once again that's your choice and I don't think anyone can really fault you for thinking it's better. I just think people should recognize that a manual isn't the most ideal application for the given task currently (ie changing a gear) and there are technologically superior methods of doing it, which will only continue to get better with time.

I think I might be sending the wrong message with superior. With superior I just mean more advanced, similar to my PS3 example. The PS3 is a superior console to the SNES, but I think the SNES is a better system and more fun. I hope that makes sense and clears up my point a little bit.
 
There are motorsport fields where auto will never be able to replace manual, like in drifting, off road 4wd, those 2 comes to my mind and maybe there's more ?

I prefer manual over auto for the simple reason of clutch slip, somehow I felt more in control of giving power to the wheels especially when less is necessary, unlike auto where there are only 2 state, have power or none :D
 
Don't get me wrong, I prefer manuals, but autos are taking wheeling by storm. It's so much nicer. And you don't burn through a clutch every hour.

Boo! :lol: I will never own a auto. My kids will be taught on a stick. Should be fun.
 
There are motorsport fields where auto will never be able to replace manual, like in drifting, off road 4wd, those 2 comes to my mind and maybe there's more ?

I prefer manual over auto for the simple reason of clutch slip, somehow I felt more in control of giving power to the wheels especially when less is necessary, unlike auto where there are only 2 state, have power or none :D
Really? Because last I remembered, most professional drift cars were running sequential gearboxes of some sort instead of the conventional 5/6-speed manual.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2011/04/car_feature_gt_emanuele_festival_s_impreza/
IMG_5030_1AYI_1.jpg
 
Don't get me wrong, I prefer manuals, but autos are taking wheeling by storm. It's so much nicer. And you don't burn through a clutch every hour.

Do they have auto 4wd on off road challenge / adventure events ? Like in these :

borneo_safari1.jpg


simon%2520winch.jpg


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I am thinking with auto, the car would have serious issue when going through rocky surface, mud, waist/chest high river crossing etc.


Really? Because last I remembered, most professional drift cars were running sequential gearboxes of some sort instead of the conventional 5/6-speed manual.

Well, not all of them use it, I wonder if the driver ever need to clutch kick :lol: ... I am sure there will always be drifter with good 'ol manual, not all have the money to spend on expensive sequential box, I mean not all competing at high level pro drift events.
 
Boo! :lol: I will never own a auto. My kids will be taught on a stick. Should be fun.

What? Like I said I prefer manual. I learned on it. 3/3 cars I own now are manual.

Do they have auto 4wd on off road challenge / adventure events ? Like in these :

I am thinking with auto, the car would have serious issue when going through rocky surface, mud, waist/chest high river crossing etc.

I cannot speak for the professional arena, but as far as recreation goes they are very popular. They have no trouble water fording, and I can't imagine why you think they would.

Well, not all of them use it, I wonder if the driver ever need to clutch kick :lol: ... I am sure there will always be drifter with good 'ol manual, not all have the money to spend on expensive sequential box, I mean not all competing at high level pro drift events.

A sequential setup like that still has a clutch, so they can still clutch kick.
 
I cannot speak for the professional arena, but as far as recreation goes they are very popular. They have no trouble water fording, and I can't imagine why you think they would.

I am not very educated with autos, I almost never drove an auto in my entire life, always has been manual. I know that Auto relies on electrical system on the car, if the car's electrical system shorted due to water damage, will the auto box still work ? I've seen manual off road 4wd still running without electrical in working order, as long as the engine alive even after swimming deep in the river. I wonder what will happen with auto 4wd in that situation ..

A sequential setup like that still has a clutch, so they can still clutch kick.

I totally forgot that, my bad.
 
My apologies. Wasn't meaning to offend by any means. Hence the smiley. In fact, the boo was more directed at this:

Ahhh my apologies, I was using the gtp mobile app and it can be easy to over look smileys because they display as ":lol:" Anyway I don't own any 4x4 anymore, but it was the trend I noticed, I wheeled stick and loved it! And my dad taught me to drive stick, its a classic "father and son" bonding moment. I'd be looking forward to that if I were you!
 
Technologically a DCT is superior* and a manual is antiquated technology. It's not a sweeping statement, it's a fact.

This is not true, unless you're only using antiquated to mean "old". Yeah, manual is an older technology than DCT, but DCT is not strictly superior to a manual. See low speed issues.

No one would say an SNES is technologically better than a PS3 or that a record player is technologically superior to an iPod.

This is a good point. A PS3 (or modern computer) IS strictly superior to an SNES. A modern computer can emulate an SNES as well as do many other things besides. It's an SNES plus more, so what's not to like?

Record players on the other hand, are still being used in high end music applications. There are things they can do (and the way that they produce sound) that cannot be replicated by digital media. While an iPod may be more convenient, it is not strictly better.

I feel that manuals are more akin to the record player/iPod comparison. One day, they will probably be like this. Most people won't want them, but a few always will because there are positive aspects of manual gearboxes that cannot be replicated in other ways.
 
The way I see it is, shifting is pretty much second nature to me, call it me being good at operating a poor interface/outdated technology, whatever floats your boat, but when I don't need the benefits of a manual, I'm not bothered by the "inconvenience" of having to shift gears, but when I do need them, they're there. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever "needed" something that an automatic has to offer, and NOT having the benefits of the manual is annoying. And I'm not talking about being able to shift down manual to pass a car.
I couldn't agree more. 👍
What I'm talking is about is those who use the argument you have more control over your car with a manual. I know you know this, but car control is way more then just gear selection. I think you have to be specific with what exactly you have control over.
The clutch. The whole point is the clutch. For those of us who derive objective utility and value from that control, the DCT will never replace manuals because the whole point of DCT is to eliminate the manual clutch. That's why we won't be convinced to accept DCT as the future; it's why we're so stubborn about it. You're asking us to abandon the very foundation of why we drive what we drive.
My only point with the antiquated technology is that manuals have been replaced with something superior and new things should move forward with new technology. You might prefer the old methods or even if you think it's better, and once again that's your choice and I don't think anyone can really fault you for thinking it's better. I just think people should recognize that a manual isn't the most ideal application for the given task currently (ie changing a gear) and there are technologically superior methods of doing it, which will only continue to get better with time.
If a manual clutch offered literally nothing unique over driving a DCT, then it would be correct to say that it's simply a preferred method of picking gears. But it isn't just a different method of picking gears. The clutch isn't just a "press this to move the stick" lever, like the button on an automatic gear selector. It offers a whole other layer of control. As someone interested in taking advantage of that extra control, manual is objectively superior. You can't deny it. You can only say that the extra control isn't important to you.

DCT isn't a replacement for manual. It's an alternative.
 
This is not true, unless you're only using antiquated to mean "old". Yeah, manual is an older technology than DCT, but DCT is not strictly superior to a manual. See low speed issues.

That's all I'm saying when I say antiquated. The manual is old and outdated, it doesn't mean that there still aren't some merits to it but to say it's technologically superior to a DCT just isn't true.

This is a good point. A PS3 (or modern computer) IS strictly superior to an SNES. A modern computer can emulate an SNES as well as do many other things besides. It's an SNES plus more, so what's not to like?

And like a modern computer, a DCT can emulate a manual, although like with emulation on a computer it's not the same as the original. When you emulate an SNES game on a computer you don't always have the same controller, you sometimes can't save your games right, and sometimes the graphics aren't quite as good.

This is my point. DCT's are the superior piece of technology and that's what should be in new vehicles coming out, but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for manuals in vehicles that are older (even a few years older). With technology changes you're always going to give up something but that shouldn't prevent the industry from moving forward.

A DCT will be antiquated technology in probably 20 years.


The clutch. The whole point is the clutch. For those of us who derive objective utility and value from that control, the DCT will never replace manuals because the whole point of DCT is to eliminate the manual clutch. That's why we won't be convinced to accept DCT as the future; it's why we're so stubborn about it. You're asking us to abandon the very foundation of why we drive what we drive.

If a manual clutch offered literally nothing unique over driving a DCT, then it would be correct to say that it's simply a preferred method of picking gears. But it isn't just a different method of picking gears. The clutch isn't just a "press this to move the stick" lever, like the button on an automatic gear selector. It offers a whole other layer of control. As someone interested in taking advantage of that extra control, manual is objectively superior. You can't deny it. You can only say that the extra control isn't important to you.

DCT isn't a replacement for manual. It's an alternative.

I think you're taking this entirely too personally. I'm not suggesting you give up your manual or that you're wrong for wanting to drive one. I agree that you get extra control when selecting gears, even though technology is making that point less and less valid.

You should be convinced that the DCT is the future of transmission, because it really is. It may not be better in your eyes, but it's still superior, meaning better technology. From a functional standpoint the superior piece of technology isn't always the best for everyone, it why people still hold onto older things because they personally don't see a need for change. With the industry though it's pretty clear a majority of new car buyers want automatics, even in performance cars, so the industry should continue to better that technology and use it...otherwise whatever company doesn't will get left behind from a technological point of view.

And the only thing I ask people to do is abandon this silly attitude that automatics can in no way be fun, good, or interesting and that gear selection is only a small part of the overall control of a vehicle.

You don't have to like DCT's, you don't have to want to drive one, and you don't have to abandon your manual to buy one. Just recognize that it's a superior (or say more advanced if you prefer) piece of technology and that you prefer the older (or simpler) way of doing something because it offers you something you feel is important, whether that be the clutch or just driving enjoyment. And recognize a car with a DCT can still be just as good as a car with a manual. Going back to my video game example, you don't have to like or want to own a PS3, but you have to accept that it's more technologically advanced than you SNES and that while you still prefer your SNES for all your gaming needs, there are still merits to the PS3 that the SNES just can't do, but at the same time there are still somethings a SNES can do that a PS3 can't.

I hope I've made my point clearer. You're not wrong for liking manuals and you're not wrong for thinking they're better, they just aren't the superior transmission when it comes to technology.
 
Joey, I wasn't talking about control over your gear changes, and rather the response and precision offered by a direct mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels. This is really only matched by a dct or similar transmission, and while I agree the gear changes are better/quicker and it's definitely a quicker way around a racetrack, I don't think losing all your benefits of a conventional manual is worth it, at least not for me, unless the car only serves a purpose as a track car and you never have to deal with low speed driving, or at least when you do, it's not an important situation. Sort of like the tiny clutch pecal in wrc cars. Sure, it might be a pain to use it, but they don't use it when the car is actually doing what it's built for, but, it's still there when they need it. If my car was only for driving around town, or only for grip track driving, an automatic slushbox or dct is great, but I do both, and I drift, and sometimes I get stuck, or sometimes I'm in a traffic jam, and doing something that completely doesn't bother me, like operating a clutch and shift lever, is completely and entirely worth having something that works well in all situations.

Also, getting rid of manual transmissions would pretty much cut out any new cars from entering the sport of drifting, unless you were to swap in a manual, but that's a more personal view.
 
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That's all I'm saying when I say antiquated. The manual is old and outdated, it doesn't mean that there still aren't some merits to it but to say it's technologically superior to a DCT just isn't true.

I'm with you, except for the outdated part. There are things a manual can do that a DCT cannot, and as such it is absolutely not outdated.

Technological superiority...I think you're just meaning it's more complicated? Tank treads are technologically superior to wheels, they require a higher level of technology to construct and operate. Doesn't mean they're better all the time.

And like a modern computer, a DCT can emulate a manual, although like with emulation on a computer it's not the same as the original. When you emulate an SNES game on a computer you don't always have the same controller, you sometimes can't save your games right, and sometimes the graphics aren't quite as good.

It's a decent point, and emulation isn't the greatest example anyway. Even the best emulator is never quite the same as the actual hardware.

This is my point. DCT's are the superior piece of technology and that's what should be in new vehicles coming out, but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for manuals in vehicles that are older (even a few years older). With technology changes you're always going to give up something but that shouldn't prevent the industry from moving forward.

Just recognize that it's a superior (or say more advanced if you prefer) piece of technology and that you prefer the older (or simpler) way of doing something because it offers you something you feel is important, whether that be the clutch or just driving enjoyment.

I still don't agree with this. It's a more advanced piece of technology. It is not strictly superior. It's superior in some situations, and inferior in others. Just as an automatic is superior in some situations, and inferior in others. DCTs are a middle ground for people who want more control than an auto, but don't want to have to deal with three pedals. They are not a replacement for manuals.

The day they make a DCT that has a clutch pedal you can choose to use as well, that will be a replacement for a manual. You could argue that it'd need an H-pattern to go 4th -> 2nd as well, but if the downshift is fast enough you can double tap and it'd be equivalent enough. Bikes manage to double tap easily enough, I see no particular need to hold onto H-patterns (although it is good fun).
 
I'm with you, except for the outdated part. There are things a manual can do that a DCT cannot, and as such it is absolutely not outdated.

Like get your car going if you leave the lights on. Awesome. Here's my list of things a manual does better:

- You can get it rolling if the battery dies
- You can skip gears if you find yourself wanting to
- You have an extra lever and pedal to keep you entertained while you drive.
- It costs less than a DCT for now
- You may or may not have an easier time at slow speeds in slippery conditions

I can't attest to that last one. I'm sure some DCTs have trouble with that, but I'm not convinced that particularly good ones have trouble with that. It's possible that even wonderful ones like the one famine listed struggle a bit in extreme high performance scenarios where a tenth of a second on a launch is critical, but still have no trouble with snow or mud where you might really care. Joey has attested to having no issues with DCT in low speed low traction scenarios.

It's worth noting that the lack of clutch doesn't seem to hold back formula 1 drivers in the rain, so perhaps any tradeoff in that regard is worth it even for high performance cases.

So I'm calling the final bullet point, if not dead, at least mortally wounded.

The 2nd to last bullet point, cost, is fine. If you're buying your car because you want it to be cheap, fine. But don't tell me it's better, it's just cheaper.

The 3rd bullet point is a bit silly. if you just really like the visceral feel of moving the lever and punching the clutch, then I guess the manual is for you. I admit, I like it too, but it's not enough to outweigh the negatives for me. If it is for you, that's your personal preference and more power to you. Don't get high and mighty though about how much you enjoy grabbing a stick and moving your foot.

The 2nd bullet point really comes down to practice. If you're hard on the brake in a DCT and you want to be in the right gear after, you need to be downshifting as you decrease speed. Sure it's not what you're used to, but it's not like you can't learn how to make it work just as well (if not better - because you're always in the right gear instead of waiting to find out what the final right gear is).

The 1st bullet point is, admittedly, an advantage. That's the one unimpeachable advantage of a manual transmission - that you can kill the battery and still get it started. It's such a specific scenario though. I can count the number of times I've done that in the last 15 years on one hand. For something so unlikely, I have a lot of trouble figuring out why it's even being discussed here at all.

So that's it, point number 1 sticks best, and it's not really impressive.

Now the flip side, what makes DCTs better than manuals:

- You can operate them with 2 limbs if you want to
- They're more convenient in traffic
- Faster on the track
- More accurate shifting, no botched shifts
- No need to remove hands from the wheel to shift
- No need to rev match means easier use and no ruined synchros
- No clutch pedal means no concern about clutch wear
- People who don't know how to drive stick can drive it (yes that's a plus)
- A previously owned version is less likely to need major repairs (torched clutches are so common on used manuals)

There are also touchy-feely reasons to like the DCT over the manual. I find it to be a more pure driving experience. It's more just you and the car. You're welded to the machine rather than moving levers and pedals to make it work. It's just you and the road - hands on the wheel, mind on the turn.
 
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And like a modern computer, a DCT can emulate a manual, although like with emulation on a computer it's not the same as the original. When you emulate an SNES game on a computer you don't always have the same controller, you sometimes can't save your games right, and sometimes the graphics aren't quite as good.

No, in no way can a DCT emulate a manual, unless an extra pedal pops out....

Can you elaborate on what it's like to have a sequential dogbox like yours in a street car?

It's extremely loud. R-N-1-2-3-4-5. Simple as that. I have a giant pole where the gear lever would normally be. Pull it back to upshift, push forward to downshift. Also have a small lever next to it to drop it into neutral from any gear. You have to get going in 1st using the clutch like in a normal manual, but after that I can bang in the gears if I want, or use the clutch to shift softly if I'm driving on the street. My evo is not my DD though, I only drive it on the nicest of nice days. I can't speak to what it would be like to have one in a DD setup.
 
Forward to downshift, back to upshift is just the proper layout. Many many automatics (including one I own) have the manual mode with back to downshift, forward to upshift, which is just wrong.

Ohh :lol: Yeah, it does feel weirdly natural that way. You know I wasn't talking about an auto though, right?
 
Ohh :lol: Yeah, it does feel weirdly natural that way. You know I wasn't talking about an auto though, right?

I do.

I've pondered it a bit. I think it comes from the fact that in each straight portion of the H you're pulling back to upshift and pushing up to downshift. Obviously there are plenty of shifts that go the other way (2nd to 3rd, 5th to 4th), but for some reason those aren't the default in my brain - so when it's just forward or backward, I emulate a straight shift on an H pattern.
 
I've pondered it a bit. I think it comes from the fact that in each straight portion of the H you're pulling back to upshift and pushing up to downshift. Obviously there are plenty of shifts that go the other way (2nd to 3rd, 5th to 4th), but for some reason those aren't the default in my brain - so when it's just forward or backward, I emulate a straight shift on an H pattern.

I think the reason a "proper" sequential is forward to go down, back to go up, is due to the forces experienced when racing (where the 'boxes started).

Accelerate hard, and the forces naturally push you back - so hanging onto the shifter, it's easier to pull back. Brake hard and it's easier to push the lever forward, rather than pull it towards you against the 1-2 G of braking force in your typical race car.

Incidentally, racing motorcycle shifters are similarly arranged, and the opposite to those of road bikes. On a road motorcycle you click your foot up to shift up, down to shift down. When racing, you push down (with the weight transfer to the back of the bike) to shift up, and braking hard, click up to shift down. Bet it confuses the hell out of road riders at first.
 
I do.

I've pondered it a bit. I think it comes from the fact that in each straight portion of the H you're pulling back to upshift and pushing up to downshift. Obviously there are plenty of shifts that go the other way (2nd to 3rd, 5th to 4th), but for some reason those aren't the default in my brain - so when it's just forward or backward, I emulate a straight shift on an H pattern.

The most common upshift is to second, which is back. So I think that's part of the instinct right there.
 
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