Save "Tookie"?

  • Thread starter High-Test
  • 150 comments
  • 4,595 views

Should Arnold Grant Stanley Williams Clemency?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 45.2%

  • No

    Votes: 23 54.8%
  • Total voters
    42
But do want them to have the right to get married ? I married a gay whale for health insurance ....
 
Plague.Ghost
Swift, would you say there's such thing as an honourable crime, or at the very least, a cowardly one? Say, if someone shot/punched/stabbed one in the face or the back, would one be looked upon with more or less cowardice?
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Sure, but what does that have to do with anything? I mean, a murder is different from self defense. I personally think that if someone you don't know is in your home and you shoot them in the back, they shouldn't have been in your place. But that doesn't fly in court.

But to answer your question, duh. If you go after someone in non-self defense from teh rear, that's weak.
 
Swift
Sure, but what does that have to do with anything? I mean, a murder is different from self defense. I personally think that if someone you don't know is in your home and you shoot them in the back, they shouldn't have been in your place. But that doesn't fly in court.

But to answer your question, duh. If you go after someone in non-self defense from teh rear, that's weak.
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Alright, so if...say, you were to shoot someone in the back, would you expect a harsher sentence, assuming you would have had to shoot them on purpose or with extreme intent?

If you shot them face-to-face and did it more "honourabely*" (sp?) would you expect a slightly lesser sentence?

*I use this term as loosely as possible.
 
Plague.Ghost
Alright, so if...say, you were to shoot someone in the back, would you expect a harsher sentence, assuming you would have had to shoot them on purpose or with extreme intent?

If you shot them face-to-face and did it more "honourabely*" (sp?) would you expect a slightly lesser sentence?

*I use this term as loosely as possible.
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No, murder is murder. If your actions result in the death of someone and it wasn't in self defense, what's the difference if it's the face or the back?
 
Swift
No, murder is murder. If your actions result in the death of someone and it wasn't in self defense, what's the difference if it's the face or the back?
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I just think shooting someone in the back is a more cowardly thing to do, than shoot them face to face. As trivial as it is, I think it makes a bit of a difference. Especially since the person being shot in the back is basically helpless, at least someone face-to-face has some chance of self defence.
 
Plague.Ghost
I just think shooting someone in the back is a more cowardly thing to do, than shoot them face to face. As trivial as it is, I think it makes a bit of a difference. Especially since the person being shot in the back is basically helpless, at least someone face-to-face has some chance of self defence.
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Nah, that doesn't matter. Look at a case of an intruder in your home. If you shoot them in the back, in court they will most likely rule that you shouldn't have shot them because they weren't a threat "at that time" but they could always turn around and do something to you.

Anyway, I don't think that it should play into the sentencing of a convicted person.
 
Swift
I don't think that it should play into the sentencing of a convicted person.
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Most of the time someone shoots someone else is out of fear. That's a huge problem with police shootings, because major American police forces have become such a media icon (LA and New York particularily), that as soon as they're dispatched, a bank robber/purse snatcher/whatever fears for their lives. So they shoot back.

It's a vicious cycle. One police shooting (Diallo, anyone?) puts fear into lots of people (I'm not speaking from experience, but I'm guessing that LA cops have a history of police brutality and the (stereotypical) black male of South Central L.A. is quite afraid of them because he knows that police sometimes shoot first, ask questions later) and it just gets worse.

I just think, that in the event of a shoot-out, or home invasion, a person who shoots someone in the back as opposed to face-to-face has less justification in shooting them and should receive a harsher sentence. Do you see what I mean now?
 
Plague.Ghost
I just think, that in the event of a shoot-out, or home invasion, a person who shoots someone in the back as opposed to face-to-face has less justification in shooting them and should receive a harsher sentence. Do you see what I mean now?
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I see what you mean, but I dont' agree at all. Just because someone isn't looking at you doesn't mean they can't hurt you.

What if they are walking backwards toward you? There's a whole host of things with that situation that just make a harsher sentencing illogical.
 
Swift
I see what you mean, but I dont' agree at all. Just because someone isn't looking at you doesn't mean they can't hurt you.

What if they are walking backwards toward you? There's a whole host of things with that situation that just make a harsher sentencing illogical.
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Ohhh. . . I didn't mean it that way. I meant if you were the agressor and killed someone trying to run away VS killing someone facing you, not as the defender.
 
^^yeah...

High-Test
Does saving potentially thousands of kids from being killed in gang wars earn someone clemency? I believe so.
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That's great and all he made good use of his time instead of just wasting away, thanks for the good work but it's not enough to make up for killing FOUR people and now it's time to make up for that.
 
smellysocks12
I didn't expect you to say anything different.




Anyone who is for the death penalty is a nazi. I don't even care about whether this guy did it or not, if he did it he should be in jail his entire life, he isn't a threat to society now so there is no reason to eliminate him. If he didn't do it he should've been released decades ago. The crips didn't start as a criminal gang, at the time they got really violent this guy was out of the picture for a long time already.


I don't get why they would sentence someone to death to begin with, when they still let them rot in jail for another 25 years? Why don't they execute a person right away? Makes no sense to me.
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I may be 12, but I have an opinion on this.

Nothing can erase a lost life. You can kill somebody, then right 100 books on the subject teaching people why not to do it, do speeches and everything, but it will never make up for the loss of another human life. He got what was coming to him. At 12:01 tonight he gets to "take a long walk down a short hall".
 
BlazinXtreme
That's a pretty bold statement to make without any explination.
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I've given my opinion on capital punishment quite thoroughly. Individual cases I don't think of any differently (unless the bad guy is ultra evil - Hitler etc). I am simply against capital punishment full stop.

Not a bold statement really, just saying that American law (and the people that support it - going by the thread and what I've read other places (most people who felt strongly against capital punishment weren't Americans)) aren't gonna change any time soon.

Americans will be Americans.


You'd rather have him sucking the life out of more tax dollars or better yet running around out in the public?
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Yes, my reasoning is there in all my previous posts. If I were to equate morality and justice with money for a second (like some of you worryingly do), I could also note that it often costs MORE to kill a guy than feed him and lock him up for the remainder of his life.
 
MachOne
I may be 12, but I have an opinion on this.

Nothing can erase a lost life. You can kill somebody, then right 100 books on the subject teaching people why not to do it, do speeches and everything, but it will never make up for the loss of another human life. He got what was coming to him. At 12:01 tonight he gets to "take a long walk down a short hall".
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And we have one smart 12 year old here, I'm impressed.

James
I've given my opinion on capital punishment quite thoroughly. Individual cases I don't think of any differently (unless the bad guy is ultra evil - Hitler etc). I am simply against capital punishment full stop.

Not a bold statement really, just saying that American law (and the people that support it - going by the thread and what I've read other places (most people who felt strongly against capital punishment weren't Americans)) aren't gonna change any time soon.

Americans will be Americans.
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You make it sound like all Americans are evil, just because our opinions are different then your doesn't make us bad. No body is right and no one is wrong on this whole issue.
 
Is it evil to kill a man if he may be innocent? Is it evil to kill a man full stop?

I'm not saying Americans are evil, well not on purpose anyway. :lol:
 
:odd: tell me.. how do you MISTAKENLY kill 4 people then? A founder of a gang? an you're gonna slap him on the wrist and let him go? gimme a break.
 
VIPFREAK
:odd: tell me.. how do you MISTAKENLY kill 4 people then? A founder of a gang? an you're gonna slap him on the wrist and let him go? gimme a break.
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I was talking generally about capital punishment, not about this particular case. I don't even know who Tookie is really! Because I am against capital punishment, I am (by default) against killing this dude called Tookie.

I actually do want adequate (in fact harsher than death) punishment for this guy (or any murderer - detailed in my previous post/s - and I give my reasons WHY this is more morally correct and 'just'...) so maybe you need to read my previous posts to realise I don't need to give anyone a break. I NEVER condoned letting a convicted murderer go.

Its totally NOT about tax dollars, its about justice and morality, IMO.

Maybe you needed to understand my point of view more clearly before posting?
 
James2097
I was talking generally about capital punishment, not about this particular case. I don't even know who Tookie is really! Because I am against capital punishment, I am (by default) against killing this dude called Tookie.
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:odd: uhh... well that is what this thread is about. isn't it? :dunce:
 
VIPFREAK
:odd: uhh... well that is what this thread is about. isn't it? :dunce:
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Individual cases that are controversial and catch the public eye tend to raise the overall issue regarding the ethical problems with capital punishment (the real issue here, not individual cases). This thread has broadened adequately to talk about these issues in more general terms without seeming off-topic, IMO.
 
Personally, I believe death is the easy way out. Stanley Williams was accused of killing 4 people with a shotgun. He should rot in jail for the rest of his natural life, instead of the rest of his 5 or so hours he has left.

I am 100% understanding of what James said, and I feel that Capital Punishment is morally wrong. America accuses China of being cruel for using capital punishment, yet we are one of the last Western countries to have it. Is something wrong here? :boggled:
 
why do some of you guys keep saying that keeping him imprisoned will cost more money than exicuting him. thats not true
 
It's actually about the same price when you factor in the cost to the state with appeals and stuff. If you are guilty beyond a shadow of doubt, you shouldn't be allowed to appeal because I don't want my tax dollars paying for your ass.
 
BlazinXtreme
It's actually about the same price when you factor in the cost to the state with appeals and stuff. If you are guilty beyond a shadow of doubt, you shouldn't be allowed to appeal because I don't want my tax dollars paying for your ass.
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The appeals process exists to prevent the wrongly accused from being locked up or killed. We can't be selective about that.
 
MrktMkr1986
The appeals process exists to prevent the wrongly accused from being locked up or killed. We can't be selective about that.
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Hence why I said beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 

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