SCC - Ferrari 355 Challenge Series - Series Complete, results posted!
- Thread starter jjaisli
- 520 comments
- 42,002 views
- 1,820
- Ireland
- turnupdaheat
Seeing as I agree with Alan it must be a Paddy thing!
- 1,820
- Ireland
- turnupdaheat
Henrik (wheelman) set his time with +25 front and rear didn't he?
- 310
- Finland
Only 9 laps on wet race?
But he's not from this planet, so it doesn't count. I agree with other wheel users. I also had a very conservative front toe in my personal best lap.
It seems that I wont have any time to practice this week. I haven't found the time to open my PS3 after last friday. Luckily I did some practice last week, so I don't need to start totally without practice. But even though I have okay time, I haven't done any wet laps or driven "racelike". Let's just hope that I have time to do some laps before the event starts on sunday. And lets hope that I can stay as late as necessary for the event, it's possible that I have to take off after the dry race.
But he's not from this planet, so it doesn't count. I agree with other wheel users. I also had a very conservative front toe in my personal best lap.
It seems that I wont have any time to practice this week. I haven't found the time to open my PS3 after last friday. Luckily I did some practice last week, so I don't need to start totally without practice. But even though I have okay time, I haven't done any wet laps or driven "racelike". Let's just hope that I have time to do some laps before the event starts on sunday. And lets hope that I can stay as late as necessary for the event, it's possible that I have to take off after the dry race.
- 1,820
- Ireland
- turnupdaheat
Yeah, I'm saying that in SCC, the more positive rear toe I use, the more it helps to reduce the oversteer. More negative rear toe really makes the rear unstable (possibly faster if you can control it). I find more positive on the front makes it turn in quicker. In GT5P, I find more positive front toe does the same - more responsive turning in. Not sure about the rear though in GT5P.
So I don't know if SCC has got it the wrong way round, whether it looks right in the showroom but acts wrongly, or looks wrong in the showroom but behaves correctly etc.
So I don't know if SCC has got it the wrong way round, whether it looks right in the showroom but acts wrongly, or looks wrong in the showroom but behaves correctly etc.
- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
I estimate the feature race to go about 51 minutes, give or take. At that point, I just figured 15 laps of wet would be too much. Even at 9 laps, I expect the wet race to go about 23+ minutes, which is a respectable distance.
Either way, you're not fooling anybody. I'm sure you'll run neck and neck with Henrick for 2nd place. Or even first if one or the other blow qualifying and get held up in traffic.
Fully agree about the front. But the rear does just the opposite with a wheel. The more positive toe at the rear, the more the rear of the car wants to rotate on it's own and you need to be on constant opposite lock to control it.
Last edited:
- 1,820
- Ireland
- turnupdaheat
- 6,086
- Simcoeace
All I can tell you is that (with a G25) a lot of front toe causes the car to turn in more aggressively, but it also makes it very twitchy & unpredictable, with sometimes catastrophic results. 
I very much prefer the feel of driving the car without positive toe: it seems to drift wider but steadier, but I can see that being able to turn in sharper allows the possibility of a significantly faster time.
As far as the pad/wheel debate is concerned, I still think it is unrealistic to expect SCC, with its very physical, distinctive FFB, to handle the same with both pad & wheel. Just what would the equivalent of that juddering FFB pressure be with a controller?
I very much prefer the feel of driving the car without positive toe: it seems to drift wider but steadier, but I can see that being able to turn in sharper allows the possibility of a significantly faster time.As far as the pad/wheel debate is concerned, I still think it is unrealistic to expect SCC, with its very physical, distinctive FFB, to handle the same with both pad & wheel. Just what would the equivalent of that juddering FFB pressure be with a controller?
Ah I just spotted your text in the middle of my quote JJ.
The first time I tried out rear toe properly was 348C at Virginia. When I added a few clicks of negative rear, it made it twist in to the apex a bit easier (essentially a little sliding). So I'm very confident that this is how it works in SCC, for pad users.
I don't see anything in the pad steering which could cause the difference. So it's a strange one. Can't understand how just the rear toe could be different between pad and wheel. Maybe worth a topic on the Eutechnyx forum.
In all the racers I've played, I see two distinct styles of steering systems for pad users. There must be a name for them, but I just call it "absolute" and "non-absolute". The GT series and Shift are absolute, and I think F1-2005 is also (probably some others that I have never used). All other sims I've used are non-absolute (F195/97/98, all Toca series including GRID).
Under the first way (as I call absolute), the amount of lock physically input is the amount of lock which is attempted to be received. So based on the range of motion, if you input 30% physically, the car will attempt to accept 30% lock. If the car is moving fast enough, and this lock is beyond the slip-angle of the wheels, then the car will understeer (just as it should). So this means you always have to accurately input the correct amount of lock. This is why I much, much prefer the GT5P steering compared to FC/SCC, because it's a proper challenge. This is also why the wheel, with its greater range of motion, is naturally more suitable than the pad for steering in that game (using throttle on the pad stick is seriously comfortable for me, however!).
The other way (non-absolute as I say) is used to make it easier for pad users to deal with the narrow range of motion for steering with sticks/buttons etc. The amount of steering lock accepted is proportional to the speed of the car; 100% lock is always right before the slip angle of the front wheels*. So practically, this means for a non-flat out corner, you hit 100% lock input and then just get the speed right for the corner. That makes it sound easy - well you still have to pick the proper line, and execute all of the other techniques properly (apart from that outrageous counter-steer thing).
Anyway, so I think it's good to have a bit of background on how the pad steering works in this game. And from this, I can't see anything which would make the rear toe act differently compared to the wheel.
*In SCC, for some reason, if the speed of the car is very low, the steering input method becomes the absolute method. With the Testa Rossa around La Source at Spa, if you input 100% lock, the wheels go beyond the slip angle and you understeer. It's tricky, because there's a crossover into and out of this method. So practically, sometimes you find yourself actually increasing the steering input when exiting tight hairpins, while the speed increases and crosses over back to the non-absolute method. The crossover is within around a 10kph range, so it's really tricky.
The first time I tried out rear toe properly was 348C at Virginia. When I added a few clicks of negative rear, it made it twist in to the apex a bit easier (essentially a little sliding). So I'm very confident that this is how it works in SCC, for pad users.
I don't see anything in the pad steering which could cause the difference. So it's a strange one. Can't understand how just the rear toe could be different between pad and wheel. Maybe worth a topic on the Eutechnyx forum.
In all the racers I've played, I see two distinct styles of steering systems for pad users. There must be a name for them, but I just call it "absolute" and "non-absolute". The GT series and Shift are absolute, and I think F1-2005 is also (probably some others that I have never used). All other sims I've used are non-absolute (F195/97/98, all Toca series including GRID).
Under the first way (as I call absolute), the amount of lock physically input is the amount of lock which is attempted to be received. So based on the range of motion, if you input 30% physically, the car will attempt to accept 30% lock. If the car is moving fast enough, and this lock is beyond the slip-angle of the wheels, then the car will understeer (just as it should). So this means you always have to accurately input the correct amount of lock. This is why I much, much prefer the GT5P steering compared to FC/SCC, because it's a proper challenge. This is also why the wheel, with its greater range of motion, is naturally more suitable than the pad for steering in that game (using throttle on the pad stick is seriously comfortable for me, however!).
The other way (non-absolute as I say) is used to make it easier for pad users to deal with the narrow range of motion for steering with sticks/buttons etc. The amount of steering lock accepted is proportional to the speed of the car; 100% lock is always right before the slip angle of the front wheels*. So practically, this means for a non-flat out corner, you hit 100% lock input and then just get the speed right for the corner. That makes it sound easy - well you still have to pick the proper line, and execute all of the other techniques properly (apart from that outrageous counter-steer thing).
Anyway, so I think it's good to have a bit of background on how the pad steering works in this game. And from this, I can't see anything which would make the rear toe act differently compared to the wheel.
*In SCC, for some reason, if the speed of the car is very low, the steering input method becomes the absolute method. With the Testa Rossa around La Source at Spa, if you input 100% lock, the wheels go beyond the slip angle and you understeer. It's tricky, because there's a crossover into and out of this method. So practically, sometimes you find yourself actually increasing the steering input when exiting tight hairpins, while the speed increases and crosses over back to the non-absolute method. The crossover is within around a 10kph range, so it's really tricky.
Last edited:
- 245
- London, England
- JTURNER_042
thanks alan. 
.
ok so i just tried that setup, and the best i could do was i 1.37! and that was a good lap!
.ok so i just tried that setup, and the best i could do was i 1.37! and that was a good lap!
- 43
- frawe
thanks alan.
ok so i just tried that setup, and the best i could do was i 1.37! and that was a good lap!
I hope you mean 2.37 at Spa.
Or you are also an Alien
- 245
- London, England
- JTURNER_042
haha, i meant 2.37
i just did a perfect lap, nailed every corner, and it was a 2.35.84.
there is no way i could find another second let alone 6.
i must have put in the setup wrong or something
i just did a perfect lap, nailed every corner, and it was a 2.35.84.
there is no way i could find another second let alone 6.
i must have put in the setup wrong or something
- 245
- London, England
- JTURNER_042
oh yeah sorry, i forgot your all aliens lol
i dont think i'm losing to much time through eau rouge, because i'm almost flat, just a tiny lift to flick the car right is all i use. must be somewhere i'm losing it though
i dont think i'm losing to much time through eau rouge, because i'm almost flat, just a tiny lift to flick the car right is all i use. must be somewhere i'm losing it though
Being 6 seconds off the top times can be a bit deceptive. Spa is a very long circuit - 2.5 minutes. If you were 3 seconds off at Homestead, that may not seem as bad, and you could focus on knocking a couple of seconds off. I'd forget about the numbers anyway. I always focus on my own lap, and try to recognise, during the lap, when I could have taken the previous corner better.
- 2,114
- Porto-Portugal
- arvore
- FCP CAMPEÕES
oh yeah sorry, i forgot your all aliens lol
i don't think I'm losing to much time through eau rouge, because I'm almost flat, just a tiny lift to flick the car right is all i use. must be somewhere I'm losing it though
Hey Turner I was feeling the exact same thing a couple of days ago when I was pulling 2,35,xx;2,34xx...where the heck do these aliens shave so much time?
Now I'm pulling 2,33,xx;2,32,xx(high),and I only made 2 TT sessions and I'm not comfortable with my setups yet(what Alan told You but with Hard dampeners F\R,TOE -5F\-10R) and I still don't get how it's possible to do 2,29;2,30
but I guess Spa being such a long track has plenty of corners where the fastest guys can gain a couple of tenths(Eau Rouge,Pouhon,Stavelot,Blanchimont,etc) especially when there are straights after the turn(which all added would end up in 2 or 3 seconds less,instead of 1,5;2 seconds less which is usually my gap to the Lizard skinned drivers in shorter tracks.💡I guess the 2,29,xx is only at reach for those with green skin and cold blood!
But I'm betting that if You do 10 or 20 laps in a row You will have a better pace than mine in no time,so just try a little bit more.👍
- 1,820
- Ireland
- turnupdaheat
haha, i meant 2.37
I made the same mistake and got laughed at on page 19!
Spa can be very frustrating because often what may feel like a very good lap doesn't turn in as good a time as you may expect. As the lads have said, the problem is that being such a long track that even if you are only losing small slices of time throughout the lap they add up to a larger amount of lost time then you may think. My best lap so far is a 2'30 but, to be honest, it didn't feel any quicker than some 2'32 or 2'33 laps that I did.
Don't blame the setup. The secrets are in the track and if you persist the track will reveal them!
- 245
- London, England
- JTURNER_042
yeah i think its just me. i've never been good at spa in this game, i''ll carry on practising anyway
yeah i think its just me. i've never been good at spa in this game, i''ll carry on practising anyway
It sounds like you've got Eau Rouge/Raidillon down okay; it's definitely not flat-out - just a little lift around the right hand part, and then nail the throttle in a straight line before you get over the crest (or if you have to steer a bit, maybe 70% throttle).
Try out braking into the corners; getting in early in some places. 'Rivage' is definitely one to turn-in early while braking (I know it can be unstable, but set up the car to handle kind of driving). Pouhon is a another one to definitely get in early; hit the apex just after the corner starts.
Take plenty of curb on the 2nd apex of the bus stop (i.e. right wheels on the curb!), and take a heavy throttle, straight-ish exit. Loads of time to be found in that place.
Maybe have a look at your braking points, making sure they're as late as possible (sometimes I find myself carelessly braking a fraction early, and not really noticing it for a while).
You've got great pace anyway Turner, so you probably just need to get back in the swing.
Last edited:
- 2,114
- Porto-Portugal
- arvore
- FCP CAMPEÕES
My advice Turner:
do what I do: take a look at arvore's time & then work on beating it by a few 10ths. You may be slower than some of the others ... but you'll be quicker than arvore, which will give you a warm, fuzzy feeling.
Low standards even for You oldman!
Where is Your 3rd runner up in the Ladder ambition...
(btw I saw what You did violently kicking me out of the top ten
, *sigh* just wait and see...revenge is upon Ya)
EDIT: About Eau Rouge let's listen to an educated opinion quoted from that impressive Knowledge Source which is wikipedia:
As former F1 World Champion Fernando Alonso explains: "You come into the corner downhill, have a sudden change [of direction] at the bottom and then go very steep uphill. From the cockpit, you cannot see the exit and as you come over the crest, you don't know where you will land. It is a crucial corner for the timed lap, and also in the race, because you have a long uphill straight afterwards where you can lose a lot of time if you make a mistake. But it is also an important corner for the driver's feeling. It makes a special impression every lap, because you also have a compression in your body as you go through the bottom of the corner. It is very strange - but good fun as well." [5]
The challenge for drivers has always been to take Eau Rouge-Raidillon flat out. Regular touring cars can take the corner at 160180 km/h, Formula One at over 300 km/h.[6] This is due to the huge amount of downforce on the cars. World Champion Jacques Villeneuve once spoke of the effects of downforce saying that to get through the corner they have to go faster as the faster the car is going the more downward force there is, thus explaining the phenomenon of Eau Rouge flat out.
Still, a loss of control in this section often leads to very heavy shunt as usually the rear-end of the car is lost and the impact is most of the times lateral. Eau Rouge has claimed several victims over the years, including Stefan Bellof in a Porsche sportscar, Guy Renard during the 24h of Spa-Francorchamps in 1990 in a Toyota Corolla GT and also caused Alex Zanardi's in 1993 and Jacques Villeneuve's spectacular off in qualifying in 1999, which he described as "My best-ever crash", followed by his team-mate Ricardo Zonta's similar accident, leading cartoonist Jim Bamber to show BAR boss Craig Pollock telling Zonta: "Jacques is the quickest through Eau Rouge, so go out there and do exactly what Jacques does "
Last edited:
The Alonso quote is interesting. But I had a look at the full page, and really, it summarises what is wrong with Wikipedia; it's just some guy in a room somewhere blurting out his own opinion, with no references, no citations.
"Still, a loss of control in this section often leads to very heavy shunt as usually the rear-end of the car is lost and the impact is most of the times lateral." - Most of the time lateral impact? Says who? Apart from the fact that this is nonsense, there are no citations to back up this point. I'm just amazed how idiotic people are to miss the fact that it's supposed to be an encyclopedia, and not some damn magazine review.
Anyway, I'm still not sure how right they got Eau Rouge/Raidillon in SCC. The completely messed it up in FC. But at least it's much improved in SCC.
"Still, a loss of control in this section often leads to very heavy shunt as usually the rear-end of the car is lost and the impact is most of the times lateral." - Most of the time lateral impact? Says who? Apart from the fact that this is nonsense, there are no citations to back up this point. I'm just amazed how idiotic people are to miss the fact that it's supposed to be an encyclopedia, and not some damn magazine review.
Anyway, I'm still not sure how right they got Eau Rouge/Raidillon in SCC. The completely messed it up in FC. But at least it's much improved in SCC.
Last edited:
Similar threads
