Sciaru BRZFRS (BreezeFrees)

[Omnis]

Good roads in Florida? Nope. South Florida? Nope. North Florida? Maybe... but the hills are steep and are fun if you enjoy seeing whether you'll make it to the top.

Conclusion: Pretty much-- nope.

edit: Oh and if you try to have fun up there you pretty much kill yourself. My grandma's neighbor had terminal colon cancer. Used to take joyrides around the state every weekend. He died north of Ocala.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Good roads in Florida? Nope. South Florida? Nope. North Florida? Maybe... but the hills are steep and are fun if you enjoy seeing whether you'll make it to the top.

Conclusion: Pretty much-- nope.

edit: Oh and if you try to have fun up there you pretty much kill yourself. My grandma's neighbor had terminal colon cancer. Used to take joyrides around the state every weekend. He died north of Ocala.

I was under the impression that Florida din't have any big hills, I had no idea they had anything steep. I like hilly roads, but maybe that's because I have lots of experience with them. For example, one of my friends who has two Porshes, a Jag, and a 500 Abarth, loves driving quickly up this road.

 

[homeforsummer]

I like hilly roads

That's another reason I prefer the fun roads I've driven in the U.S. to those in the UK. In the U.S. you twist your way up a hill and back down the other side. In the UK it's more like a rally with constant dips and crests to catch you by surprise. By the time your stomach has traveled up and down your torso and your brain has hit the top of your head for the umpteenth time, it gets a bit dull.

Leading vaguely back to the 86, it's another reason I feel like that car would work over there better than it does here. Suits fast, open curves where you can exploit its balance. UK roads are a bit more point'n'shoot, which is where hot hatchbacks really score. Pick a corner, tip it in, nail it. Great fun and better suited to scratchy, bumpy roads where you can't see around the next corner.

 

[Omnis]

Florida starts undulating once you go north of orlando. Full on hilly up near tallahassee/alabama. And, you know, where there are hillies there tend to be billies. Just look at a voting map and that's where the hills are.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Good roads in Florida? Nope. South Florida? Nope. North Florida? Maybe... but the hills are steep and are fun if you enjoy seeing whether you'll make it to the top.

Conclusion: Pretty much-- nope.

edit: Oh and if you try to have fun up there you pretty much kill yourself. My grandma's neighbor had terminal colon cancer. Used to take joyrides around the state every weekend. He died north of Ocala.

Steel hills? Making it to the top? The highest point in Florida is 345ft...

 

[Omnis]

Dude, look up High Road in Tally. That sumbitch was steep. And straight as an arrow too. Boring.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Dude, look up High Road in Tally. That sumbitch was steep. And straight as an arrow too. Boring.

Steep compared to what? Florida is the Flattest state in the US. Likely North America. Possibly the Western Hemisphere.

 

[homeforsummer]

Steep compared to what?

The rest of Florida.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Take this with a huge grain of salt. I'll believe it when I see it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/02/toyota-gt86-turbo-convertible-sedan-variants-report/

 

[eSZee]

I almost want to believe it.
Knowing that sales are sub-par it makes sense for them to introduce new models based on the same platform.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I'll believe it when I see it. All three versions would significantly change the dynamics of the car.

 

[McLaren]

Actually, I'd say owning one would be less frustrating in the U.S. than it is in the UK, even considering the expectations of power over there. For exactly the reasons I mentioned above - more, and better twisty roads over there, and places to overtake rather than miles of hedgerows and endless slow-moving traffic you can't see past.

Unfortunately, I don't live in those regions. In Texas, the best driving roads are 40-60 minutes out of Dallas & even then, a big chunk of them are long straights where something like a Porsche can make real use of til' the next bit of twistys.

It's why the modern breed of turbocharged hot hatchbacks is so perfect for UK roads at the moment. They're fast, but they also feel fast without having to really wring its neck, which you have to do in the '86. And because they've got that low-down grunt, they can overtake where you might think twice in the BRZ/FRS.

I think an 86 would suit me down to the ground in the U.S. In the UK, I'm not so sure it would.

As for getting accustomed to power, I can very much understand that - the first few times I drove ~500hp cars there was a bit of a "woah" moment, but it's made 200hp cars, which used to feel very rapid to me, feel almost normal now.

That said, for a daily driver I don't really get that, because I tend to drive a bit quicker after I'm comfortable with a car anyway. My Honda is not a fast car, but it feels less slow now than it did when I bought it because I've got used to making the most of it.

A daily for me, has to have features that make it comfortable & enjoyable because I don't spend the majority of my commute above 80Mph. So those times that I may get frisky, I want it to be something that can easily outrun my car. I can sacrifice the comforts altogether if the power is high enough to just obliterate what I'm accustomed to, say a C6 Z06. The BreezeFrees just doesn't tick my requirements as ultimately fun as it is & modifying to get to my car's level would put me back at square one.

 

[homeforsummer]

The BreezeFrees just doesn't tick my requirements

Perfectly understandable 👍 To be honest, it doesn't tick mine either, but that's mainly because I can't afford one

 

[niky]

I was thinking about the "slow sales" discussion, so I looked it up, as I was under the impression that 86 sales were still better than the MX-5. Some interesting tidbits came up:

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/2013-scion-fr-sales-not-slow-d-expect-140013395.html

Chevrolet Camaro 2013 (US): 80,567

Ford Mustang 2013 (US): 77,186

Scion FR-S 2013 (US): 18,327

Subaru BRZ 2013 (US): 8,587

Nissan 370Z 2013 (US): 6,561

Mazda MX-5 2013 (US): 5,780

Toyota GT 86 2013 (Europe): 5,079

Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2013 (Canada): 1,813

Subaru BRZ 2013 (Europe): 865

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/hyundai-genesis-sales-figures.html

Since Hyundai USA doesn't break down sales of the Genesis series in to sedans and coupes, let's estimate. Canadian GC sales are 63.061% of Genesis sales in Canada. Assuming a similar proportion of the USA's 32,330 Genesii are Coupes, that gives us about 20,388 GCs. Not bad for a model that, despite the new engines, is mostly a facelift of a 2008 car, as opposed to the 86, which is all-new.

It seemed odd not to mention what MX-5 sales were in Europe, so I looked those up:

http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/mazda/mazda-mx5/
http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/toyota/toyota-gt86/
http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/Subaru/Subaru-BRZ/

Mazda MX-5 2013 (Europe): 6,050

Toyota GT 86 2013 (Europe): 6,080

Subaru BRZ 2013 (Europe): 865

So, while the 86 twins do better than the MX-5 in the United States, they do worse than the MX-5 in Europe... despite being much, much newer than the NC Miata, a car which has been out for nearly a decade. Sales peaked right after introduction, and year-to-date numbers in Europe paint a picture of decreasing demand afterwards, with the "ber" months of 2013 registering lower sales than the "ber" months of 2014, and the start of 2014 being weaker than the start of 2013. Not good signs.

-

Also, worryingly, sales are also declining in the USA and Canada:

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05/scion-fr-s-sales-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05/subaru-brz-sales-figures.html

The BR-Z is getting stronger, probably due to the price drop. But it looks fairly possible that a new MX-5 would eat into that market share greatly when it comes out in the next two years.

These are not great numbers. Especially not in the sense that they would tempt Nissan to follow up on the IDx or Chevrolet on the Code130R with production models.

Too bad for us.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm guessing some of the reason for the MX-5's stronger sales compared to the 86 in Europe is that we get a lower-priced 1.8 version that starts at around £18k in the UK - £7-8k less than the cheapest BRZ/86.

A budget model like that isn't on sale in the States, and given how little price difference there is between the MX-5 and BRZ/FR-S over there, most people will opt for the newer car.

I'm reasonably convinced it's a price thing, at least in Europe. £25k is just too much really. I'm not a power freak so I'd choose the 86 over any of the hot hatches on sale in Europe at the mo, but for everyone else £25k is Golf GTI money - for which you get more power, a couple of extra (usable) seats and a better badge.

For £20k, sales would climb quite quickly I reckon. Trim some kit and sell it for £18k like the MX-5 and they'd rocket out of the showrooms.

What's depressing is that the 86 is about £14.5k in Japan. That's about $24.5k so to be honest, it's only a grand cheaper than the FR-S is in the U.S, but people are less hung up bang per buck here than they are in the States so at that price they'd fly out in the UK. For comparison, that money gets you a just-about-base-level Ford Focus here. 0-60 in over 14 seconds. I cannot imagine sales not going crazy if we got it cheaper here.

Edit: The stupid thing is, I'm almost certain I could import an 86 from Japan myself for a great deal less than buying one in the UK. I'd be surprised if it scraped above £20k.

Edit #2: It wouldn't have the stupid spoiler we get in the UK either.

 

[niky]

That's a good point. The US doesn't get anything less than a 2.0, though it does get a base 5-speed variant. (we don't get that tranny, but I hear that some owners prefer it on track to the 6MT).

Pretty sure your ridiculous taxes play a part. As does the distance. Having cars made only in Japan will guarantee uncompetitive prices in the European market. (Same issue we have here with some European cars)

 

[homeforsummer]

Yeah, 20% sales tax here, which doesn't help. Though on a £14.5k car that's an extra £3k or so. Shipping, exchange rate, probably some outside-of-EU import taxes and possibly a healthy profit margin on top all probably contribute to the ridiculous sum we pay.

I've not yet checked what Japan pays for a basic MX-5. It'd probably be quite depressing. At least you can get those cheaply used here, whereas used 86s haven't dipped below about £18k yet. Probably because that's the point at which everyone will happily snap them up, keeping used prices high...

 

[Azuremen]

Not sarcasm. This is the cruel fate we all share:

Come out West, the world is quite a bit different here. Florida is absolutely horrible to drive in, from all my experiences.

I'll echo others on my issue with the FR-S/things is the lack of power at the price point and the real world performance simply aren't enough to merit purchasing it over other options. I can spend a little more and pick up a used 335i and get gobs more of everything, or I can opt for one of the many turbo 4 cylinders on the market that put down more power, torque, and fuel economy numbers. And if I want minimal features for fun, I can just strip my current car and run some 215's and have a drift machine.

It is just in an odd spot at the price, with far too much competition offering more real world things. But damn, it does look good.

 

[eSZee]

The BR-Z is getting stronger, probably due to the price drop. But it looks fairly possible that a new MX-5 would eat into that market share greatly when it comes out in the next two years.

These are not great numbers. Especially not in the sense that they would tempt Nissan to follow up on the IDx or Chevrolet on the Code130R with production models.

Too bad for us.

BRZ price drop in USA/CANADA?

 

[CodeRedR51]

I'm not gonna complain about the power, but I will agree that the FR-S/BRZ are too expensive.

And I'm pretty sure the IDx is confirmed for production.

 

[McLaren]

BRZ price drop in USA/CANADA?

Indeed. It used to cost somewhere just under $30K when it was introduced because Toyota was going to be producing far more of their cars & the BRZ came with a lot of options standard, iirc. Now, it appears it took a drastic cut & MSRPs at $25,000. So, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Looking into it, the '14 model is $500 more than the '13 model, too so I wonder when the drop came into effect. More so, where are these cars at because when I was looking, I was still in the ballpark of paying $30K when all was said & done.

 

[eSZee]

Indeed. It used to cost somewhere just under $30K when it was introduced because Toyota was going to be producing far more of their cars & the BRZ came with a lot of options standard, iirc. Now, it appears it took a drastic cut & MSRPs at $25,000. So, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Looking into it, the '14 model is $500 more than the '13 model, too so I wonder when the drop came into effect. More so, where are these cars at because when I was looking, I was still in the ballpark of paying $30K when all was said & done.

There was an increase of $100 for 2014, I can't find anything about a price drop.
I've read of dramatic cuts in EU from incentives but nothing stateside.

About finding the cars at MSRP prices, it makes sense. Majority of people who wanted the brz, placed orders with subaru months and months in advance. Dealers rarely had any cars on the lot and if they did order dealer cars, they probably went for optioned out cars because of the high demand.

 

[McLaren]

There was an increase of $100 for 2014, I can't find anything about a price drop.
I've read of dramatic cuts in EU from incentives but nothing stateside.

Did some further digging & you're right, it's not really a price drop, per say. But, more of a result of the car's hype dying & dealers no longer marking up vehicles.

If anything, it would appear that Subaru dealers are taking advantage of the BRZ's scarcity by marginally pushing prices above MSRP. Subaru spokespeople claim that most BRZs sold last month were in base Premium trim, but TrueCar's average transaction price was $29,095, a couple thousand more than the Premium's base price of $26,265. You can attribute some of that to higher trim levels and automatic transmissions--the Subaru BRZ Limited starts at $28,260, and an automatic transmission is an $1100 option on either trim--but many dealers advertising BRZs online are fetching between $27,000 and $32,000 for a base model manual car, which would indicate that some are placing some markup on the BRZ.

Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/featur...n-fr-s-prices-stay-flat-155265/#ixzz30mmdXPjz

 

[VXR]

An 86 four door would be a delightful thing, but DOA in the UK if it was priced near 30k.

 

[jjaisli]

Something I imagine we won't see in the US, despite Toyota howling about the slow sales of the FR-S versus the BRZ. Its weird how the press here chalks it all up to "not enough power," when I think anyone with sense of mind would realize the cars are overpriced by about $1500. Mark them down, scream about it on the proper automotive blogs, and the fanatics will come calling. Priced competitively with cars that would be frequently cross-shopped with it (ie, WRX, Focus ST, Fiesta ST and GTI), they'd do a hell of a lot better.

The FR-S has been outselling the BRZ by a ratio of more than 3:1 since day 1. The ratio has come down now to around 2:1 (in 2014 sales), and that's more than likely due to Subaru dealers initially selling for a premium over sticker, who are now willing to deal on price. Where as Scion sticks to their pure-price model and won't deal unless it's last year's model.

2012 sales:
FR-S: 11,417 / BRZ: 4,144

2013 sales:
FR-S: 18,327 / BRZ: 8,587

Likewise, I disagree about the car being overpriced. If anything, it's the bargain of the decade. The Focus ST and GTI, when loaded up with a few options, are all around the same price or in some cases more than a comparable FR-S/BRZ. The Fiesta ST can be had for less. But all of those cars are FWD. The WRX is considerably more (if you want one that really goes)

That's an interesting one. Over here the BRZ is the slower seller (though neither is exactly flying out of the showrooms - you still see a hell of a lot more MX-5s).

It is in North America too. YSSMAN is wrong about that.

Isn't the MX5 outselling both the fr-s and brz while costing just as much and having less power?

No, not even close. But again, it's not fair to judge a car (MX-5) that is in it's 5th/6th year of the current model vs the FT86 platform that's still selling well because it's 'new'.

Total FT86 sales (FR-S & BRZ combined) vs MX5 in the United States:
2012: FT86: 15,561 / MX-5: 6,305
2013: FT86: 26,914 / MX-5: 5,780
(You can pull these right of cars.com)

The numbers for 2012 were slightly off since the '86 was only available for sale starting around April of 2012. First year sales numbers of any model are normally higher. But even if you compare 2nd year sales of the current (3rd generation) MX-5, it sold 15,075 in 2007. Once the 86 platform is in it's 4th or 5th year without a refresh, I'm pretty sure it will have sunk considerably and leveled off.

Let's face it: there are no curvy roads to enjoy driving the BRZFRS. All of us just want something practical that can get great fuel economy, yet overtake with ease.

That's just silly. Not everybody lives in FL or TX. I live in an area full of curvy switch-backs, elevation changes and practically no traffic lights. And I'm in Northern NJ--just an hour from Manhattan. (It's not like I'm in Colorado or something).

 

[eSZee]

No, not even close. But again, it's not fair to judge a car (MX-5) that is in it's 5th/6th year of the current model vs the FT86 platform that's still selling well because it's 'new'.

Total FT86 sales (FR-S & BRZ combined) vs MX5 in the United States:
2012: FT86: 15,561 / MX-5: 6,305
2013: FT86: 26,914 / MX-5: 5,780
(You can pull these right of cars.com)

The numbers for 2012 were slightly off since the '86 was only available for sale starting around April of 2012. First year sales numbers of any model are normally higher. But even if you compare 2nd year sales of the current (3rd generation) MX-5, it sold 15,075 in 2007. Once the 86 platform is in it's 4th or 5th year without a refresh, I'm pretty sure it will have sunk considerably and leveled off.

Yeah, looked up the numbers a couple days after my post. I was very surprised.
By the way, the NC is already at the end of it's 9th model year as the 2015s are coming next month I believe.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

If I wrote a review of the FR-S, would anyone be interested in reading it? I'll have access* to my dad's all summer, so I think it'd be kind of cool to write a review which incorporates both an owner's impression and an initial impression. Obviously I'm no journalist, though.

*Well, I'll get to drive it from time to time, I don't know how much.

 

[homeforsummer]

Likewise, I disagree about the car being overpriced. If anything, it's the bargain of the decade. The Focus ST and GTI, when loaded up with a few options, are all around the same price or in some cases more than a comparable FR-S/BRZ. The Fiesta ST can be had for less. But all of those cars are FWD. The WRX is considerably more (if you want one that really goes)

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it's the "bargain of the decade".

I've defended the car's performance from the start, as I know there's more to a car than straight-line speed. But it's hard to ignore that all those cars you just quoted are quite a bit quicker in a straight line. Okay, touch-and-go with the Fiesta, but you'd need to be absolutely hammering the FR-S/BRZ to keep up with a well-driven Fiesta ST.

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of people look at numbers first and subjective things like handling and feedback second. And on that front the car is at a disadvantage, because for the price there are plenty of quicker cars available.

Knock a fifth off the price, and it really would be a bargain. As it is? Not so much. It's competitively-priced, but no more.

Here in the UK, it's fairly uncompetitively priced, given a 370Z with a hundred horsepower extra or whatever it has can be had for about a grand more. Again, I'd personally choose the 86 - but if there's one area the car can't really be justified, it's on price.

 

[eSZee]

If I wrote a review of the FR-S, would anyone be interested in reading it? I'll have access* to my dad's all summer, so I think it'd be kind of cool to write a review which incorporates both an owner's impression and an initial impression. Obviously I'm no journalist, though.

*Well, I'll get to drive it from time to time, I don't know how much.

The car has been covered and reviewed more than anything in the past decade. Would you be able to tell us anything that hasn't already been mentioned?

 

[jjaisli]

EDIT: Sorry, I missed this whole last page of posts. Mea culpa. The perils of (1) only checking every other week and (2) posting on the side when I'm working.

Florida starts undulating once you go north of orlando. Full on hilly up near tallahassee/alabama. And, you know, where there are hillies there tend to be billies. Just look at a voting map and that's where the hills are.

I actually went to College for 1 year, about 45 minutes north of Sebring. And not too far from 'spook hill'. And there were actually some nice hills in and amongst the orange groves in that area. Fine if you live there but I wouldn't drive from somewhere else just to get there. That would be a disappointment. Either way, the year I spent in Florida taught me that it's a great place to visit but I would NEVER want to live there. And that was 25 years ago.


@niky Yeah, sorry. Most of what I wrote was covered in your post above. However...

I'm guessing some of the reason for the MX-5's stronger sales compared to the 86 in Europe is that we get a lower-priced 1.8 version that starts at around £18k in the UK - £7-8k less than the cheapest BRZ/86.

Yes, I agree with this as well. The GT86/BRZ is generally priced a bit higher vs the base MX-5 in Switzerland as well and it's enough that it makes a difference. Where as the cars are almost identically priced in North America.

I'll echo others on my issue with the FR-S/things is the lack of power at the price point and the real world performance simply aren't enough to merit purchasing it over other options. I can spend a little more and pick up a used 335i and get gobs more of everything, or...

I think the 86 as a daily driver IS a bit of a compromise. It's certainly more practical than an MX5. But you quickly realize what it can and can't do. The big plus for me is that I can fit 4 extra wheels/tires in the car (with the rear seats folded) along with a pump jack, some tools and an overnight bag. And that's not something I could do in my old Miata.

If I wrote a review of the FR-S, would anyone be interested in reading it? I'll have access* to my dad's all summer, so I think it'd be kind of cool to write a review which incorporates both an owner's impression and an initial impression. Obviously I'm no journalist, though.

*Well, I'll get to drive it from time to time, I don't know how much.

Sure, let's see it.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it's the "bargain of the decade".

Yeah, perhaps a bit overstated. But it's certainly a bargain in North America.

Okay, touch-and-go with the Fiesta, but you'd need to be absolutely hammering the FR-S/BRZ to keep up with a well-driven Fiesta ST.

That depends where.

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of people look at numbers first and subjective things like handling and feedback second.

Yes I'd have to agree.