Setup Vs. Setup

[MacRoadster]

Harder springs is better, but if too much might be a problem...
The car might become too "nervous" to drive, you might have traction problems (drifting too much), get lots of understeer (if too hard at the front), get lots of oversteer (if too hard at the rear).

If you don't have any of this, then go harder

 

[sucahyo]

Harder springs is better, but if too much might be a problem...
The car might become too "nervous" to drive, you might have traction problems (drifting too much), get lots of understeer (if too hard at the front), get lots of oversteer (if too hard at the rear).

If you don't have any of this, then go harder

Yes, thats why I use
Damper Bound: 1/1
Damper Rebound: 5/5

And for very oversteer elise 190 on red rock Camber: 12.0/0.0

It seems that the damper bound must have to be set on 1 on many setting, I still don't see any benefit (at least for my driving) to use any higher value. Spoon integra still driveable (on tarmac) with 20.0/20.0 using 1 on damper bound.

What car that you think is very nervous? We can experiment on that

 

[MacRoadster]

It seems that the damper bound must have to be set on 1 on many setting, I still don't see any benefit (at least for my driving) to use any higher value. Spoon integra still driveable (on tarmac) with 20.0/20.0 using 1 on damper bound.

What car that you think is very nervous? We can experiment on that

Any small light weight car tends to be "nervous", like the Elise, MR2, Europa, etc...
The reason why you don't feel it it's because you use dampers at 1... if you use harder springs for the same damper values you'll see what i mean. Try different spring settings with a medium damper value (always the same), and you'll feel it.

With harder springs your car can handle better the weight transfers when you corner, brake or accelerate. The car will have quicker responses, but if this happens too quickly your tyres will loose it's grip...
Dampers define how your car absorbs the road bumps/undulations. Try different values and watch how your car will handle when you pass over the rumble strips...

By the way... you're driving at 20fps!? That's driving in sloooooow motion...

 

[sucahyo]

Any small light weight car tends to be "nervous", like the Elise, MR2, Europa, etc...
The reason why you don't feel it it's because you use dampers at 1... if you use harder springs for the same damper values you'll see what i mean. Try different spring settings with a medium damper value (always the same), and you'll feel it.

Yes using bound damper at 2 will be enough to make the car jump around at 20.0/20.0 spring rate. But are there any reason to use higher bound damper value? Why should I use higher value if it only make the car unstable/drift/jump? Usually I only change the Rebound value (to 5) to reduce car up and down after passing bump.

Driving at 20fps is calming , but not enjoyable when drifting......

 

[MacRoadster]

I sometimes increase it to reduce understeer/oversteer, i remember doing it in Red Rock with the Spoon Integra...

Having very low damper values makes the car to have less contact with the ground, giving you less control over it and can become unstable too, specially at high speeds.
With higher values you have more control over it, making it more nervous and also becoming unstable/drifting if too high.
You just need to find the right balance, and one that suits your driving style.

 

[sucahyo]

I sometimes increase it to reduce understeer/oversteer, i remember doing it in Red Rock with the Spoon Integra...

Having very low damper values makes the car to have less contact with the ground, giving you less control over it and can become unstable too, specially at high speeds.
With higher values you have more control over it, making it more nervous and also becoming unstable/drifting if too high.
You just need to find the right balance, and one that suits your driving style.

Maybe you miss my point. I don't say to use 1 value for both bound and rebound, I use it only for bound.

My theory:
Bound is when the spring compressed when meeting with bump, the higher the damper value the more the asorbing power. By absorbing means the power goes to the car body. Using higher value will make the body receive more force. Using lower value make the body receive less force.
Using 0 damper means that the spring will eternally goes compressed and expanded continually. To reduce the effect, the damper must be set to higher value. But because there are 2 separate setting, we have the option to only use rebound damper.

In short: to reduce boing boing, I use higher rebound damper (only), bound damper is set to 1. To reduce jump when meeting bump I use lower rebound damper. My setting is the balance between these two.

When the car is boing boing (after passing bump), the wheel do not meet the road continuously, it will boing boing too. Making the car unstable, especially on corner.
When the car meet bump, the jump is measured by bound damper, ride height and spring ratio. For minimum jump use lowest bound damper, highest ride height (IMO) and lowest spring ratio.

My proof:
europa on redrock valley, just playing safe not really trying to win, I think good driver should have no problem beating GTONE and trueno using dirtiest method:

Using:
Springs: 20.0/20.0
Damper Bound: 1/1
Damper Rebound: 5/5
Camber: 12.0/0.0 (europa, to reduce oversteer 👎 )
Camber: 0.0/0.0 (trueno, neutral 👍 )
Toe: 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer: 7/7
Downforce: 0.42/0.70
LSD: 1/1/1

on trueno, using 2.0/2.0 spring rate give me lower cornering speed and lap time, and I feel the car has less grip. Even if 20.0/20.0 spring rate is still drivable, I usually only use 16.0/16.0.

How do you think about my setting? If you have the time to try, also try it with 5/5 damper bound (other setting same).

 

[MacRoadster]

I'm not sure if we have the same idea of what is damper bound/rebound...

When your car goes over a bump, as soon as the wheel meets the bump, the damper bound starts to work. If your damper bound is too low the impact will make the wheel jump, not the car (unless your ride height and springs are low too), loosing contact with the ground. The car looses directional precision, feels like floating.
With higher damper bound the wheel stays on the ground, and with too high bound settings the car will jump because suspension didn't compressed fast enough to absorb the impact.

When the wheel reaches the top of the bump, and starts it's downward movement, it's when rebound starts to work. With too low rebound settings whe wheel will fly (again not the car), because suspension doesn't extends fast enough to send the wheel back to the road.
With higher settings the wheel stays on the ground following the bump, but if the values are too high, the suspension will extend too quickly and the car will jump.

I tried your settings for the Elise at Seattle Short, and 1st thing i noticed was a big loss of directional control, the car was hard to put into the corners, even with you using a minimum front Toe value! I had to increase rear Toe, and lower and softer the front, to make it corner like i'm used too...

I also don't like to use so high camber values (12! wow)... a bit helps cornering, too much (at the front) gives understeer, and you also loose braking power and traction since the tyre has less contact with the ground in a straight line...

Back to GTR now, i only go to GT2 once in a while these days...

 

[Jmac279]

BTW, 6:13 isn't a very good time for the Europa @ Red Rock Valley ...

 

[sucahyo]

It seems we have the same idea.

If your damper bound is too low the impact will make the wheel jump

Yes, the wheel will jump, but this will not make the car loosing contact to the ground because the car itself is not jumping. To make the wheel go back to the road faster we use harder spring.

With higher damper bound the wheel stays on the ground, and with too high bound settings the car will jump because suspension didn't compressed fast enough to absorb the impact.

What do you mean stays on the ground? Won't it have to jump when it meet bump? I think it will still jump but take the car to jump along more. The car jump because the power that absorbed by damper goes to the car body. The jumping power doesn't just disappear, it have to be placed somewhere (momentum?)

low bound damper = wheel jumping more = car jumping less
high bound damper = wheel jumping less = car jumping more
soft spring rate = wheel go back slower (less force)= car jumping less
hard spring rate = wheel go back faster (more force)= car jumping more

With higher settings the wheel stays on the ground following the bump

Isn't it springs job to follow the road contour? and the damper there to prevent it?
I think dampers job is to stop movement.

On very bumpy tarmac using 2.0/2.0 spring rate with 1.0/1.0 damper will make the car less reactive to the bump. I cross the bump often on trial mountain and using lower bound damper really help me.

I also don't like to use so high camber values (12! wow)... a bit helps cornering, too much (at the front) gives understeer, and you also loose braking power and traction since the tyre has less contact with the ground in a straight line...

Yes, I want it understeer, but it still doesn't. When you use 20.0/20.0 spring rate, you don't have much choice. I prefer making the car understeer by maxing camber than using downforce or different tire (on same spring rate). Besides MR is rear wheel drive, I still have rear wheel traction. With these setting the elise or europa still little oversteer in redrock valley and rome city course. I can drive elise or europa with these setting on redrock valley and rome city course without spinning.

BTW, 6:13 isn't a very good time for the Europa @ Red Rock Valley ...

Yes, I know, thats my true skill ..........
I think my driving skill is bellow these forum average, so I hope using 2.500 final drive for faster straight and hardest spring rate for faster cornering can make up a little (3 seconds on RR valley!). I think these setting should not be used by good driver to make it fair .

 

[MacRoadster]

Yes, the wheel will jump, but this will not make the car loosing contact to the ground because the car itself is not jumping. To make the wheel go back to the road faster we use harder spring.

The car doesn't need to jump to loose contact with the ground, if the suspension compresses more than the bump height.
Let's not mix springs here. They affect both bound and rebound, they work like a general setting, being the dampers a fine tunning where you can tweak bound and rebound individually.
If you use only the springs for that, you're not taking advantage of the possibility of adjusting bound and rebound individually.

What do you mean stays on the ground? Won't it have to jump when it meet bump? I think it will still jump but take the car to jump along more.

Yes, but only if they're too hard. In the ideal setting the car stays stable and the wheel follows the bump.
I was saying "jump" as "jump of the ground, loosing contact with the ground" not "jumping because the bump is there, and so it has to go up".

The car jump because the power that absorbed by damper goes to the car body. The jumping power doesn't just disappear, it have to be placed somewhere (momentum?)

No, the power shouldn't go to the car body, it should go back to the road. Otherwise would be like having no suspension and the car would be jumping on every bump. If the car jumps, the suspension (bound and/or rebound) is too hard.

On very bumpy tarmac using 2.0/2.0 spring rate with 1.0/1.0 damper will make the car less reactive to the bump. I cross the bump often on trial mountain and using lower bound damper really help me.

Yes, softer suspension helps on bumps, but if too soft the car becomes less responsive.

 

[Jmac279]

Yes, I know, thats my true skill ..........
I think my driving skill is bellow these forum average, so I hope using 2.500 final drive for faster straight and hardest spring rate for faster cornering can make up a little (3 seconds on RR valley!). I think these setting should not be used by good driver to make it fair .

I tried your settings and, in 3 runs, ran between 6:09 and 6:12 each time ...

By comparison, I run between 6:00 and 6:05 with my settings ...

 

[sucahyo]

Let's not mix springs here. They affect both bound and rebound, they work like a general setting, being the dampers a fine tunning where you can tweak bound and rebound individually.

Yes, spring reduce the jump speed by spring strength, damper reduce jump speed by acceleration limiter.

No, the power shouldn't go to the car body, it should go back to the road. Otherwise would be like having no suspension and the car would be jumping on every bump.

I don't agree, no way it will go back to the road, because the wheel is attached to the car! If the bump force the wheel to go up, the damper will deccelerate the wheel jump, the spring will force the wheel to go back to the road.
The power that goes to the car body is reduced by lower spring (wheel jump higher) and by lower damper (wheel jump deccelerate slower).
Pairing damper with solid steel replacing spring will make the car jump on every bump. Car with no damper will not jumping, but it wil go up and down continuously. There is video that demonstrate the danger of dead damper (very low damping) by top gear. It shows BMW 318 being slalomed. With live damper it went smooth, with dead damper it went boing boing and then spin in the middle of slalom.

Yes, softer suspension helps on bumps, but if too soft the car becomes less responsive.

Agree, but with 20.0/20.0 spring rate, the handling is very aggresive........

I tried your settings and, in 3 runs, ran between 6:09 and 6:12 each time ...
By comparison, I run between 6:00 and 6:05 with my settings ...

Well, your spring is already harder and using 20.0/20.0 is too high, I just proofing that using 20.0/20.0 spring rate is drivable only with 1.0/1.0 Damper Bound. Using hard spring rate with higher damper bound is undrivable. Your time shows that it still drivable.

Do you have faster time if your change your damper bound to 1.0/1.0 ?

BTW, my trueno(7.22) with smaller power than my spoon integra(5.85) can make competitive time in redrock valley because it have faster cornering speed (at least for me).

 

[MacRoadster]

I don't agree, no way it will go back to the road, because the wheel is attached to the car! If the bump force the wheel to go up, the damper will deccelerate the wheel jump, the spring will force the wheel to go back to the road.

And where did the spring got the power to send the wheel back to the road? I think suspension absorbs it and sends it back to the road, sure part its transfered to the car body, but the ideal would be to reflect it all...

The power that goes to the car body is reduced by lower spring (wheel jump higher) and by lower damper (wheel jump deccelerate slower).

This is it "The power that goes to the car body is reduced", where does the rest of the power goes? roooaaaad....

Car with no damper will not jumping, but it wil go up and down continuously. There is video that demonstrate the danger of dead damper (very low damping) by top gear. It shows BMW 318 being slalomed. With live damper it went smooth, with dead damper it went boing boing and then spin in the middle of slalom.

Yes, one more reason to use dampers, instead of having them at minimum...

Agree, but with 20.0/20.0 spring rate, the handling is very aggresive........

I agree, i wouldn't use springs 20/20 on trial mountain...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Sorry to interrupt guys..have we heard from -Batman- yet? I wanna try another track / car combo. If not, I'll go ahead and choose one.

 

[MacRoadster]

Sorry to interrupt guys..have we heard from -Batman- yet? I wanna try another track / car combo. If not, i'll go ahead and choose one.

Ooops... sorry Parnelli, got carried away... this thread went completely out of the purpose it was created.

Go ahead and choose a car/track. 👍

I won't post any lap times now, to avoid more discussions about what's more efficient and/or any competition, which was never the idea for this thread. The idea was just to try the different driving styles each one has, more for the fun than anything else.

And let's hope Batman returns, now with his new disc

 

[sucahyo]

I won't post any lap times now, to avoid more discussions about what's more efficient and/or any competition, which was never the idea for this thread. The idea was just to try the different driving styles each one has, more for the fun than anything else.

Sorry , I thought this thread is about how to make your car more enjoyable to win on some race ....., I am sorry everyone.

BTW, Jmac, I forgot to say thank you for testing my setting ...... My 3 second difference comes from using my usual 2.0/2.0 spring rate (best 1:13) vs your's 12.0/10.0 (best 1.10), I am using hard spring rate as starting point now. And thank's for the replay (I can play it now ), I keep playing it over and over 👍 .

 

[-Batman-]

hey guys....sorry it took so long. back in school and its a *****. come on? still waiting for the S4 track? You guys are big boys now chose one youselves. How about rock ridge or red rock or that red track lol...ill join back in on the next setup i dont want to start behind. Email me when it gets goin Greg_Kopoian22@hotmail.com

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Hey I don't care. This thread can be whatever it wants to be...I just personally don't get into lap times, my life is stressful enough, and trying to beat y'all is stressful! So if that's your game, go for it.

I'm also reading all the tune talk, which is really interesting, I just don't have much to add to it.

The way this thread started (in case you missed), back in the summer, Batman was asking us for tuning advice. MacR and me both answered at the same time but had radically different ways of setting up our cars. then we all decided to try each other's settings and see how they felt..if it was comfortable and driveable. So far, I've actually learned a few things from Mac. I'm sure you'll have some tricks to add as well, Sucahyo.

Anyways, Audi S4 at Red Rock...one of my fave tracks. Wish it was in frickin' GT3 instead of Super Speedway.

Springs: 11.0 - 10.0 kg/mm front to rear
Ride: 110 / 117 mm
B. Damper: 4/8
R. Damper: 3/5
Camber: 3.0°/2.5°
Toe: +.05 / 0.0
Stabilizer: 3/5

Brakes: 18/14

Tranny: Auto 12
1st: 2.531
2nd: 1.729
3rd: 1.273
4th: 0.982
5th: 0.771
6th: 0.672
Final: 3.925

Downforce: .47/.49
Lsd: 7/18/12 {front} 20/35/21 {Rear}
No traction controls

tires: All Super Soft
Drivetrain: all the best with full Stage 4 turbo.

I basically set my cars up to do certain things in replays for my viewing pleasure, and also to handle better, and finally to win sim races (in that order). I actually used an Audi S4 to win the GT World Cup once, which isn't all that easy.

Here I was trying to get rid of understeer. The S4 really wants to push all the way towards the wall so I was trying to diminish this. Also, I like to get it a bit sideways in the first chicane and also in the very last turn before the straight. I made 5th gear a bit tall so I wouldn't have to shift up when entering some of those turns. 6th gear is basically just to top off that long straight. My best time 1:15.814...tho I only did 2 laps.

 

[sucahyo]

Oh, ok then,
I post my time just for reference for my previous setting, because if I can have 1.10, I am sure everybody else will, because it seems that my skill is below this forum average. I think my winning is 90% tuning, 10% skill. If I don't win, I retune my car, if I still don't win then I chose faster car .

My S4 setting for red rock valley:
*edit*
Springs: 16.0/16.0
Ride height: 104 / 155
B. Damper: 1/1
R. Damper: 1/1
Camber: 1.5°/0.0°
Toe: +0.20 / -0.20
Stabilizer: 7/7

Brakes: 12/12

Tranny: Auto 1 on 4.500
1st: 2.775
2nd: 2.054
3rd: 1.676
4th: 1.398
5th: 1.192
6th: 1.038
Final: 2.500
it looks like this (most power on high gear).
|xxxxxx
|xxxxxx
xxx|xxx
xxxx|xx
xxxxx|x
xxxxxx|


Downforce: .47/.76
LSD front: 1/1/1, rear: 17/17/17
no TCSC
no ASCS

tires: All Super Soft
Full mods

my best time is 1.10 using auto, I am sure it is easy to beat .
My aim is to get faster high speed corner (neutral on high speed), but end up over steer on low speed or breaking. Your setting seems more stable than mine, but with more sideways.
*edit*
I make some retuning (suspension and downforce, no LSD), now I can get 1.09. I don't know what makes my time faster though.
I can get faster using 16/16 spring rate, 1:08.6xx

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Tried Sucahyo's settings. Gotta say the suspension is rock hard; I was expecting a more difficult drive, but GT2 poorly represents super strong suspension tuning (unlike GT1). There were a couple times in the chicanes when I hit a minor bump or the red & white apex grid and wound up on 2 wheels for a half second, but that is all. No drama, no bouncing...nothing like you'd experience in GT1!

The transmission tuned by Sucahyo's now famous 2.500 method is consistent, I'll say that. As long as you shift at redline (or wherever), the tach needle always lands in the same place: about 5,500 rpm. There were a couple times in which I found myself upshifting into the next gear just before I'd enter a corner to avoid overrevving, only to need a downshift a second later as I hit the brakes. (I'm lazy, I'd rather not have that extra shift ).

Finally, the brakes aren't tuned. The car stops, it slows, but I couldn't get it to do what I wanted (that sideways thing I like in the chicanes was gone with these settings).

All in all, it's an unusual setup with the minimum front height and max rear (classic drag race stuff) and I'm surprised that it actually works on the track! It does kill understeer, I'll say that. I could push the speed up to about 125 mph in the longer banked turns with minimal understeer. After this, the front just gave up. But,that's not bad. Not bad at all.

 

[MacRoadster]

Here's my settings:

Springs: 14.0/20.0
Ride Height: 104/110
Dampers Bound: 8/2
Dampers Rebound: 10/3
Camber: 2.0/0.0
Toe: 0.0/0.0
Stabilizers: 7/1
Brakes: 20/16

Gears:
1st: 2.350
2nd: 1.656
3rd: 1.294
4th: 1.030
5th: 0.856
6th: 0.725
Final: 4.050
Auto: 10

Downforce: 0.47/0.76
LSD: All front at 1, all rear at 56

Going to try your setups

EDIT: Just tried them.
Parnelli, your setup is exactly what i was expecting. Easy to drive and offering a relaxing driving
When taking the oversteer too far, the understeer was always there to avoid going for a spin, that's something i like and usually do in my setups too.
I just didn't liked your gearbox... loosing too much rpms when shifting.

Sucahyo, your dragster isn't bad, not bad at all. I also noticed that a low front could help to keep a good speed when cornering, but i wasn't so radical as you...
There's two things i didn't liked... your dampers ( no not again.. ) that make the car have that slow motion jump when going over rumble strips, same thing Parnelli said. And i also didn't liked the lack of some oversteer when going out of corner in full power, specially on that final corner. Oh and also the brakes, like Parnelli said they slow down the car but nothing happens... some oversteer would be useful.
Overall it's a fast setup, not a driving style that i like, but even so i was making about the same times i was doing with my setup.

 

[sucahyo]

Finally, the brakes aren't tuned. The car stops, it slows, but i couldn't get it to do what i wanted (that sideways thing i like in the chicanes was gone with these settings).

Yes, the brakes are default, I still learn how to tune it.

On gears, I make the rpm start at: 4885, 5385, 5505, 5627, 5747 on 6600rpm gear changing. You can get the exact same result by using auto 1 at any final drive as long as you set the same start rpm (I am using excel file https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71569). I still don't experiment much on gear but right now I am using 100rpm delta for high gear, and maximum delta for 2nd change to 3rd, with 1st and 2nd gear always lowest value (if the car start properly).

I try MacRoadster settings, I guess it should have the same time (looking at my sector time), but I keep making mistakes on the last corner (my counter steering is weak)...........

I try using some of MacRoadster settings, I found that I have better control 👍 .
Camber: 2.0/0.0
Toe: 0.0/0.0
Brakes: 20/16

 

[Jmac279]

I do 1:09s with the default suspension settings ... I think I can take off a couple seconds with some tuning ...

 

[Jmac279]

With a few tweaks and about 30 minutes, I'm down into the 1:07s consistantly

 

[sucahyo]

With a few tweaks and about 30 minutes, I'm down into the 1:07s consistantly

I try to race using default setting for spring rate and height, and I have just a little slower time than using my extreme setting, it means using extreme spring rate and height is unnecessary ....................
With same setting for:
Dampers Bound: 1/1, Dampers Rebound: 1/1, Camber: 2.0/0.0, Toe: 0.2/-0.2, Stabilizers: 7/7, Brakes: 20/16, Downforce: 0.47/0.76, no LSD

Using Springs: 20.0/20.0, Ride Height: 104/155, I can get 1:09.4xx
Using default Springs: 7.6/5.2, default Ride Height: 119/119, I can get 1:09.9x
Using Springs: 16.0/16.0, Ride Height: 104/155, I can get 1:08.6xx

 

[Jmac279]

I averaged 1:07.754 over 5 laps (practice laps) with my best being 1:07.415 and worst being 1:07.943 ...

My screenshot button isn't working for some reason (F8) ...

 

[sucahyo]

There's two things i didn't liked... your dampers ( no not again.. ) that make the car have that slow motion jump when going over rumble strips, same thing Parnelli said

I think what makes the car do slow motion jump is the spring rate, because when I try using 12.0/12.0 spring rate (1.0/1.0 - 1.0/1.0 dampers) , I can pass through the rumble strips without problem, even thought it make the steering feels less responsive, it gives more sideways but more stable on chicane. Using 8.0/2.0 - 10.0/3.0 dampers make the problem worse, and make the car feels jumpy on corner. With this I think I will use 1.0/1.0 - 1.0/1.0 dampers, with hard spring rate that don't make the car jump at bump. At RR valley, I get my best time using 16/16 spring rate.

I averaged 1:07.754 over 5 laps (practice laps) with my best being 1:07.415 and worst being 1:07.943 ...

My time is between 1:11 and 1:09, because I keep making mistakes on different corner ..............

BTW I try to use this car on deep forest, seattle city, trial montain, and smokey mountain north reverse (all with the same setting, with 12/12 springs), it's fun! many sideways .

 

[MacRoadster]

I think what makes the car do slow motion jump is the spring rate, because when I try using 12.0/12.0 spring rate (1.0/1.0 - 1.0/1.0 dampers) , I can pass through the rumble strips without problem, even thought it make the steering feels less responsive, it gives more sideways but more stable on chicane. Using 8.0/2.0 - 10.0/3.0 dampers make the problem worse, and make the car feels jumpy on corner. With this I think I will use 1.0/1.0 - 1.0/1.0 dampers, with hard spring rate that don't make the car jump at bump. At RR valley, I get my best time using 16/16 spring rate.

With my settings, 14/20 springs and harder dampers, i didn't had that... "bungee jumping" effect...

BTW I try to use this car on deep forest, seattle city, trial montain, and smokey mountain north reverse (all with the same setting, with 12/12 springs), it's fun! many sideways .

Red Rock it's one of the few tracks where i don't use the same setup that i use in most tracks.
It isn't one of my favorite tracks anyway... too wide, could land a Boeing 747 in there...

 

[Impreza STi]

...and then take off in said Boeing 747, without turning around...

 

[-Batman-]

And then land again.

Alright guys I have a free week, I'm back in the game. My setup was shockingly close to Parnelli's! Anyone want to start up a new one? I really miss this forum and GT2!