Setup Vs. Setup

[Parnelli Bone]

Really? You think it handles good? I disagree! I've rarely been able to win a kei car or any other race in a Beat without at least one moment of pure drama. I think maybe I should have forced a rule that we all drive Beats without the racing body, but it's too late now. You can see its poor behavior more. Truthfully, if you minimize the downforce, you can still see what I'm talking about.

It seems that when driven stock, the kickback from the factory suspension happens too fast when you apply the brakes, which makes the back-end hop a bit and (assuming your steering is too heavy) the Beat becomes very prone to a spin or at least a crablike sideways motion.

Between turns 2 and 3 (going up the hill) I noticed a bit of oversteer that forced me to countersteer. And in turns 4 and 5 (the right / left S-turn) presents another opportunity for some sideways stuff. In turn 6, if you take it wide there's no problem-but this too is tricky. I can only do it well, I've raced Tahiti several hundred times. I remember when I first started GT2 I raced a Beat in the Sunday Cup and had a hard time here.

Turn 7 (the famous Church L-corner) is of course one of the most fun...here I attempted to slide the Beat, which wasn't all too tough...the hard part is getting out of here without smacking the wall. I found I could hit about 63 mph reliably.

The next few turns (up the hill and over the rise) I thought would be more dramatic, but the Beat doesn't have enuff speed to really get much air. Damn! Maybe I shoulda got in a Mazda AZ-1 instead!

Anyways, here's my settings b-low

Springs: 3.6 / 5.0 kg/mm
Ride: 130 / 119 mm
B. Dampers: 3/2
R. Dampers: 3/1
Camber: 3.0°/0.5°
Toe: +.05/0.0
Stabilizer: 3/2

Braxe: 13/8 with normal stock pads (racing pads create too much reaction)

Gearbox Auto 8 with single clutch & sports fly.
1st: 2.870
2nd: 1.880
3rd: 1.300
4th: .990
5th: .810
Final: 5.714

Downforce: .12/.33
LSD: 27 / 21 / 2
Tires: Hard / Medium

With these settings I got the back end reasonably under control. Unfortunately, the payback was a bit more understeer than I liked...especially in the Church corner. Now I could safely pull 61 mph instead of 63...but the rest of the track was easier. I could nail turns 1 & 2 full on at 112 mph, hit the brakes up the hill and get a nice little slide into turn 3.

Turns 4, 5, & 6 (the S followed by the sharp right) were still tricky but much more controllable.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Sucahyo's Beat is such a difference from mine!

1st gear really tall. Remember that below 5,000 rpms, the Beat has poor torque...only slightly more than a lawnmower it seems! Even if I revved the engine really high (past 7,000 rpms while holding the parking brake) there was still a good 4 or 5 seconds when the clutch engaged, then the tachometer would dip 500 rpms or so, and then finally, the speed began to pick up. In my car, I could reliably get a good start from 5,000 rpms with little wait.

The rest of the 4 gears is a typical Sucahyo transmission...consistent shifting that lands in the exact spot on the torque band every time. When going past the grandstands where the pit lane is, 5th gear topped off exactly where it should...just past 8,500 rpms halfway into the redline area.

The suspension...yeah I had some issues, dude! Mostly the drag-race thing again. Going over the crest of hills, when needing to brake, and occasionally when driving in & out of one of Tahiti's dips, the back-end would haunch up like an uppity horse. The front is very low, which accentuates the grippiness, and led me to need more countersteer than usual. Kei cars in general have very grippy front-ends, and the Beat is no exception.

Combine the low, grippy front with the jacked up rear (where most of the weight is) and I found there was a lot of swishiness, a lot of sideways motion. Very good for drifts (like you said) but probly not so good for actual racing. I found I could start a drift just from downshifting, and I got some nice slides in and out of the Chapel corner, and finally caught a genuine hop when going over the hill that follows the Chapel.

When me & my brother were kids we had an AFX slot car racetrack and about 50 cars each. Driving Sucahyo's Beat reminded me of one of these slot cars.

 

[MacRoadster]

I've got an F Beat, finally.
Here's my settings:

Springs: 5.0/3.6
Ride height: 92/89
D Bound: 5/5
D Rebound: 5/5
Camber: 0.0°/0.0°
Toe: 0.00/0.00
Stabilizers: 1/4
Brakes: 16/16

Gears
1st: 3.525
2nd: 2.460
3rd: 1.808
4th: 1.463
5th: 1.240
Final: 3.800
Auto: 3

Downforce: 0.12/0.21
LSD: 56/56/56

I did some nice and fun driftings with these settings, i like that suspension. I just don't like much of gearbox, but it's ok i guess... the car has so low power for so many rpms... 👎

 

[Jmac279]

The rest of the 4 gears is a typical Sucahyo transmission...consistent shifting that lands in the exact spot on the torque band every time. When going past the grandstands where the pit lane is, 5th gear topped off exactly where it should...just past 8,500 rpms halfway into the redline area.

You realize he got that gear ratio strategy from me, right ?

Sorry, I'm just a stickler for getting credit

 

[MacRoadster]

You realize he got that gear ratio strategy from me, right ?

Sorry, I'm just a stickler for getting credit

...and he seems not always going for the 2.500 final drive anymore...

I just tried the setups, and i didn't liked much of sucahyo's settings, because the rear feels too loose when going over the hills. I think dragster style doesn't work well in this case... 👎

Parnelli's setup is better balanced and offers an easy driving (as usual ). I liked your 1st and 2nd gears but unfortunately i didn't liked 4th and 5th... too spaced.
I would like your 1st and 2nd gears with mine 4th and 5th

It seems my setup is more nervous than any of yours, so i'm wondering how you guys will drive it...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

You realize he got that gear ratio strategy from me, right ?

Sorry, I'm just a stickler for getting credit

No, I didn't know that he got it from you, but now that you mention it, I do remember those threads in which you wrote a very detailed discussion about torque & power bands and how to capture them via gearing. It does make sense tho.

Mac, actually it seems Kei cars can only accept a minimum of 3.000 for a final drive. If it went down to 2.500, we can be sure Sucahyo would have used this instead. I'm gonna try your Version F tomorrow. I got a Version Z btw.

In real life there were 4 versions...the J was the basic one. Versions F and C were special edition models painted metallic blue & green. Only several hundred of these were made. Version A is supposed to be the sportiest of them all. It had a limited slip and ABS brakes...not that it makes much difference in the game. Overall, there were only just over 33,000 Beats built, and most of them (like a third or 2/3rds or something like that) rolled off the assembly line in the first year of production.

 

[MacRoadster]

I'm gonna try your Version F tomorrow. I got a Version z btw.

I only had a version Z too, but since Sucahyo posted an F i thought better to get one too, just to be sure there's no differences between the cars, other than our setups.

For example, in the two R390s road versions, they have same stats but when you take them to the track, there's a small handling difference between them. Same for the two Castrol NSXs Mugen, same power/weight but they have a slightly different handling.

 

[Jmac279]

One of the R390s is longer, IIRC ...

 

[MacRoadster]

One of the R390s is longer, IIRC ...

Yeah, it might be. I think there´s also a small diference on size/wheelbase on the Castrol NSXs, or at least they have different rear wing and roof scoop. Don't know if it affects the handling or if is just for the looks... i mean if the game takes it into consideration.

But when i said stats i was thinking in power and weight, the ones that make bigger difference and we always use to compare cars.

 

[sucahyo]

I tune the beat f just for fun, so I make it handles like old porsche in NFS-PU (boing boing much), and make it sideways happy........... I want to use mugen beat at first, but thinking that everyone might use race modification, so I choose Beat F for the color, I don't like other Beat race color.
I test the 1000m time, the beat 91, Z, F have the same time, the mugen beat have 0.2 seconds faster time (stock). using 12/12 or no brake controller is the optimum braking for 20/20 spring rate.
I made the 1st and 2nd gear lowest thinking that I may never use it again after start, calculate the 5th gear to reach 200kmph, and make the 3th and 4th have incremental start rpm (at 1/40 top rpm) . And its true that I get gear tuning tips from Jmac, also from Macroadster.
I find that using hardest spring rate make the car very sensitives, this will make the tuning easier, in race I usually lowered it a little to reduce the bouncing.
I notice that using 20/20 on light car doesn't make the car boing as much as heavy car, so I think using higher spring rate than we usually do for heavy car will do. But it seems every body using half the jaguar's spring rate.

On the car test:
Parnelli Bone's: It seem's you are trying to overcome the car aggresiveness by reducing the car power too, it works, the car become more easy to drive. I feel the car as mild oversteer. But lowering the car power made your car slower on straight, mine can reach 200kmph (124mph) before 1st corner. My average time with your car is 2 second slower than mine or MacRoadster's (using hard tire). Your car is fast on corner but have very slow uphill acceleration.
MacRoadster's: Your car feels oversteer, but even with low spring rate, your car easily slide when jump on turning. But, if I drive carefully not to slide, your car is as fast as mine.

I prefer understeer for this car (MR drivetrain), for racing (grip driving) I use:
14/14 spring rate, 6.0/0.0 camber, 56/56/56 LSD (other setting same)

I post the wrong setting for my car gear, it should be:
3.517, 2.563, 2.068, 1.722, 1.476 (auto 1 on 5.400, using 3.000 final drive)

 

[sucahyo]

Not much activity, maybe its time for the new car ?

BTW I found PEC code for used car garage (I only found PAL version, but it also works on NTSC 1.2, maybe others too)
The address is (4 bytes)
pal000 800b9648 (tested SCES-02380)
ntsc12 800b9618 (tested SCUS-94455)
ntsc11 800B93E8
ntsc10 800B9078
japan0 800B9A78

if you find value 1B0D7XXX (reversed search), then you are on the right address

I usually find reversed hexadecimal 4 byte, then add the address manually
the car code is in the attachments (from www.rogs.dial.pipex.com)

when you want to get '89 r32:
10D8 1870 D8 10 70 18 Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) '89
10DC 1870 DC 10 70 18 [R]Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) '89
enter 187010d8 on above address

FTO:
E65C 1701 5C E6 01 17 [R]Mitsubishi FTO LM Edition
enter 1701E65C on above address

buy the car on daihatsu or honda used car dealer on sub 10000 prices .

 

[-Batman-]

you lost the batman lol

 

[sucahyo]

you lost the batman lol

Ah yes, sorry, I still don't test your car ............

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Go on & lead the way, Sucahyo...if you got an idea

 

[sucahyo]

How about Dodge Viper RT/10 on seattle short with normal tire and no weight modification?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

How about Dodge Viper RT/10 on seattle short with normal tire and no weight modification?

Alrite, I'm on it! I'll get back tomorrow perhaps..

 

[-Batman-]

oh boy thats a toughy, Ill do it

 

[sucahyo]

I choose this car because it feels wilder and slippier than the GTS version.
I want no weight modification because I suspect doing weight mods will make the car more balanced.
I still experimenting right now, and my first clue is to use 12/12 spring rate............
But after some lap, I think we should get at least hard tire to make the tuning more noticable, without it I keep hit the wall. So, use hard tire.............

The optimum brake setting is without controller without sports brake (on 12/12 spring, hard tire), but the variance is small, so except for 24/1 any combination don't give bad braking result.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Okay. Seattle Short. Blea. if I knew how to make that yucky face with Webtv, I'd do it.

Okay, first of all, I tried using Stage 3 power and decided to nix this. It just felt too silly trying to blast around Seattle Short in a 700 hp Viper trying to keep straight...like if Hulk Hogan showed up to dance in a ballet. So I went with all the top exhaust, computer, and permanent upgrades but stock engine parts otherwise.

Springs: 6.5 - 5.8 kg/mm
Ride: 103 / 114mm
B. Damper: 3/4
R. Damper: 5/2
Camber: 3.5° / 0.4°
Toe: -.10 / 0.0
Stabl: 2/4

Braxe: 21/ 14 w/ carbon metallic pads.

Tranny on Auto setup 5
1st: 2.760
2nd: 2.130
3rd: 1.580
4th; 1.205
5th: 0.960
6th: irrelevant (I didn't need it)
Final: 2.950

Limited Slip: 30/35/12
TCSC: 45
ASCS: not used

Clutch, flywheel, & shaft: all stock

Final power: 564 @ 6,000 rpm and 556 ft-lbs@ 4,100

Firstly...this goes to show how useless the traction controller is. In GT3, cars are equipped with them, they actually work off the start-line, and cost zero credits. I think in GT2, all they do is limit a bit of wheelspin. I wanted to get a super-tall 1st gear, but that would require messing up all my other gears.

You know what? **** it! I'm not taking this one all too seriously lol.

1st gear you'll need to seriously modulate. 2nd gear may provide a better launch. In turns 1 and 2, I set my car up for a somewhat safe tail-drift. Turn 3 is a breeze if you take it wide. Turn 4 is tricky since you're going up the hill, but I'm pretty good at it now. I used a 2 rear rebound setting to try and limit kickback from coming up that hill

Turns 6 and 7 (the left/right 90° turns) are the worst...the Viper slows to a crawl here and if you take these wrong, you STILL will get understeer. If there were a little 4-banger FWD car racing against my mighty Viper..this is where it would surely passs it by.

Anyways, give it a shot guys. Racing the Viper around Seattle Short reminded me of racing one in GT1 around Autumn Ring in the untuned Normal series...lots of slipping and sliding, yet manageable if you don't get too throttle happy.

 

[sucahyo]

My viper RT/10 setting:
Springs: 12.0/12.0
Ride height: 83 / 127
Damper B: 2/2
Damper R: 2/2
Camber: 0.0°/0.0°
Toe: 0.20 / -0.20
Stabilizer: 1/7

no Brake Controller, stock brake

Tranny: Auto 1 on 4.500
1st: 2.069
2nd: 1.599
3rd: 1.275
4th: 1.049 (max)
5th: max (unused)
6th: max (unused)
Final: 2.500

LSD : 56/56/56
no TCSC
no ASCS

tires: All normal
stock clutch, driveshaft, and flywheel

556hp @ 6000rpm, 557.6lb-ft @ 4100rpm , 3320lb (garage reading)


it looks like we go different way with our tuning, you make the car more understeer by using 3.5/0.4 camber (you know that this make the car understeer, right?), -.10/0.0 toe and 2/4 stabilizer. I try to make the car more oversteer with 0.0/0.0 camber, 0.20/-0.20 toe and 1/7 stabilizer.
I use 2/2 2/2 damper because using 1 make the car rather bouncy, and using 3 make the car rather jumpy. For transmission I make the first gear to bog down, other gear line diagonally to the right. I use 56/56/56 to stabilize the car when turning or drifting, I don't check if 56 is overkill though. I use my braking test data for braking. I use 12/12 because it provide high spring rate but stable enough on max speed test corner, I always use high spring rate now .

But even with different tuning goal, I can't feel much different driving your car and mine, I only feel your car have more wide turning on the 2 last corner.

 

[MacRoadster]

Viper RT/10, that's a nice car to drift

Sorry, i've been busy with other things... but you guys keep it going

 

[Parnelli Bone]

But even with different tuning goal, I can't feel much different driving your car and mine, I only feel your car have more wide turning on the 2 last corner.

Oh, I felt a difference!

It didn't take more than 2 or 3 turns for me to feel the extreme difference between Sucahyo's Viper and mine. Where you comin from, brother?

First, the transmission...it takes 5 minutes to tune (unlike my 30 seconds of laziness) sitting there pushing the final gear one way..then the other. However, the good thing is that first gear is really tall. That's what I was trying to go for in my car, I just got lazy and used 2nd instead after a quick blip of the throttle in 1st. The other 3 gears aren't flexible enough for me. I like the 2nd gear deep torque grab, but personally I wouldn't use it on such a small track. 3rd and 4th gears only become necessary on the curved straight part of the track.

The suspension felt awkward to me! Yes, I know that with my settings, more front camber up front creates more understeer initially but {1}. It also creates more grip once you're in the turn because the car's weight is leaning on the outside front tire, which in theory is now perpendicular with the ground. Understeer is only felt while you're initially turning in. and {2.} Your .20 front toe combined with a maxed out differential also creates a lot of understeer. True, these settings are made to limit the potential of a spin, but the jacked up rear (127mm) and twisted toe rear tires (-.20) tend to negate this, and I wasn't sure what this car wanted be on the track.

One minute it was turning in to a corner with extreme front grip because there's no front camber and the stabilizer up there is soft, making the rear swing out....but then the LSD system kicked in and it would take me a second or two or even three while I waited for the Viper to finally finish the corner I was in. I'd put the throttle at less than half, and the trunk would again try and swing out!

Very interesting, nonetheless. Do you actually race with settings like this? Or is this an experiment? I'm just curious, dude.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I actually answered my own question...racing Sucahyo's Viper in the first Muscle Car race. The only difference is I minimized the power.

Well, I was able to win the race, but not without a struggle. I had the horsepower advantage, but the steering and suspension was pretty awkward....and the '66 Shelby GT350 was all over me in the corners. The lack of brake tuning meant I couldn't sculpt my turns...if I wanted more oversteer, I'd have to swing the car in, but then I was in danger of the rear getting out of control. I gotta admit the replay looked awesome at some points tho, especially when the Viper was in turns 6 and 7 (left 90° followed by right 90°) and I got sideways. But then the Shelby broadsided me and I was smacked into the wall! I liked watching it bounce around. I did experience a lot of understeer, meaning that I couldn't turn fast enough and ran into a guardrail or wall 3 or 4 times. Not fun. I like pretty replays in which I don't hit anything! I just couldn't control this beast in a racing situation. But I DID win, and I guess that's what counts.

 

[sucahyo]

Well, apart from transmission (which is different), I can't feel the different in handling because my poor skill keep make the car drift on almost every corner ....... And actually, I can't even tune properly because of that ........

I am using 1/7 stabilizer thinking that by using it I can make the car more oversteer, not realizing that it also make the car more tail happy (I thought my skill made it). Maybe I should go back to 7/1 to reduce the tail slide.
I thought using 0.2/-0.2 toe will make the car more oversteer than 0.2/0.2. So what combination on toe for most oversteer? I use that combination thinking that if I make the front turn easier and the rear turn harder I can make the car oversteer.

I try the first Muscle Car race with 66 Shelby GT350 in it, I find the race is easy enough even with don't hit the wall driving style. And you're right about the sliding, I can get better winning using 7/1 stabilizer. Maybe the car understeer, but I use the car with full throttle when turning on each corner, so I don't feel it as much. And maybe because of this I can't find the difference between your car and mine, because I keep drifting the car on all corner. I like the uphill corner 5 where you drift all the way from corner entry and leave the pack ................
Maybe my car not suitable for grip driving. Or maybe because I tune it using digital controller.

I use this www.autozine.org

5 minute on gear? Did you pres 2 button or 1 button when changing the gear value ?
I don't know the name of the button, but when I increase the final drive on epsxe (default button) I use R and right arrow.

BTW, When you swing the rear to almost spin, what did you do?
are you relase the throttle and counter steer
or
press the brake and counter steer
or
just counter steer ?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I think we're using 2 different driving styles. When I race Vipers (especially at such a low speed surrounded by un-intelligent sim cars) I tend to go for grip rather than drift, using partial throttle in corners instead of full like you said. I only go to full when I feel it is safe to do so. I find that Vipers tend to drift lightly on their own, with little input from me. It sounds like maybe you are hurling your Viper into the turns, allowing the limited slip to save you from a full spin, whereas I am trying to be more cautious...getting a good racing line in & out. Unfortunately in the Muscle Car race, the Shelby doesn't care. He sees me trying to be careful, and decides to USE me as a wall so he can get ahead...because he is not a good a driver as we are!

+.20 front toe means the front tires are pointing outward \ / and this makes for a slower reaction when turning. I tend to use positive front toe for some mid-rear cars like the Europa to keep them from getting too tail happy. -.20 rear toe means the rear tires are pointing inward / \ and this (in theory) should actually limit spins because the outside rear tire is always pointing outward in the turn--keeping the car stable. However in GT2, I think too much negative rear toe simply makes cars unstable because too much power is not making it to the ground. The drive wheels are in the rear, and if you have too much negative toe back there, it makes the power do funny things. I know when me & MacRoadster were experimenting with the Lotus Europa @ Deep Forest, I was using a lot of negative rear toe because I thought it helped the car stay stable, but eventually I learned that with extreme speed, I was actually losing stability and therefore the rear of the Europa became unstable. Some cars with electronic steering like the Mitsu GTO and Peugeot 306 S16 use this system to try and keep their cars stable in corners.

Okay, I'm getting lost in my head. I forget my point now. OH well.

Hey I was exaggerating about the 5-minute comment! I was just saying it takes awhile to tune your tranny, and I'm lazy.

 

[sucahyo]

Ah, I wish I have analog controller ........
The poor shelby also frequently slam the wall because braking too late, lol.

About toe, all this time I thought that using + on front - on rear will create oversteer. And using - on front and + on rear will create understeer. I usually use -0.2/+0.2 for every MR car, and +0.2/-0.2 for every FF car.
But, are you sure about this? because I have the impression that what I did for the toe is correct, the elise became less spinny, the integra became less piggy.
Have you tried using reverse of what you usually do for toe ?

 

[MacRoadster]

+.20 front toe means the front tires are pointing outward \ / and this makes for a slower reaction when turning. I tend to use positive front toe for some mid-rear cars like the Europa to keep them from getting too tail happy. -.20 rear toe means the rear tires are pointing inward / \ and this (in theory) should actually limit spins because the outside rear tire is always pointing outward in the turn--keeping the car stable. However in gT2, i think too much negative rear toe simply makes cars unstable because too much power is not making it to the ground. The drive wheels are in the rear, and if you have too much negative toe back there, it makes the power do funny things. I know when me & MacRoadster were experimenting with the Lotus Europa @ Deep Forest, i was using alot of negative rear toe because i thought it helped the car stay stable, but eventually i learned that with extreme speed, i was actually losing stability and therefore the rear of the Europa became unstable.

Yeah i agree with you Parnelli 👍
I think the best is to start by using no toe at all (0º front, 0º rear), and use it only if really needed. Because it adds drag, making the car slower on straights, and also makes it unstable at high speed corners.
I use toe to help cornering on low speed corners, specially with heavy cars and using - at front and + at rear. But, like you said, + at front is usefull for some MR cars to make them have a less sensible steering.

I never use toe to have more/less understeer/oversteer, for that i use stabilizers, suspension and wings.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Sucahyo, where do you live? If it's not too expensive I'll freekin' mail you an analog if you want it. I have 4 of them now...I only need 2. Once you try it, you'll never go back. Email me at DELETED, I'll give you a day till you let me know if you want to do this or not, then I'll have to remove my email from this post because I don't wanna get slammed with porn and spam!

And no, positive toe means the front of the wheels are pointing outward when looking down at them. Negative means they are pointing inward. Let's be clear on this, it's actually stated in the GT2 Reference Manual. And I think that because you're using so much toe (max positive front / max negative rear) mixed with other extreme settings all around (minimum front / maximum rear height...minimum stabilizers mixed with maximum front or rear) it's hard for you to see what i'm talking about. Nowadays, I only use extreme toe settings (and sometimes extreme rear camber as well) in rally races.

The key thing is: just ignore me, Sucahyo. If those settings work for you, by all means use them. They don't work for me, but that doesn't mean anything....we simply have different driving styles. That's what this thread is all about.

Mac, I gotta say, I've been using less and less toe in my sim races ever since that Europa Experiment at Deep Forest. I remember lap after lap trying to get below 1:13xxx or whatever, and finally I thought: hey, if I remove all toe, won't that mean all tires are pointing straight and I should therefore be faster? Sure enough, it only took another lap or 2 to get that golden lap time....and I did it with EASE! I even messed up a corner or 2 but still got my lowest time.

 

[sucahyo]

And no, positive toe means the front of the wheels are pointing outward when looking down at them. Negative means they are pointing inward. Let's be clear on this, it's actually stated in the GT2 Reference Manual. And i think that because you're using so much toe (max positive front / max negative rear) mixed with other extreme settings all around (minimum front / maximum rear height...minimum stabilizers mixed with maximum front or rear) it's hard for you to see what i'm talking about. Nowadays, i only use extreme toe settings (and sometimes extreme rear camber as well) in rally races.

The key thing is: just ignore me, Sucahyo. If those settings work for you, by all means use them. They don't work for me, but that doesn't mean anything....we simply have different driving styles. That's what this thread is all about.

Thank you for the controller , but I think its too expensive to send it .

Actually, I don't believe the GT2 manual, I have a feeling that the writer is not exactly know how the program actually made. I figure the writer is some car profesional that have Beta GT2 in front of him.
I also consider + is toe out, wheel pointing outward.
My thinking is, using + the wheel will become easier to turn, using - the wheel will become harder to turn. So with the front whell turn easier (+) and the rear wheel turn harder (-) we create oversteer.

It seems that driving styles really affect our tuning. We can feel different handling when using the same tuning.
I test the toe using default value or equal setting for everything else. To check again, I test R34 Vspec and Supra RZ 98 on test track, +0.2/-0.2 vs -0.2/+0.2, I feel the first is more oversteer, the second is more understeer with my driving style. Viper RT/10 (default setting) on autumn ring feels the same. So it means we better use our own if we want the fastest time .

I also use toe only when necessary, but from 1000m time I learn that using 2/1 camber will reduce the acceleration more than 0.2/0.2 toe. So I use toe more (on non powered wheel) and not using any camber if not really neccesary (front on MR). Maybe I'll try tuning europa on deep forest........

 

[sucahyo]

I think this solve the problem:

Just to clarify the whole reaction to toe-in/out in regards to vehicle dynamics. I am a casual GT player, but an avid real (no condesention implied) car and radio controlled car racer. When getting in to chassis setup stuff, I knew that toe in increased stability and toe out decreased stablility (increased reactivity and oversteer) through experience and everyone in the community telling me so. It didn't make sense to me though, I thought the oppisite would be true based on the reasoning cango_uk posted a page previous. What I didn't understand was the importantance of mechanical weight transfer resulting from a combination of steering angle of inclination, caster and scrub radius.

Caster and SIA have the effect of raising the outside tire in a corner and lowering the inside tire when you turn the wheels, ie the ride hieght at the outside front of the car is lower and higher at the inside front. This effectively weight jacks the car the wrong way, loading the inside front tire for inital turn in until the vectored forces of direction change cause the weight to transfer to the outside tires on the corner.

The long and short of this is that your initial turn in (before the car transfers weight due to direction change) is largely controlled by the inside tire, not the outside. Thus, toe-out actually sets the tire that does the most initial steering (the inside) with a more radical steering angle than toe in would. As the car transfers weight to the outside wheels, the effect is neutralized as the outside tires are actually less turned in (partially due to ackerman as well). Toe out makes vehicles more sensitive to inital steering, giving them more cut and making them more reactive to direction change. Toe in does the oppisite.

In karting and 1/12th scale rc racing where there is little suspension travel this effect is used to a ridiculous extreme with incredible caster angles used to violently setup the inside tire (usually toe'd out a bit) to cut for a lot of inital steering.

I still have no idea what + or - toe means in gt though!

Because I use drifting, my steering is rough, when the turning, the inner tire has the most effect. And because you use smooth driving, when turning, the outer tire has the most effect.
For rough steering, toe out will make the inner wheel turn easier.
For smooth steering, toe out will make the outer wheel turn harder.

So, when you use toe out on front, with smooth driving with analog, you get understeer. With rough driving with digital, you get oversteer.