Setup Vs. Setup

[MacRoadster]

Good to see that my Boeing brought you back, Batman

Welcome back

 

[-Batman-]

thanks guys...i just got back so I'll let one of you guys kick it off! 👍

 

[sucahyo]

With my settings, 14/20 springs and harder dampers, i didn't had that... "bungee jumping" effect...

You can also try with 12/12 springs, and lowest all dampers (1/1 - 1/1).

Lol, Boeing .......

 

[-Batman-]

anyone want to kick a new one off or is the old one still going?

 

[-Batman-]

well looks like theres no action...I'll try to start something here.

How about a German, or a North car? BMW? RUF CTR2 Sport?

 

[MacRoadster]

well looks like theres no action...I'll try to start something here.

How about a German, or a North car? BMW? RUF CTR2 Sport?

Anything it's ok to me.

Talking about a north car, now i remember there's a car in there that i never did a setup that i liked... but i like the car...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Okay guys, here it is: Jaguar XJR at Rome full course. Yeah, that's the big 4-door. You can't race-modify it, so stage 3 weight is as far as it'll go. I've actually raced this hog in the GT Regionals and won, so let's see what everyone comes up with! I'll post my settings later.

 

[sucahyo]

What a heavy car, but have good cornering and straight acceleration. Other car in regional league is no match on straight acceleration! And it gives you good feeling when you let computer catch up and then see it thrown to dirt when trying to follow our cornering speed .....

Jaguar XJR for Rome City course (actually, I use this on all regional league course)
Springs: 14.0/14.0
Ride Height: 93/140
Dampers Bound: 1/1
Dampers Rebound: 1/1
Camber: 0.0/0.0
Toe: 0.0/0.0
Stabilizers: 7/7

Brakes: 1/24

Gears: Auto 1 on 4.000, using 2.500 final drive.
1st: 3.137
2nd: 2.216
3rd: 1.764
4th: 1.448
5th: 1.225

LSD: 56/56/56

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes, that's my point. A lot of people assume that the XJR is hopeless after watching it spin out several hundred times in various sim races, but with the right settings it becomes a lot more agile. A Jaguar is a cat after all! *

Your car looks interesting Sucahyo. Can't wait to try it. I'll do so (and post my own Jag) later this day. I haven't got as much free time like I did this summer so I'll be back.

 

[MacRoadster]

I think this was the 1st time i tried this car...
I just bought it, took it to Rome and... surprise! Considering it's weight and size, this isn't a bad car at all. I must say that it gave me some fun to drive it

For this one i decided to go for a dragster style ride height, just like sucahyo. It seems to work well... at least with big cars. But the ride height is the only thing we have in common.

Here's my setup:

Springs: 8.0/7.0
Ride Height: 93/140
Dampers Bound: 10/3
Dampers Rebound: 10/5
Camber: 1.4/0.0
Toe: -0.10/0.0
Stabilizers: 7/1
Brakes: 24/22

Gears:
1st: 2.975
2nd: 1.962
3rd: 1.470
4th: 1.220
5th: 0.990
Final: 3.300
Auto: 14

LSD: 56/56/56

As usual i didn't liked sucahyo's setup, because of that rear doing bungee jumping... 👎
Also, those brakes are good to spin when trail braking into the corners.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Hmmm, I was kind of expecting more complaints about the Jag!

Here I go:

Springs: 10.0 / 8.4
Ride: 118 / 124 mm
B. Dampers: 3/5
R. Dampers: 2/3
Camber: 2.5°/1.1°
Toe: 0.00/0.00
Stabil: 3/4

Brakes: 17/11

Gears: Auto 14 and an AUTOMATIC transmission.
1st: 2.975
2nd: 2.176
3rd: 1.536
4th: 1.169
5th: 0.973
Final: 3.200

LSD: 16/30/26
Super Soft Tires...etc.

I had a fun time driving this one. Believe it or not, I actually used a semi-racing suspension when I raced it long ago, but I was also using less power.

Tried Suc's settings, which is again like a drag race machine...very interesting. I could really feel the weight of the trunk whenever I clambered over one of those red & white grids (which I like to do to get ahead of sim cars). Like Mac said, the trunk was very floppy! If you avoid the grids and just stay on tarmac, there is of course no problem with bumps, but there is still a skittish rear-end thing happening. Woo! I liked how I could get some very precise turns into turn 6 (the tight 90°) since the front end is lowered all the way. The differential prevented the expected spin-outs most of the time.

Mac's car I can tell is oriented for more understeer, yet again the rear is all jacked up so I got a bit of oversteer and floppiness. I really liked 3rd gear with a nice, deep torque dip. How do y'all control these beasts with these settings?

Anyways, thanks guys, that was fun.

 

[sucahyo]

As usual i didn't liked sucahyo's setup, because of that rear doing bungee jumping... 👎
Also, those brakes are good to spin when trail braking into the corners.

Oops, the spring rate is still too high then. I usually avoid rumble strips on the first corner though. For relax driving I use 2.0/2.0 spring rate (1/1,1/1 damper), its more nice to see the jaguar passing through bump without shaking.....

My purpose using 1/24 brake distribution is to make the rear wheel have the most load, to make it have less traction, so when I release the brake and press the throttle the power doesn't make my car snap and spin because the power wheel have less traction. Besides, I don't do much braking on corner, I do it on straight.

Your setting feels good 👍 , although I have a bit guessing setting the gear (auto 14 on 2.909 and then move the final drive to 3.300).

Hmmm, i was kind of expecting more complaints about the Jag!

no race mod with big giant rear wing on jaguar ................
Your setting feels understeer on high speed corner but neutral on low speed corner

BTW, you all seems to use higher front brake on this car, what is you cornering method on 90 degree corner? I use full breaking and then tap turning, release the brake, full turn, throttle tapping.

 

[MacRoadster]

Parnelli, you probably noticed that but, with auto transmission on that car you're not using all it's power, since max power is at 7000rpm (end of redline).
Your car offers an easy/relaxed driving, that's an usual thing in your setups.

In my setup i wanted the car's front more alive. It has more understeer than usual in my setups because i was always provoking the rear (sometimes with a soft feint motion), so i needed the understeer to balance it.
I just love to slide it through turn 7 (check attachment), 8 and 9 feel good too releasing the gas to put it on the right line if needed. Turn 3 was also good with this driving, 12 and 13 were ok too.
I just had some problems with understeer on turn 6, but with a softer braking (tapping) and/or a bit of feint motion to throw the rear to the corner i could solve the problem. Turn 11 was a bit tricky too... i couldn't use full brakes while cornering here or the rear would slide to the wrong side... so starting with a soft braking and doing the full brake just before turn 12 was the solution. I could also change the brakes setting, but i've found that i would miss them in other corners so...

Sucahyo, i didn't touched auto setting. I just changed the individual and final drive ratios, after buying the car.
I almost always use higher settings for front brakes than rear brakes, because front brakes have higher stopping ability. Only with some FF cars i use higher rear brakes, because they have a natural understeer appetite. But i always try to give them oversteer with suspension/wing settings.

 

[sucahyo]

Turn 11 was a bit tricky too... i couldn't use full brakes while cornering here or the rear would slide to the wrong side... so starting with a soft braking and doing the full brake just before turn 12 was the solution.

On this turn I just pass the turn with full speed and continue to turn 12 with full braking all the way............, continued with tap turning, turn, release brake, tap throttle, release turn, full throttle.
I can't drift the jag ........

I almost always use higher settings for front brakes than rear brakes, because front brakes have higher stopping ability.

What do you mean? using higher front brake will make faster braking? I should test it.....
Done testing, and the result is shocking !
testing it on jaguar xjr from 190-200 to 40-50 (I can't get exact same speed)
front/rear = time difference
12/12 = 2.8xx
24/01 = 2.8xx
01/24 = 2.4xx

Why the braking time is 0.4 seconds faster using higher setting for rear brake, bigger rear wheel? I test it over and over and the result is the same. This means your theory do not work on this jaguar.

 

[MacRoadster]

What do you mean? using higher front brake will make faster braking? I should test it.....
Done testing, and the result is shocking !
testing it on jaguar xjr from 190-200 to 40-50 (I can't get exact same speed)
front/rear = time difference
12/12 = 2.8xx
24/01 = 2.8xx
01/24 = 2.4xx

Why the braking time is 0.4 seconds faster using higher setting for rear brake, bigger rear wheel? I test it over and over and the result is the same. This means your theory do not work on this jaguar.

My theory is the way it is in real life and in most games/simulators.
When you brake the car's weight is transfered to the front wheels, making it possible to apply a strong brake on them without locking the wheels. If you apply a strong brake at the rear wheels, since there's less weight on them pushing them to the road, they will lock easily.
It's common to see in real racings, like the FIA GT and BTCC, drivers locking the rear wheel of the interior side of a turn when they trail brake.

Now, i haven't tested it in GT2, but have you checked if you weren't locking the front wheels when you got the worse time?

EDIT: I don't know how you did your tests to get so accurate results (0.4sec)... but i just did some tests too, this way:
I used the 1000-0 event, i always started to brake at 400m marker and always at same speed (using the gears for that), and then counting those white stripes on the road to check distance.
And... I also got better results with high brakes setting at the rear, doing a full brake!
I think that's because front wheels lock easier. Front wheels seem to always have alot more braking power, even with lower settings!
I could see alot of smoke when testing the front brakes, but not when testing rear brakes.

Now i've got another thing to complain about GT2... 👎

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes, I know the Jag makes peak power at 7,000, but my imaginary driver prefers automatics. Don't you guys know me yet?

I agree about the brake bias discussion. In theory, stronger rear brakes would make for a longer stopping time because they would be trying to lock up. Really in GT2, brake balancing is supposed to be done to help shape your cornering angle. I'm sure they programmed the game so that this works but left out development on straight-line realism.

Sucahyo, you don't drift a Jag...it tends to want to drift on it's own! ¬

 

[-Batman-]

Wow this car was a toughy.

I ran 1:28
1:25
1:27
1:29

Suspension

Springs - 9.0 6.5
Height - 100/105
Dampers 7/6
Rebounds 7/6
Camber + toe stock
Stablizer 4/3

Brakes are 20/16

Gears

3.450
3.393
1.658
1.252
0.941

2.097

12

40
40
40

This car was tough to tune, I didn't mind the stock setup so i decided to keep it close. What I found was this car had a hard time through the tight turns, but I mean this things a beast.


I'm guessing you smashed my times, not my course or car.

 

[MacRoadster]

Yes, i know the Jag makes peak power at 7,000, but my imaginary driver prefers automatics. Don't you guys know me yet?

Yeah... i thought that you prefered auto since this is a luxury car, not a sports car. But just in case you had missed the max power rpm it seemed better to mention it.

What I found was this car had a hard time through the tight turns, but I mean this things a beast.

I made my setup with a quicker steering response to help with that. Give it a try, maybe you'll like it

 

[-Batman-]

I'll try it and get back to you. I figured this car was not an understeerer...so i didn't adjest my camber or toe.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'll try it and get back to you. I figured this car was not an understeerer...so i didn't adjest my camber or toe.

If you drive it stock, an XJR has both faults--understeer and oversteer are both present, though there's definitely more trunk swinging than there is plowing.

 

[sucahyo]

Now, i haven't tested it in GT2, but have you checked if you weren't locking the front wheels when you got the worse time?

I don't know how you did your tests to get so accurate results (0.4sec)

Now i've got another thing to complain about GT2... 👎

I don't check any wheel locking, but the skid sound is different, it sound like loose traction.
I have more respect for PD for this, because in real life, even an ABS need to be recalibrate when the car weight changed, in new car this is done automatically by Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD), but it isn't popular when GT2 was being made. Maybe in later version brake bias is represent by single slider.
I notice that on some car, you hear the skid as a proper ABS skid (BMW 740i).

I think PD programmed the brake distribution as brake power, when you set it too high, the wheel will lock more, resulting less traction and slower braking. You set it too low, the braking will be less than optimal. I don't have a clue why 1/24 is faster, my brake setting purpose are to make the real wheel have less traction to reduce spin when throttling.

I have more test result, this time I am not using pause button anymore, I use recording feature of P.E.Op.S. Soft Driver 1.16, I play the avi file in virtualdub to view it frame by frame. With this I can get the time in 2 km speed accuracy.

250 to 50 braking test,
front/rear = time (second) = calculated braking distance (meter)
jaguar xjr :
12/12 = 3.676 = 205
01/01 = 3.224 = 180
24/24 = 3.635 = 203
01/24 = 3.241 = 181
24/01 = 3.717 = 208
no controller = 3.470 = 194
MacRoadster = 3.652 = 204
my setting = 3.159 = 176 (14.0/14.0 spring rate, test done at 2.0/2.0, 0.1 second faster )

spoon integra:
12/12 = 3.899 = 218
01/01 = 3.758 = 210
24/24 = 3.593 = 201
01/24 = 3.593 = 201
24/01 = 3.758 = 210
no controller = 3.570 = 190

nismo 270R:
12/12 = 3.429 = 191
01/01 = 3.347 = 187
24/24 = 3.635 = 203
01/24 = 3.323 = 186
24/01 = 3.716 = 207
no controller = 3.323 = 186

*edit*
spoon s2000 on 200 to 50 test:
12/12 = 2.560 = 143
01/01 = 2.683 = 150
24/24 = 2.961 = 165
01/24 = 2.643 = 148
24/01 = 2.642 = 148
06/06 = 2.642 = 148
18/18 = 2.601 = 145
no controller = 2.625 = 147
it seems, using 12/12 brake is the optimum
*edit*

temporary conclusion:
the optimum brake for each car is different, there is no general setting! 1/1 is faster on some car, slower on other.
the jaguar xjr can stop faster than nismo 270r or spoon integra .......
Not using brake controller can give faster time, on some car.
01/24 brake dist have consistent faster time, but I still don't know why.....
you find the turn 11 as tricky because you have to brake at least 20 meter earlier.

I think I will wait for another car to test .................

Sucahyo, you don't drift a Jag...it tends to want to drift on it's own! ¬

I still find it hard doing drift on this car, my favorite drift is let the car slide the corner with the throttle on, with no counter steering, no tapping or finger lifting ..............

 

[MacRoadster]

I think PD programmed the brake distribution as brake power, when you set it too high, the wheel will lock more, resulting less traction and slower braking.

Yes but i think front and rear settings aren't equivalent (i.e: front 20 not equal to rear 20), because front wheels seem to always have more braking power... or... maybe they forgot the effect of the weight shifting to the front, when under braking...

I have more test result, this time I am not using pause button anymore, I use recording feature of P.E.Op.S. Soft Driver 1.16, I play the avi file in virtualdub to view it frame by frame. With this I can get the time in 2 km speed accuracy.

Hmm... never noticed that plugin could save videos. That's nice

I still find it hard doing drift on this car, my favorite drift is let the car slide the corner with the throttle on, with no counter steering, no tapping or finger lifting ..............

lol... lazy drifter...
I prefer to have some throttle control over it. More gas = more drifiting, no gas = stops drifting.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Wow this car was a toughy.

I ran 1:28
1:25
1:27
1:29

Suspension

Springs - 9.0 6.5
Height - 100/105
Dampers 7/6
Rebounds 7/6
Camber + toe stock
Stablizer 4/3

Brakes are 20/16

Gears

3.450
3.393
1.658
1.252
0.941

2.097

12

40
40
40

This car was tough to tune, I didn't mind the stock setup so i decided to keep it close. What I found was this car had a hard time through the tight turns, but I mean this things a beast.


I'm guessing you smashed my times, not my course or car.

Batman, I think your final drive and 2nd gear are off. I set them to 2.597 and 2.393 respectively (I think this is what you meant to type).

Assuming this is true (actually it's probly not correct) then 5th gear was pretty much useless, altho I dig those deep torque grabs the engine makes occasionally below 5,000 rpms. After all, every V8 likes to grab down low! This is all assuming you had a 2.597 final drive. If you didn't, ignore all this because the engine would be above 5,000 for most of the ride and 5th gear would again be needed.

I got some sweet drifts in and out of turn 6 (the famous 90°) with little effort, and found that the Jag got squirrelly at times....not good for pure time-trial style racing, but great for my replay!

The damper and lsd settings caused a bit more understeer than I would prefer...especially in turn 2 and 3 (the gentle right-hander and the lefty by the colosseum which follows it). I also found that the lowered ride (@10mm+ lower than mine) caused some quality air-time when I drove over the red & white grids in turn 1, 7, and 12...crucial areas to get by sim cars if you race like me.

All in all I like this setting the best (except compared to mine, of course).

Anyone got any ideas for the next car/track? I got one if y'all don't...

 

[Jmac279]

The final drive was probably 3.097 or 2.907 ...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

lol... lazy drifter...
I prefer to have some throttle control over it. More gas = more drifiting, no gas = stops drifting.

...just goes to show that there are all kinds of drifts. Some cars require a lot of maintenance to create a good one, but every once in awhile, you'll get that magic drift where you're sliding sideways with no hands on the steering and minimal brake/throttle work! Those 4WD Subies, Mitsubishi sedans, and even some of the station wagons tend to be great for this.

I agree about the brake discussion. It seems with a 1/1 brake setting, your total stopping distance should be longer. Meanwhile, it's not, which leads back to my theory that the game programmer only keyed the controller to have variable brake settings for your cornering but left out development of straight-line and total braking power. Maybe Sucayho should test GT3 or 4's brake controllers in the same manner and see if they got it right in one of these games.

 

[-Batman-]

Maybe I did type it wrong, because i remember this car was more to the higher end, and gear five was reached quite oftenly. In the lower gears it usually just held up well, no dropping or anything. I was in a bit of a rush when i typed the settings, good chance of error.

 

[sucahyo]

The brake setting become more complicated for me now..............

I prefer to have some throttle control over it. More gas = more drifiting, no gas = stops drifting.

It different on this drift though, more gas = safe (stay on the road), no gas = thrown to dirt.
Its a lot harder to do it with jaguar, I get spin easily so I have to do some correcting, and I also don't like the engine noise. This is one of my effort to do it, in the corner exit I had to counter steer.


jaguar failed drift (300kb)

Maybe Sucayho should test GT3 or 4's brake controllers in the same manner and see if they got it right in one of these games.

Too bad I don't have it.

What is the next car then?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Man, that blue XJR looks good. Jags may handle like walruses in the sand, but damn they got the looks. I got a silver one with wire rims...probly from BBS or Bridgestone.

Anyways, this next one should be interesting.

Honda Beat at Tahiti!

Oooh, I can just hear the grumbles! Yeah, I know this one is slow...can only accept just over 120 hp, but it is also one of the worst handling cars in the game despite its slothiness and light weight. Has anyone else raced a Beat? You can find them in the used car section (model J) and I think the model Z can be won in the Kei car races, tho I might be wrong...either one has the same weight & power when fully modded so let's see what happens!

As usual, I'll post settings tomorrow.

edit: Try driving this car with power and tranny installed, but leave the tires, suspension, downforce, and lsd all stock just to see how bad it is. Then put a suspension in...drive it.. add tires..drive it..etc. Each step makes a huge difference.

 

[sucahyo]

My Beat Version F on tahiti:
Springs: 20.0/20.0
Ride height: 89 / 135
Damper B: 1/1
Damper R: 1/1
Camber: 0.0°/0.0°
Toe: 0.00 / 0.00
Stabilizer: 7/1

no Brake Controller

Tranny: Auto 1 on 5.400
1st: 3.641
2nd: 2.654
3rd: 2.142
4th: 1.783
5th: 1.528
Final: 3.000
top speed 200kmph(124)

Downforce: 0.12/0.21
no LSD
no TCSC
no ASCS

tires: All normal (I can let the car do my favorite drift on many corner )

This car oversteer, I try using LSD but I spin easier, I try using higher downforce but I keep doing mistakes hitting the wall because its sensitive steering, so I end up using low downforce to let it slide when I make mistakes . I try using -0.2/0.2 toe, the car become less oversteer but I still get spin more. I try not to use any camber. Using 7/1 stabilizer really have significant effect for my handling, I really miss it when using stock suspension. Everything else is my base setting. I don't feel much difference in handling using super soft compare to normal tire , so I use normal tire.
So basically, I stop modifying after putting suspension in..............
I might as well prefer Mugen Beat because it have faster time stock (and tuned)even with same power, same weight, etc, although has different engine noise........
BTW, I'll be on vacation, so I'll be join again next week...........

 

[MacRoadster]

it is also one of the worst handling cars in the game despite its slothiness and light weight.

ahhh... i don't agree...
Like all small lightweight cars it has a sensible steering, but it's not that bad. I think the Subaru 360, for example, is worse with it's RR layout, good to make 360º spins...

I only have the Z version in my garage. Will post my settings when i get the F version.