Shift 2 is supposed to be a sim, right?

[FuzzyFassbender]

...Must admit, I don't like tuning and custom liveries in general. IMO, it spoils the car although I understand for races like Works you need to do it. Whenever I can help it, I keep the cars standard.

You hit it on the head with "it spoils the car" and "I keep the cars standard". Everyone is looking for a different type of virtual experience. Those two comments do seem to point towards GT5. That isn't a bad thing, to each there own and you are in the company of many. My favorite color is red, my wife's is purple.
S2U seems to attract those that love raw virtual "racing". The fast majority of racing IRL takes as much skill to setup and tune a car as it does a skilled driver. If you have ever played some of the racing "sims" on the PC (Simbin titles, etc.) it is the same thing when it comes to setting up a car. These are not "driving" simulators.

For kicks, if you haven't already, you should find the other posts that hashed the sim vs arcade, S2U vs GT5, etc. There was many, especially soon after it's release. You were not the first to make reference to the "advertising claims" before the S2U release. But again, "everything" we buy is promoted to be the best or a cure all. It's just the normal hype of a product.

It's just a game. Good discussion though...

 

[Vaxxtx]

No, I like S2. It's just that I would have thought the sim elements would extend to acceleration and top speed, not only the modelling of the cars, the sound of the engines, etc. Must admit, I don't like tuning and custom liveries in general. IMO, it spoils the car although I understand for races like Works you need to do it. Whenever I can help it, I keep the cars standard.

So what you are saying is a Corvette Z is ruined by the Corvette C6.R LeMans car right? I mean that is an upgraded, and tuned car with liveries on it. Or a Ford Faclon is ruined by the SupercarsV8 race series because it has been converted from a 4 door sedan into a full blown race car, with sponser liveries on it? You see what I mean?

You can keep about every single car standard except for works, and the championships where you compete with a rival car. The problem is...why would you? I never understood the fun of taking a showroom car to a track and seeing 3 other cars that are the same (color even) and "driving" around the track.

S2 is all about having the ability to upgrade and tune your cars. My favorite "first time exp" in S2 was taking a VW MkI and swapping the engine with a GTI and putting on a turbo. Then taking it for a test run and not being able to even control it because I didnt upgrade anything else, or tune it for the new upgraded applied (tires, suspension, clutch, etc,). Then I went back and made the nessecary upgrades and spent a looong time tuning it and finally got a C class race car from a D class retro.

Point is, tuning is a huge part of S2. You dont HAVE to gets a works conversion on all your cars, and pop turbos on everything, but you need the standard upgrades to get your tuning options opened. Then you need to spend lots of time tuning each car, for each type of track. Once you get over the huge learning curve of the tuning options, you will really enjoy the game for what it is. A RACE game/sim.

But if car collecting, no in depth tuning, showroom models, and pleasure drives around a track with no fighting AI, well...aint going to find it here.

All in all have fun with the game if you are enjoying it, and dont sweat the minute details that dont effect gameplay

 

[Ryan81]

^ No, race cars are different because they have been built by real life engineers, designers etc. It's not the same when I tune a street car to be a race car because I know that in reality that cars does not exist. It's just a virtual creation and I'm not a fan of "fantasy cars"
For example, the Alpina B6 GT3 is a real life racing car. The 'Vette Z06 GT3 is too. However, if I slap a turbocharger on to a Supra, change the rims, put a bodykit, make ECU upgrades, suspension upgrades etc etc, it will not have a real life counterpart. Just something that I made up. That makes it a completely different psychological thing for me.

 

[Vaxxtx]

^ No, race cars are different because they have been built by real life engineers, designers etc. It's not the same when I tune a street car to be a race car because I know that in reality that cars does not exist. It's just a virtual creation and I'm not a fan of "fantasy cars"
For example, the Alpina B6 GT3 is a real life racing car. The 'Vette Z06 GT3 is too. However, if I slap a turbocharger on to a Supra, change the rims, put a bodykit, make ECU upgrades, suspension upgrades etc etc, it will not have a real life counterpart. Just something that I made up. That makes it a completely different psychological thing for me.

I am pretty sure, a turbocharged Supra, with all those upgrades has been made in real life. Is it somthing you are familair with? Maybe not. I am sure you can find one racing around a track. In saying that, taking any car and making it a race car, is what is done all the time. From a GTR to a Civic Si, to any Mustang ever made. Thats why there are races....like the BTCC, and FIA GT3, etc. etc. Where did these cars come from? Isnt there also a TDI race somewhere? You know where Jetta TDI's are slightly modified for the TDI Cup races. Point is just about every car has a REAL life race car counterpart.

The only thing that I agree on as far as real life vs. fantasy is tracks. I am not a fan of fantasy tracks, although some are done well.

Again the point is, if you want to drive around a stock "off the floor" car, in a sterile enviroment, read the history of that make/model, and nitpick stats, S2 isnt going to fit the bill. Personally I wouldnt find driving a Prius around the block much fun, in real life OR a game. If you want a "Race Simulator" and to spend lots of time tuning a car, S2 is where it is at.

Like I said eariler, you can drive and compete though most of the game with a stock car with no problems, as the AI adjust to your car selection. But you are basically missing a huge chunk of the game.

 

[FLX1981]

What I dont understand about S2Us accurancy is that in the stats it says that the Audi S3 is the fastest and fastest accelerating D-class car and on the track it gets smoked on the straights by RX8s that are supposed to be 20 km/h slower... What is that for?!? And no, it wasnt gear setup, my S3 redlined on the long straights.

 

[RomKnight]

My RX8 red lined if i used nitro. So i deliberately lowered the last gear and save on the Nitro keeping it only for passes (most of the time).

Just like in the Sirocco cup where only 15 boost are allowed (there's even a counter in the back windows 👍)

 

[Ryan81]

What I dont understand about S2Us accurancy is that in the stats it says that the Audi S3 is the fastest and fastest accelerating D-class car and on the track it gets smoked on the straights by RX8s that are supposed to be 20 km/h slower... What is that for?!? And no, it wasnt gear setup, my S3 redlined on the long straights.

It also has the Chevy Cobalt SS and the M3 E30 as having a higher PI index than the S3, even though in real life the new S3 would smoke both without any problems. S2 is not the best when it comes to accurate car performance by the looks of things.

 

[Ryan81]

I am pretty sure, a turbocharged Supra, with all those upgrades has been made in real life. Is it somthing you are familair with? Maybe not. I am sure you can find one racing around a track. In saying that, taking any car and making it a race car, is what is done all the time. From a GTR to a Civic Si, to any Mustang ever made. Thats why there are races....like the BTCC, and FIA GT3, etc. etc. Where did these cars come from? Isnt there also a TDI race somewhere? You know where Jetta TDI's are slightly modified for the TDI Cup races. Point is just about every car has a REAL life race car counterpart.

The only thing that I agree on as far as real life vs. fantasy is tracks. I am not a fan of fantasy tracks, although some are done well.

Again the point is, if you want to drive around a stock "off the floor" car, in a sterile enviroment, read the history of that make/model, and nitpick stats, S2 isnt going to fit the bill. Personally I wouldnt find driving a Prius around the block much fun, in real life OR a game. If you want a "Race Simulator" and to spend lots of time tuning a car, S2 is where it is at.

Like I said eariler, you can drive and compete though most of the game with a stock car with no problems, as the AI adjust to your car selection. But you are basically missing a huge chunk of the game.

Tracks were never an issue. I don't mind fantasy tracks but I must be able to drive real cars. For me, once you take a stock car and start messing around with it, it's no longer that model. If I take an S3 and tune it to have 500hp, it may look like an S3, it may feel a bit like an S3 and it may even sound like an S3 but it won't be an S3. It will just be another tuned car with an Audi badge. I like standard models or cars that have been specifically designed to be either race cars or track cars.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Tracks were never an issue. I don't mind fantasy tracks but I must be able to drive real cars. For me, once you take a stock car and start messing around with it, it's no longer that model. If I take an S3 and tune it to have 500hp, it may look like an S3, it may feel a bit like an S3 and it may even sound like an S3 but it won't be an S3. It will just be another tuned car with an Audi badge. I like standard models or cars that have been specifically designed to be either race cars or track cars.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from, but you still fail to see my point on race cars, vs street cars, and how they become that way.

You say you like standard cars, and specially desgined "race" cars. What you should say, is you like stock cars, and only race cars that someone else has made, and ones you know exist in real life. And by logic again, an Audi R8 LMS is no longer an Audi, just another tuned car with an Audi badge.

You remind me of one of the guys I used to watch football with (American Football). We would get together on Sundays to watch a game and this guy would throw stats, odds, players hometowns, biography, spouses names, and anything else could think of. He spent more time reading about the players and how the game will go (according to his data) than he did watching, and enjoying the game. While everyone else was cheering and high-five'in he was sitting there explaining how team A should have done a screen pass and not a run up the middle because of this reason or that. It was rather annoying after a while. Funny thing is, me and the other guys played football from Jr. High all the way through High Shcool and one even played for College. The "stats" guy, couldnt even throw a short pass. I believe he moved on to playing fantasy football leauges, which is much more up his alley.

Look, dont be that guy. If you want to play sterile, there is a perfect game for you. S2 is what it is. I tried others, I picked up GT5. I gave it a honest shot. I find it dull and lacking of character, and waaaay to easy. I even picked up an XBox and Forza3, along with Race Pro. Both much better games than GT5 IMO. But you know what, I keep coming back to S2 because it fits me more. I dont nit-pick on the Forza3 forum about how horrible Nords is in that game. Why? Because if the game's details are bugging me so much, I move on and find one I can enjoy. In this case, a race sim.

 

[///M-Spec]

It also has the Chevy Cobalt SS and the M3 E30 as having a higher PI index than the S3, even though in real life the new S3 would smoke both without any problems.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. In real life, the M3 has at least a 300 lb.* weight advantage over the S3. Plenty enough I think, to overcome the 23 peak horse power advantage the S3 enjoys. Especially when you factor in AWD drivetrain losses.

If the M3 is riding on modern tires, I'd put my money on it 90% of the time.

And the turbo charged Cobalt SS may be a crude, ugly, nasty little car, but on the track it absolutely flies. If anything, S2U is underrating it's track performance.

S2 is not the best when it comes to accurate car performance by the looks of things.

If we take the data that appears in the UI at face value, S2U is indeed occasionally, frustratingly, wrong. According to the UI, the 8P S3 makes 231 hp, which is 30 less in real life. S2U also understates the M3 Sport Evo's curb weight by 200 lbs.*

I wonder if the little 'fudging of stats' here and there aren't actually on purpose. An effort to 'balance' the cars somehow in order to promote game play.

But numbers alone aren't what makes a good sim. What S2U is good at is mimicking the experience of driving the cars at the limit. It's the dynamic behavior of the cars. The sense of weight, the responsiveness of the steering (or the lack thereof) after the tires start sliding, the yaw moment you induce with your inputs. I've driven or owned some of the cars in real life, and I think they've done a pretty good job capturing their personalities, one or two exceptions withstanding.


*EDIT - After doing a little more looking, I'm getting conflicting info on the M3 Sport Evo's curb weight. My Complete Book of BMW (Tony Lewin) lists all variants of the E30 M3 at 1200 kg / 2,645 lbs. This is consistent with S2U's presentation. However, several US sources list the US spec M3 in the 2,850 lb. range. Assuming for now 2,645 is a dry weight w/o options (AC, leather, radio, etc.) and ~2,850 lbs. is proper curb weight for apples to apples comparison.


M

 

[TexasTyme214]

What I dont understand about S2Us accurancy is that in the stats it says that the Audi S3 is the fastest and fastest accelerating D-class car and on the track it gets smoked on the straights by RX8s that are supposed to be 20 km/h slower... What is that for?!? And no, it wasnt gear setup, my S3 redlined on the long straights.

In the game the most accurate stats are in the live telemetry. Weight is spot on 99% of the time, but horsepower has to be checked in telemetry. Cars that are turbocharged or tuned rotary make usually make a lot more horsepower than the stats in upgrade mode projects. This makes a small list of cars overpowered for their PI rating. A turbocharged M3 or a RX-8 with lvl 2 rotary house print is a really good example.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

^ No, race cars are different because they have been built by real life engineers, designers etc. It's not the same when I tune a street car to be a race car because I know that in reality that cars does not exist. It's just a virtual creation and I'm not a fan of "fantasy cars"
For example, the Alpina B6 GT3 is a real life racing car. The 'Vette Z06 GT3 is too. However, if I slap a turbocharger on to a Supra, change the rims, put a bodykit, make ECU upgrades, suspension upgrades etc etc, it will not have a real life counterpart. Just something that I made up. That makes it a completely different psychological thing for me.

Back in the middle to late 70's a local Chevrolet dealer would sell a brand new "Vega" (you probably don't remember these ) to a customer and offer an option to transplant a modified V8 for the 4 - oh the days! Zero miles Vega with a brand spanking new V8 stuffed under the econo box hood straight out of the dealer showroom. WAY to much horsepower for it's own good but these customers were gear heads through and through. So, what is real or made up and by who.

I have on buddy that has a 69' Carmaro convertable restored to factory specs., and another friend who restored a 70' Corvette but to him the car in factory trim and tune was too tame - he modified to his liking (and mine - boy that car flys and sounds mean!).

To me there isn't anything wrong with GT5, Forza, S2U, or Hot Pursuit for that matter. They all will not appeal to everyone. Most on this sub-forum I believe lean toward a "sim racing" element in their games and could care less if the car stats are spot on or the horn sounds realistic. I want a racing game that gets my heart rate pumping.

Again, to each their own.

 

[boomee]

arent there enough complaint threads about shift already ?

 

[grahamw56]

OP, where do you get your figures for 0-60mph for a MK1 Lotus Cortina....a real one I mean ?

That car in standard road trim was tested at under 10 secs (9.2 in one test) for the 0-60 dash, when new.

Even a later and much heavier standard 2 litre MK3 Cortina with 98bhp was tested at 10.9 for the 0-60 (in Autocar).

Thus your whole argument is based on a false premise anyway.

(I'm old enough to have been around when those cars were new, and have owned and driven most of their variations).

Who cares if the car is a COUPLE of seconds quicker in the game anyway ?

We used to mess with the things so much in their day that there was hardly a standard one on the road anyway.