Shooting inside Colorado movie theater during Batman premier

[Zenith]

People buying guns out of fear when they have little understanding or experience with them is bad.

People taking responsibility for their own safety through training and learning is good.

Most of these purchases are probably the former, but maybe we'll have a few people arming themselves for the right reasons.

 

[TankAss95]

Personally, I wonder that they're not buying bulletproof vests... But in a country where you can purchase military rifle ammunition just about anywhere, that probably won't be much help.

Can't sidearms pierce through bulletproof vests anyway if the gunner shoots at a certain distance?

 

[Dennisch]

Can't sidearms pierce through bulletproof vests anyway if the gunner shoots at a certain distance?

Nope. Unless you have a really large sidearm with high velocity bullets.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

In my knowledge, it depends on the type of the vest, there are different grade -type I to IV, IV is the highest at the moment, able to withstand rifle projectiles. Type II can withstand most 9mm rounds, but I've heard that FN Five Seven could penetrate most type II vest ( 9mm proof ), and probably most armor piercing bullets, magnum and above .40 cal handguns.

 

[CinnamonOD]

As you may know, there's a lot of Anti-United States people here in Latin America and they are saying in facebook pages that they're glad that happened, they are happy for the dead people, they are even making "fun" of it

*Sorry for the big image

Translation:
(1st line) I invite you to the movies
(2nd line) I'll shoot. In spanish, that's a way to tell "I'll pay it for you", this making an double sense in the sentence

I feel sorry for all the families that lost one of theirs

 

[Dennisch]

Just shows. Dumb and ignorant people are everywhere. I'll bet if I start digging into Dutch websites I will find the same sort of posts.

 

[Keef]

Honestly, the irony is laughable.

That's not ironic at all, it's completely logical. When limp wristed people and sensationalist politicians start talking about gun rights and regulation, all the sane people start stocking up before they're not allowed to anymore. Welcome to America.

 

[a6m5]

Just shows. Dumb and ignorant people are everywhere. I'll bet if I start digging into Dutch websites I will find the same sort of posts.

Same in Asia. Absolutely disgusting, and absolute lack of class.

 

[Pupik]

...all the sane people start stocking up before they're not allowed to anymore. Welcome to America.

Really? Because for all the loud and obnoxious blather, the sum total of actual gun rights removed from legitimate owners has honestly amounted to fly crap in a bowl of pepper.

 

[niky]

Can't sidearms pierce through bulletproof vests anyway if the gunner shoots at a certain distance?

The FN's vest-shredding ammunition is not for sale to civilian buyers. The regular "tumbling" round is a piece of work, though.

Most handgun ammunition is either a blunt lead slug or hollow-point. The soft slug and the expanding hollow point are both easily absorbed by low-level body armor. Rifle rounds are another matter, as they have more kick and better penetration.

Besides the FN, there are armor-piercing rounds available in different sizes for pistols... but these are also usually illegal for sale to civilian buyers. For the most part, unless the shooter is carrying a long arm, even a light vest is enough.

Funnily enough, you can legally buy (in the US) high-powered rifle rounds that will go through most light vests easily. Because converted AK47's and other converted assault carbines make such great hunting rifles.

 

[Hollow]

I think it was respectful of him to show up. 👍

 

[Blaze_409]

Lets go back to the beginning. So you mean to tell me this guy suited in Riot Gear was allowed past the ticketing desk let alone the place where they crimp your ticket. The popcorn stands and all and no one said a thing or called the Police?

I know its easy to have 20/20 after it happened but for the future. Is it normal that someon can walk into a movie theater in full Riot Gear without suspicion?

That Latin America stuff. That is sickening. If they have a problem with the US then they can hate the government but when innocent citizens die that's just wrong.
That Is Absolutely Sadistic.
Its good to know the world is surrounded by Sadistic loonies who get off on hearing about other peoples death.

 

[Schwartz]

I know its easy to have 20/20 after it happened but for the future. Is it normal that someon can walk into a movie theater in full Riot Gear without suspicion?

First off, I don't think think that's what happened. He had is "riot gear" hidden under his scarecrow costume.

Secondly, the answer to your question is "yes." People wear all kinds of costumes to movie premiers.

 

[Blaze_409]

This is so confusing. The media just misconstrues everything. First Riot Gear, then the joker, and the scarecrow. So he said he was the Joker but he dressed himself as the scarecrow over a riot suit?

Its best not to question his reasoning.

 

[McLaren]

Can't sidearms pierce through bulletproof vests anyway if the gunner shoots at a certain distance?

Depends on the vest, as said. Some vests will start to fall apart if hit with enough force repeatedly.

First off, I don't think think that's what happened. He had is "riot gear" hidden under his scarecrow costume.

Secondly, the answer to your question is "yes." People wear all kinds of costumes to movie premiers.

Still waiting for someone to post proof of this part, because no media outlet I've Google'd says he wore a scarecrow costume. I think Holmes was smart enough to know not to dress as Scarecrow if he wanted to be identified as The Joker.

Nearly all say he was confused for a Bane-fan instead because people saw him wearing the armor.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

Lets go back to the beginning. So you mean to tell me this guy suited in Riot Gear was allowed past the ticketing desk let alone the place where they crimp your ticket. The popcorn stands and all and no one said a thing or called the Police?

I know its easy to have 20/20 after it happened but for the future. Is it normal that someon can walk into a movie theater in full Riot Gear without suspicion?

That Latin America stuff. That is sickening. If they have a problem with the US then they can hate the government but when innocent citizens die that's just wrong.
That Is Absolutely Sadistic.
Its good to know the world is surrounded by Sadistic loonies who get off on hearing about other peoples death.

I don't think that's what happened.

Fox News reported he went through the ticket line in normal attire, went into the movie theater, propped the exit door (down the rows by the big screen) open.

He then went to his car parked in the back, geared up, then re-entered through the exit door giving direct access to the theater.

The South America banter does not suprise me. In 1999, four friends and I rode BMWs from Tijuana to just south of Buenos Aires (Mar del Plata)
While it was one of the most fantastic and physically challenging events of my life, (oh god the roads, the roads!) we encountered numerous people that didn't want us around. I was spit on as an angry mob chanted "Down America" near San Miguel de Tucuman in April '99. This was very rare, only one problem in thousands of miles.

But, we met far more wonderful, kind and giving people that helped us. A place to stay, clean water, food, fuel. South America is a beautiful, vibrant continent with many good hearts.

 

[Blaze_409]

I don't think that's what happened.

Fox News reported he went through the ticket line in normal attire, went into the movie theater, propped the exit door (down the rows by the big screen) open.

What kind of quack show are they running in that movie theater? Last time I checked the emergency exits are supposed to be alarmed. So they should have known when he exited through them by audible alarm.

I dont see how they can sue Warner Bros....And to some extent how they can sue the guys doctors. But this Movie Theater is getting the pants suited off of them.

Isn't this some kind of building code that Emergency exits should be alarmed?
No body should be able to enter a place like that without being seen and then into the dark of the movie theater. If it's not building code it should be...and if it was...

 

[axletramp]

That's not ironic at all, it's completely logical. When limp wristed people and sensationalist politicians start talking about gun rights and regulation, all the sane people start stocking up before they're not allowed to anymore. Welcome to America.

I agree that it's perhaps wrong to lay the blame for the panic at the feet of the people applying for licenses, but that's what's convenient for the politicians. It's how they survive in power by making poor decisions full of self interest and then coating themselves in teflon and blaming the public for their reaction.

I'm not sure what the public are expecting though. Why buy more guns? Would it be more likely that they actually could use a gun to protect themselves in a similar scenario? That's the problem with these situations - unstable people with a grudge and a gun aren't predictable and it's hard to stop a bullet with another one.

But I don't live there and it's not my community that was rocked by this, so I'm not sure how I'd react if it were. Probably wouldn't buy another gun though.

 

[TankAss95]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyB9rjIRx4k">YouTube Link</a>

I think it was respectful of him to show up. 👍

I like Christian Bale. He's a really decent, kind guy which is rare in the celebrity world.

 

[niky]

Except for being a prima donna... but well, it's the decent thing to do.

Bullets won't stop bullets at all, not unless you're in a particularly unrealistic action movie.

A gun might be a good deterrent against lightly armed robbers, but if you're facing a psychotic shooter who may or may not be wearing body armor, a regular handgun really isn't going to cut it. Even without armor, a shooter pumped up on adrenaline (and other drugs) can take a whole lot of hits before he goes down.

 

[Blaze_409]

In addition the average joe does not just "shoot" a gun. There will always be that pause evven if Holmes is a psycho shooting. Plus when Holmes sees the other guns pointed at him he is more likely to believe whatever delusions he has going on about people being out to get him.

If you have a gun and are not confident enough or dont have the stomach to shoot it your going to make the killer even more dangerous.


It is important that Holmes saw that no one attacked him and that everyone was actually innocent victims. Maybe that is why he told the police about the bombs in his house. If he had these delusions about the general society and big brother he realized and no one was attacking him9(like the voices said) then maybe he thought the voices lied.(again we dont know if there are voices or not) Outside of the police.

 

[Zenith]

^Pure speculation...

A gun might be a good deterrent against lightly armed robbers, but if you're facing a psychotic shooter who may or may not be wearing body armor, a regular handgun really isn't going to cut it. Even without armor, a shooter pumped up on adrenaline (and other drugs) can take a whole lot of hits before he goes down.

Holmes was an inexperienced shooter wearing a gas mask in a dark theater attempting to shoot hundreds of targets through smoke. Adrenaline does very little to ease the blow of a jacketed hollow point through the heart, lungs, or brain. I'm not saying it would be an easy kill, just not impossible assuming that you aren't one of the first ones shot.

Of course, this shooting is unlike any before. The Columbine and VT shooters didn't carry 100rd magazines nor did they have body armor.

The common thing that all these shootings share is that the shooter is the one that decides when the shooting is done. The kids at Columbine and VT committed suicide even when they still had ammunition remaining. They could have continued killing if they wanted to and Holmes could have done the same thing.

The reason many of the survivors of these incidents are alive is because the shooter let them live. That is unacceptable.

 

[TheCracker]

I like Christian Bale. He's a really decent, kind guy which is rare in the celebrity world.

Yeah, tell that to his mother

 

[McLaren]

What kind of quack show are they running in that movie theater? Last time I checked the emergency exits are supposed to be alarmed. So they should have known when he exited through them by audible alarm.

I dont see how they can sue Warner Bros....And to some extent how they can sue the guys doctors. But this Movie Theater is getting the pants suited off of them.

Isn't this some kind of building code that Emergency exits should be alarmed?
No body should be able to enter a place like that without being seen and then into the dark of the movie theater. If it's not building code it should be...and if it was...

It wasn't an emergency exit. It was an exit that lead to the parking lot. My local theater has one as well so the guests do not have to walk back through the lobby, outside, & then back around the building again.

 

[niky]

I'm not saying it would be an easy kill, just not impossible assuming that you aren't one of the first ones shot.

Agree, not impossible, but trying to get a headshot (since he was wearing armor) on a moving target in a dark and smoky theater? Definitely very, very difficult.

The common thing that all these shootings share is that the shooter is the one that decides when the shooting is done. The kids at Columbine and VT committed suicide even when they still had ammunition remaining. They could have continued killing if they wanted to and Holmes could have done the same thing.

The reason many of the survivors of these incidents are alive is because the shooter let them live. That is unacceptable.

And that's the sad truth of it. Even sadder still, most civilians who would be armed and present at these things would not be in the frame of mind to go for the "kill-shot" on the assailant, nor would they have the training that would allow them to do it as effectively as a plainclothes officer.

And even police officers with sidearms can do little against heavily armed gunmen in a crowded room. He had on body armor, the rows of chairs would have presumably interfered with leg-shots, and shots to the arms would not completely incapacitate him. I recall in the infamous Hollywood shootout, even when hit in exposed areas, the robbers were so pumped up that they kept on going... and going... and going... and going... And these men weren't quite as psychotic...

 

[Blaze_409]

^Pure speculation...
.

When I said the average joe does not shoot a gun. I meant you or me. I wasn't refering to Holmes as he is no average joe. If I was tasked with having to shoot someone of course I would pause because Im thinking.
2 rights dont make a wrong.
Ill only be just as evil as him for killing him
He wont get to go to prison.

So yes I do think the average human carrying a gun to protect themselves would have had trouble shooting Holmes. And this indecisive action would just cost more lives.

 

[Tornado]

If someone in the theater had had a gun and if they had shot and killed him with it while he was doing this, I'm not really seeing how that would make them just as evil as him.

 

[Blaze_409]

It doesn't have to actually do the trick of actually being more evil. Most people will tell you that you did the right thing if you had shot Holmes. But in the heat of the moment. People, average citizens have too much of a concious to kill another human being. Its not something to be taken lightly regardless of the person at the other end of the gun (convicted killer, thief etc.). Most of the victims famileis want him to get his just desserts or soemthing of the like. What they don't say is that they want to be one to stick it to Holmes. Maybe some angry fathers but other than that no. They want him dead but want someone else to do it.

Heres a good example of this conscious effect.

When they do Firing Squad execution(type of death penalty) they have multiple shooters but only one gun is actually loaded the rest of the guns are blanked and emptied(sometimes replaced with rubber or wax bullets). This way no one knows who actually killed the executionee. Then no one has to carry that in there concious.

It would no double weigh in there minds of one person had to do it because its not common behavior for one human, a good samaritan, to kill another human being regardless of his crimes. If people were ok with this everyone would have guns in there homes and there would be no one stupid enough to rob another person.

I've also seen a similar tactic used in television/movies where somehow the victim manages to subdue the criminal or take away his gun. Then the criminal says "Comeon.. Your not gonna shoot me...because you can't etc. Just badgering but not expecting be shot"

I guess the problem sorts itself out to some extent because you wouldn't exactly get a gun if you didn't think you had the guts to use it but who knows.

 

[Zenith]

And even police officers with sidearms can do little against heavily armed gunmen in a crowded room. He had on body armor, the rows of chairs would have presumably interfered with leg-shots, and shots to the arms would not completely incapacitate him. I recall in the infamous Hollywood shootout, even when hit in exposed areas, the robbers were so pumped up that they kept on going... and going... and going... and going... And these men weren't quite as psychotic...

Do we have any facts about what body armor he was actually wearing? How strong was it? How much did it cover?

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the media mistook a tactical vest or plate carrier for "body armor"...

*snip*

I don't think that it's as hard to shoot somebody like Holmes as you're making it out to be.

Especially if the person with their finger on the trigger is a CCW permit holder and has trained/prepared to shoot another human being (such as the ones that I know).

We could talk about the details for ages. I'm still confident that an armed populace is a greater deterrent than an unarmed one. Famine covered this earlier.

 

[niky]

No, no we don't.

What I'm pointing out, though, is that if he had even the most basic level of body armor, the stoppage and penetration of your typical pistol round against an assailant who is protected and obviously not in the right frame of mind is quite questionable. Your typical shooter is trained to shoot center mass, not go for fancy and difficult head shots.

It's not hard to take down a gunman in a dark, hazy, crowded theater full of screaming people? Really? Unless the rescuer were coming from behind him, completely out of the line of fire, his ability to return fire and kill the gunman will be severely compromised.