Short shifting in gt sport doesn't make sense.

[Strangereal]

I don't understand what this is. I watch replays over and over trying to understand why people that shift early save significantly more fuel without losing any time or power. I'm fairly positive this is not how it works in real world racing. I do understand the benefits of short shifting when taking corners. It grants you stability when cornering because you're at low rpms and less torque. So why the h*** does this game make it to where short shifting all the time makes you save godly amounts of fuel. This is basically cheating. Especially if you have a wheel. You would be able to manage your tires and control even when they are very worn. I've seen people go all the way through an endurance race without a single pitstop and win the race even if they started in 6th or even last. I honestly think this shouldn't be allowed in the game. If it stays, I dare someone to short shift during one of those official championships polyphony likes to do and see the person that short shift only have to stop once in a 2 hour race when everyone else has to stop 3 times. Anyone opposed and why? I'd like to discuss why this makes sense, how this benefits, and where is this applicable in real life (when short shifting for an entire race saves fuel in gte,gt3,lmp1, etc...)

 

[kilesa4568]

Less engine revs, less fuel used. Some cars are better than others too. I don't know if this is up to date but you should take a look at it anyway:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-sport-fuel-consumption-list-tire-usage.372334/

 

[DriftMethod]

Especially if you have a wheel. You would be able to manage your tires and control even when they are very worn.

I'm confused why having a wheel makes a difference.

Short shifting is one of the best strategies! Follow another car and short shift while drafting, then easy overtake in the pit since you spend less time refueling. Like @kilesa4568 said, it does depend on the car.

Maybe GT Sport isn't the most realistic in terms of short shifting vs. fuel mixture, but it's definitely a part of motorsports, even at the highest levels like F1.

 

[ARTAsean]

Some people use AT, others learn MT because they want to be faster.

Some people use Aids, others learn to drive without them because they want to be faster.

Some people use fuel map, others learn to short shift because... they want to be faster.

You see? Short shifting is just another tool in the toolbox that separates a group of racers into a higher tier of abilities. Just a way of "min/maxing" to go around a track by a few tenths faster.

If you don't want to learn the nuances of a strategy, that's fine. But don't punish the people who do...

 

[vvise]

I don't understand what this is. I watch replays over and over trying to understand why people that shift early save significantly more fuel without losing any time or power.

You're mistaken, you lose some time and power. Nobody is out there short shifting for qualifying.

It's part of the strategy, saving fuel and tires on daily c races and in fia is honestly one of my favourite parts of this game.

 

[micmansour]

Depends on the car, aspiration type, and what the power band looks like. Short shifting a Honda S2000 is of no benefit, rather a cost to your performance due to the fact it needs Revs to make power and torque. Short shifting a turbo car with most of it's torque in the middle of the rev range makes sense (e.g. Mazda MPS3), as the car may be running out of puff at the top of the rev range. That, and the fact Revs kill engines, and Revs = more fuel use.

 

[TonyJZX]

Think about how ridiculous this premise is. The game should ban shortshifting because it saves fuel.

It should force everyone to shift at the redline.

What is this??? Let's force everyone to use automatic!

I mean with manual, you can CHOOSE YOUR GEARS! That's cheating. The computer should make the same shifting for everyone for an even playing field.

 

[05XR8]

Think about how ridiculous this premise is. The game should ban shortshifting because it saves fuel.

It should force everyone to shift at the redline.

What is this??? Let's force everyone to use automatic!

I mean with manual, you can CHOOSE YOUR GEARS! That's cheating. The computer should make the same shifting for everyone for an even playing field.

Are you serious?! That's like having everyone use the same tyre compounds in the Daily Races. Oh, wait...

 

[kilesa4568]

How would the OP know about fuel saving if they used auto? Well now they know.

I don't think ridiculing will help...

 

[TonyJZX]

Controlling consumables is a normal thing for decades. Maybe to you guys a gearbox is a consumable...

 

[Strangereal]

Thank you for the responses.
Kilesa thank you for the link it is very enlightening.

DriftMethod, I would say a wheel has slight more benefit because you are able to feel the track with ffb and you would be able to correct yourself with more control. However if you tried to make the same precise corrections with a pad, then it would (I believe) would be substantially more difficult.

ARTAsean, I see how you could compare those. It makes sense when you put it that way, however, my question still stands, how does this compare to real life racing? I know it's a simcade but I swear up and down I never see real gte/gt3 drivers shift halfway to save more fuel in their races.

Vvise, I see. However I do have recordings of people pulling away with 6 second leads before we pit even though I'm using automatic (even though I would haven't made any mistakes). You could argue it's a gap between skill but still I consider myself a decent player and it just seems unfair.

Micman, okay for the s2k and a few other cars but do you see gt3 cars irl shifting early to save fuel and utilising the most torque at their specific rpm?

Tony, how is it a rediculous premise? This is supposed to be a racing sim, isn't it? So tell me where you see this in real life gt racing. I'm not saying to ban it because it is just some "op strategy" I'm saying fix it because that's not how real racing works (from what I can tell)

Btw ty everyone for the feedback. I honestly want to know how people feel.

 

[Amaru]

Think about how ridiculous this premise is. The game should ban shortshifting because it saves fuel.

It should force everyone to shift at the redline.

What is this??? Let's force everyone to use automatic!

I mean with manual, you can CHOOSE YOUR GEARS! That's cheating. The computer should make the same shifting for everyone for an even playing field.

I'm wondering if you're being serious or if you're being sarcastic with this post...

I sure hope you're being sarcastic... the "argument" of manual gearboxes being a way to cheat, will make a countless amount of actual racing teams burst out in laughter If they'd ever hear that statement. Or forcing drivers to shift at the redline...

I'm truly curious if you're serious or sarcastic.

 

[Riptide]

Some harsh comments on your question, but unfortunately [or fortunately] they're all very true. Most of the leading SIM [and arcade] racing games has unrealistic elements to a higher or lesser degree, hence players will use them best to make them faster - and I think rightfully so. Far worse for me is the counter steering aid in GTS, but most of the top guys are using it [pre-current FIA series] because it provides benefits on some cars, so others will follow. It's up to ourselves to decide if we follow suite or stay behind. I must admit the fuel strategies in GTS gives an extra dimension to racing and I really enjoy that.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

The forgotten impact here though is of course the fuel burn rate set for the race.

I haven't bothered to test it, but I doubt a race set at 1x fuel consumption (ie. "real world") yields the same benefits from short shifting as one set to 5x.
So in that sense, yes it is "ungodly".

No question those using automatic gearboxes are at a disadvantage here.
And the transition to manual can be difficult, particularly if using a controller.
But the benefits from using a manual gearbox go well beyond simply saving fuel, so the incentive is there to give it a go.

The long term gains from mastering manual gears should soon overwrite the (somewhat) short term pains of learning the skill.

 

[UnkaD]

The forgotten impact here though is of course the fuel burn rate set for the race.

I haven't bothered to test it, but I doubt a race set at 1x fuel consumption (ie. "real world") yields the same benefits from short shifting as one set to 5x.
So in that sense, yes it is "ungodly"

This is a good point. It's like the accelerated tire wear. In Sport races, the smallest bit of slide or wheel spin in just one corner can completely kill the rest of a stint for me. So small changes in fuel usage can have an equally exaggerated effect as well.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'm not saying to ban it because it is just some "op strategy" I'm saying fix it because that's not how real racing works (from what I can tell).

As @Tassie_tiger points out, I don't think it's about whether or not short-shifting works in real racing, it's more about the fact that GTS has truncated race lengths with exaggerated consumption, so the effects of short shifting are more noticeable... really the game is forcing a pit strategy situation where there wouldn't necessarily be one in real life.

Short shifting does happen in the real world, it's just that the scenarios for it to be relevant are fewer than is portrayed in the game.

Lifting and coasting briefly into a braking zone is also a technique I've heard discussed for saving a small amount of fuel.

 

[Coiler]

@OP Short shifting is 100% legit but to make it work you have to short shift aka use manual.

 

[eran0004]

An engine is most fuel efficient at peak torque (which changes in RPM depending on the throttle).

Pretty sure short shifting is used in real racing as well, the biggest difference is that with, say x5 fuel consumption, the pit stops are proportionally a much bigger part of the race, so if you can go from two stops to one stop it’s more beneficial in GT Sport than in GT3 racing.

 

[Macboyilija]

It grants you stability when cornering because you're at low rpms and less torque.

This is not true for all cars. There are enough Gr 3 cars where at low revs the torque is so high that you will spin when stepping full on the gas. So there are benefits, but there are also down sides. It all depends on the car and thus the best strategy. That is part of racing.

I do think PD should be adjusting the tyre and fuel wear more so that everyone needs to pit and refuel. I am pretty sure this was intended in the long races. If not, they can adjust it to be like that.

 

[GT_Alex74]

First, bear in mind some cars are faster with some amount of short shifting rather than going up to the revlimit. This is just because of their power curve falling down too much in the higher RPMs (Corvette Gr.3 is a good example).

Sadly, the game can't simulate all the complex variations in fuel pressure that happens in different scenarios on a ECU map. So by using only 3 basic things (throttle position, power and revs), it makes the fuel consumption variations probably more linear than real life, and I think that's what makes short shifting so efficient in the game. The wear rates don't make it more efficient per se, even on x1 rate, you still save the same amount of fuel per stint by short shifting, but yeah, the shorter the stints, the less time you're losing in between pits.

In real life, short shifting is widely used in endurance, but that's partly to avoid Michael Bay happening under the hood.

 

[cleanLX]

As @Tassie_tiger points out, I don't think it's about whether or not short-shifting works in real racing, it's more about the fact that GTS has truncated race lengths with exaggerated consumption, so the effects of short shifting are more noticeable... really the game is forcing a pit strategy situation where there wouldn't necessarily be one in real life.

Short shifting does happen in the real world, it's just that the scenarios for it to be relevant are fewer than is portrayed in the game.

Lifting and coasting briefly into a braking zone is also a technique I've heard discussed for saving a small amount of fuel.

Exactly this... in the real world short shifting may gain you a lap in every 20, or, a few seconds of fuel time per pit... it surely will not be the difference between pitting on lap 5 or making it all 8 laps, and, if someone did try this in real life they would be so far off the pace they would not be a contender.
Additionally, in the real world, if a car was able to go several laps further than the remainder of the field by short shifting while maintaining pace, BoP revisions would be implemented to either cut power, or reduce fuel capacity of that make... to even the field...something PD has yet to do.
Game vs real world... a debate i too struggle with.

 

[mthomas_95]

As amusing as it is jumping 3-4 people in the pits by fuel saving I'd much rather they had the fuel set at x1 or x2 and have the starting fuel load set for around 2/3 race distance at full pace. Keeps the strategy element alive and makes fuel saving less OP.

 

[rex1825]

Less engine revs, less fuel used. Some cars are better than others too. I don't know if this is up to date but you should take a look at it anyway:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-sport-fuel-consumption-list-tire-usage.372334/

It is current...

 

[Strangereal]

Okay so what I'm getting here is that things like this in a game are inevitable and should be welcomed and used as a strategy to win races. I can see that. I do believe it still put an overly supreme advantage to those who do that. Eventually everyone will need to do this in order to win. Now i guess thats okay (it will still conflict in my head but now i understand more peoples take on the matter) Do you think pd will sit on that when they hold championships? I'm not sure if they have even noticed the short shifting strategy. I wonder if they will also deem it as fair strategy.

 

[cjr3559]

Think about how ridiculous this premise is. The game should ban shortshifting because it saves fuel.

It should force everyone to shift at the redline.

What is this??? Let's force everyone to use automatic!

I mean with manual, you can CHOOSE YOUR GEARS! That's cheating. The computer should make the same shifting for everyone for an even playing field.

It would be amusing if PD forced everyone to use AT because people complain that MT users have an edge, kind of like how the H-pattern is nerfed to prevent having an unfair advantage..

Let’s face it, there are too many people using different views, controls and whatever else to make racing online a level playing field anyway, so I say just do what you can and have fun if you can.

 

[Sander 001]

Subtopic: Why on Earth can’t I burn extra fuel by redlining it in 2nd gear throughout my entire outlap?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Subtopic: Why on Earth can’t I burn extra fuel by redlining it in 2nd gear throughout my entire outlap?

Really? I do that and I usually burn 1-2% more fuel than the others during the FiA qualifiers. Shifting the very moment the rev hits the limiter, and rev-bouncing on braking zones do the trick for me

 

[vvise]

Subtopic: Why on Earth can’t I burn extra fuel by redlining it in 2nd gear throughout my entire outlap?

you can, it's just less effective than you'd think

 

[rex1825]

Subtopic: Why on Earth can’t I burn extra fuel by redlining it in 2nd gear throughout my entire outlap?

Because you don't use full throttle... It is bouncing on engine limiter, and whenever it bounces it cuts off gas supply and that is doing a lot of times and effectively you are using like 10% of what you'd use if engine was under full load... Basically if you hold throttle on some 15-20%, you'll probably use more fuel in that 2nd gear then holding it to the metal.

What you could do instead is holding car in 2nd, full throttle it and then balance car with brakes so it always is in high rpm, never hitting limiter and yet it is under full load (full throttle).

 

[eran0004]

This is not true for all cars. There are enough Gr 3 cars where at low revs the torque is so high that you will spin when stepping full on the gas. So there are benefits, but there are also down sides. It all depends on the car and thus the best strategy. That is part of racing.

The torque figure is irrelevant because it only shows the torque at the flywheel. The gearbox is a torque multiplier, dividing speed to multiply the torque, so the amount of torque you get at the wheel is a product of torque, gear ratio and final drive ratio.

For example
60 Nm x 1.2 gear ratio x 4 final drive= 288 Nm
70 Nm x 0.9 gear ratio x 4 final drive = 252 Nm

What you should look at instead is the power curve: if you get more power by shifting to a taller gear (which very rarely is the case), then you’d get more wheel torque as well. But in that case you shouldn’t even be in such high revs to begin with, since you’re only wasting fuel. If you need less power for some reason it’s better to go for an even taller gear instead, since you get much better fuel economy that way.