Short shifting in gt sport doesn't make sense.

I don't understand what this is. I watch replays over and over trying to understand why people that shift early save significantly more fuel without losing any time or power. I'm fairly positive this is not how it works in real world racing.

I'd like to discuss why this makes sense, how this benefits, and where is this applicable in real life (when short shifting for an entire race saves fuel in gte,gt3,lmp1, etc...)

Apart the fact they do indeed use A LOT of shortshifting in real world racing. In some forms of racing more than others. And, as already said, depends on the engine torque curve to loose (or not) lots of torque when you shortshift, and of course the gear ratios have to be adjusted. The diesel engines usually are great to shortshift, as they have plenty of torque at low revs and not so much at the max revs, a high rev naturally aspired engine usually is the opposite. But also, in many forms of racing nowadays, it's used air intake restrictor rigs, that mess up with everything, because engineers and mechanics have to tune engines to deal with that, p.ex. old WRC cars should have lots of torque at mid revs, but because the restrictor rigs, they had to tune the engines to higher revs and not so much torque at med revs.
In particular LMP1 cars, with maximum amount of fuel per lap, they use it. In other endurance classes in less extent. Of course that, this year, on LM24h there was a regulated number of laps per stint, so there was no really need to save fuel.
Some years ago, when Indycars had a lot less aero, the 6th gear on ovals was only used to save fuel, in fact you had to shortshift to engage it, because the 5th gear usually was set to get the top speed a little before the rev limiter.
 
...in recent event with IRS we had, I was driving the 908HDi FAP detuned to LMP2 specs, this car was a beast with torque and fuel economy. Especially since you can short shift hell out of it and still get too much of power... Basically I was shifting it just about when it starts to fill the shift bar and no speed, acceleration, time loss...
 
Can anyone link me a video example of this real world short shifting. If you all seem to have seen it I'm sure someone can point me in the direction of being a believer.
 
Does anybody know why some cars don’t have an extra gear for fuel saving?

Like both GT3 McLaren and Ferrari only have 6 gears while their slower GT4 versions have 7 gears. I thought maybe it’s a regulation that GT3 cars can only have 6 gears but then some other GT3 cars like the Renault has a 7 speed gearbox.
 
I don't get it either... sure, the less rotations an engine does the less power it needs so the less fuel is consumed. However, the main factor of fuel consumption aren't revs. It's the power the engine makes. And seeing how it works in GTS I must say it doesn't work right. Take a look at Corvette GT3 power band for example. The best moment to upshift is way before the redline (I mean the blinking bar). So, shifting early actually makes the engine produce more power than letting the revs go to the limit. Therefore it makes no sense why this technique saves fuel.

Does anybody know why some cars don’t have an extra gear for fuel saving?

Like both GT3 McLaren and Ferrari only have 6 gears while their slower GT4 versions have 7 gears. I thought maybe it’s a regulation that GT3 cars can only have 6 gears but then some other GT3 cars like the Renault has a 7 speed gearbox.

Yes 6-speed gearbox is mandatory in GT3 class. Why Renault and the ridiculous Beetle have 7-speed gearbox is beyond me.
 
Link to the thread is here (event)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...astern-congratulations-to-the-winners.378601/

And here is the winners stream, he was short shifting:


Here is my stream, I short shifted even more (srry for bad resolution, low bandwidth):

At the current time, guy in front of me was using same car, but didn't short shift as I did, drafting was set to real, so it didn't help that much but again I was gaining like hell...
 
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Does anybody know why some cars don’t have an extra gear for fuel saving?

Like both GT3 McLaren and Ferrari only have 6 gears while their slower GT4 versions have 7 gears. I thought maybe it’s a regulation that GT3 cars can only have 6 gears but then some other GT3 cars like the Renault has a 7 speed gearbox.

The GT4 cars that are real are only Audi TT, Porsche Cayman Club Sport and Renault Megane Trophy 2011, all other cars are PD imagination, but basically GT4 cars are based on real world cars with just a bit of aero and ripped off interior, while GT3 cars have their own rules and are far from real world cars, yet it changes throughout the years, so some of them have 7 speeds... Especially new ones like R.S.01...
Then again at least we have a lot of real GT3 cars and just some of them are PD imagination of Gr.3
 
@rex1825 thanks for the links. So I see how it is used in championships for gts. Do you gave any real world examples? Like from the IMSA weather tech championship or the WEC fia races?
 
@rex1825 thanks for the links. So I see how it is used in championships for gts. Do you gave any real world examples? Like from the IMSA weather tech championship or the WEC fia races?

...sadly some of the strategies are closed to people, simple not to be seen by other teams. And I don't know any links to that kind of videos, but it is obvious that this sort of things are used a lot in racing, especially where fuel management comes in hand...
 
As it appears it seems that PD in the GR4 class follow roughly the guidelines taken from the IMSA sanctioning body.

IMSA classes would basically be the equivalent as follows;

GR1- Prototype
CARS: Acura ARX-05 DPi, Cadillac DPi-V.R, Mazda RT24-P, Nissan DPi, Onroak Ligier JS P217, ORECA 07, Multimatic Riley MK30
ENGINES: Gibson 4.5L NA V8, Mazda 2.0L Turbo I4, Acura 3.5L Twin-Turbo V6, Nisan 3.8L Twin Turbo V6, Cadillac NA V
GEARBOX: 6-speed paddle shift
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Permitted

GR3-GTLM
CARS: BMW M8 GTE, Chevrolet Corvette C7.R, Ferrari 488 GTE, Ford GT, Porsche 911 RSR
ENGINES: BMW V8 Turbo, 5.5-liter Chevrolet pushrod 2-valve, Ferrari V8 Turbo, Ford EcoBoost Turbo, Porsche flat 6
GEARBOX: 5-speed or 6-speed
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Permitted

GR4-GTD
CARS: Acura NSX GT3, Aston Martin Vantage GT3, Audi R8 LMS GT3, BMW M6 GT3, Ferrari 488 GT3, Lamborghini Huracan GT3, RC F GT3, Mercedes AMG-GT3, Nissan GT3-R, Porsche 911 GT3-R
ENGINES: Acura V6 Turbo, Aston Martin V12, Audi 5.2-liter V10, BMW V8 Turbo, Ferrari V8 Turbo, Lamborghini 5.2-liter V10, Lexus 5.4-liter V8, Mercedes 6.2-liter V8, Porsche 4.0-liter flat 6
GEARBOX: 6-speed
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Permitted
ABS: Permitted

Prototype (P)



The Prototype (P) class features the fastest and most technologically advanced cars in North America. They are specifically designed and engineered for the race track and look drastically different than a typical street car. These cars follow either the Daytona Prototype international (DPi) model or the classic LM P2 model.

GT Le Mans (GTLM)



The GT Le Mans (GTLM) cars are the most elite and fastest GT cars on the track. They are based on production models and are engineered to extract the maximum performance possible. The class serves as a true proving ground for leading manufacturers such as BMW, Corvette, Ferrari, Ford, and Porsche

GT Daytona (GTD)



The GT Daytona cars are enhanced technology. They are also based on production model cars but do not feature the same level of aerodynamics and power as the GTLM class cars. The GTD class consists FIA GT3-spec cars and is the only Pro-Am class in the WeatherTech Championship.
 
And here are some of the testings I made with that same 908HDi FAP - LMP2 (power set to 70%, weight set to 100%) specs before the race.

So RPM is point where I shifted all the time, next is distance I managed to travel and third a time per lap just for reference:

6500rpm ~410km ~0:40.9
6000rpm ~470km ~0:40.3
5500rpm ~535km ~0:40.6

These numbers should say all...
 
Can anyone link me a video example of this real world short shifting. If you all seem to have seen it I'm sure someone can point me in the direction of being a believer.

Here is Jann demonstrating short shifting:



And Harry Tincknell (Ford driver at Le Mans) mentioning short shifting: https://drivetribe.com/p/behind-the...1Q5_T_Gm8upXB6VE4A?iid=Lq2e50SXScSrONfYxx7Blw

Skärmbild (729).png

Lewis Hamilton: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/26767232

Skärmbild (730).png
 
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1 - part of tacho, rpm bar, basically PD's shift bar
2 - brake pedal % bar
3 - gas pedal % bar
4 - tacho, rpm bar

That shift bar, represented as 1 should be custom for every car, not just a percentage (let's say 90-95%) of current cars rpm, this is mistake that PD has made. Not every car shifts optimally in race mode on that part, sadly even more is that AT tranny is always shifting at the end of that bar.

For example Atenza has a diesel engine that should shift latest on 4400rpm, but AT tranny is shifting it at over 5k, which is waste of time and there is sadly any power at all for the car, this is the reason why car needs so long to shift from 4th to 5th, especially from 5th to 6th.

I just really hope PD will get someone to work for them and fix this...
 
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1 - part of tacho, rpm bar, basically PD's shift bar
2 - brake pedal % bar
3 - gas pedal % bar
4 - tacho, rpm bar

That shift bar, represented as 1 should be custom for every car, not just a percentage (let's say 90-95%) of current cars rpm, this is mistake that PD has made. Not every car shifts optimally in race mode on that part, sadly even more is that AT tranny is always shifting at the end of that bar.

For example Atenza has a diesel engine that should shift latest on 4400rpm, but AT tranny is shifting it at over 5k, which is waste of time and there is sadly any power at all for the car, this is the reason why car needs so long to shift from 4th to 5th, especially from 5th to 6th.

I just really hope PD will get someone to work for them and fix this...

That's not short shifting. Short shifting is when you shift before reaching peak power. Shifting at peak power is just... shifting.
 
nv9sgw.jpg


1 - part of tacho, rpm bar, basically PD's shift bar
2 - brake pedal % bar
3 - gas pedal % bar
4 - tacho, rpm bar

That shift bar, represented as 1 should be custom for every car, not just a percentage (let's say 90-95%) of current cars rpm, this is mistake that PD has made. Not every car shifts optimally in race mode on that part, sadly even more is that AT tranny is always shifting at the end of that bar.

For example Atenza has a diesel engine that should shift latest on 4400rpm, but AT tranny is shifting it at over 5k, which is waste of time and there is sadly any power at all for the car, this is the reason why car needs so long to shift from 4th to 5th, especially from 5th to 6th.

I just really hope PD will get someone to work for them and fix this...

It's matched perfectly in the Super GT cars though.
 
That's not short shifting. Short shifting is when you shift before reaching peak power. Shifting at peak power is just... shifting.

...I didn't say anything about short shifting in this post, just posted it because of @Calmlity 's #43 post

And besides, if that bar would consider peak power for it's end, and peak torque for it's start, it could be used for short shifting...
 
I don't get it either... sure, the less rotations an engine does the less power it needs so the less fuel is consumed. However, the main factor of fuel consumption aren't revs. It's the power the engine makes. And seeing how it works in GTS I must say it doesn't work right. Take a look at Corvette GT3 power band for example. The best moment to upshift is way before the redline (I mean the blinking bar). So, shifting early actually makes the engine produce more power than letting the revs go to the limit. Therefore it makes no sense why this technique saves fuel.

There are a several factors to take into account:

1. Fuel pressure increases with throttle application and is responsible for pushing more fuel into the engine. Therefore more throttle =more fuel consumed.

2. Cylinders have a fixed volume therefore if you are applying a constant fuel/air ratio then more revs will cause a linear increase in the fuel used because each revolution requires another cylinder's worth of fuel.

3. If you increase the gear but keep a constant speed and throttle opening then you will consume less fuel because you are lowering the revs

4. (edit**absent drag) Speed has nothing to do with fuel consumption (3500rpm at 100mph with a fixed throttle is the same fuel burning rate as 3500rpm at 50mph with the same fixed throttle)

5. Power = [torque*rpm]/5252

so power comes from torque and rpm but torque has little effect on the fuel consumption rate. If you lower the rpm and increase the torque you can reduce the fuel consumption.
 
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And here are some of the testings I made with that same 908HDi FAP - LMP2 (power set to 70%, weight set to 100%) specs before the race.

So RPM is point where I shifted all the time, next is distance I managed to travel and third a time per lap just for reference:

6500rpm ~410km ~0:40.9
6000rpm ~470km ~0:40.3
5500rpm ~535km ~0:40.6

These numbers should say all...

These numbers leave me with a few questions.
First, how many laps were does that km reading come out to, which track is this?
Second, is that average time, fastest lap, or optimal?
Third, how did you correct for getting better?

I'm assuming you did those in order 6500, 6000, 5500 which is why the first high rev 6500 is actually slower. Then as you got more practice your times improved. But I'm not familiar with that car and it's gearbox, maybe it has very strange gears.
 
...maybe not in game (simulation vise), but in real life it has, and a lot...
Well ill concede that with more drag you have to apply more throttle to go the same speed... so theres that, but otherwise inertia does the rest
 
Take a look at Corvette GT3 power band for example. The best moment to upshift is way before the redline (I mean the blinking bar). So, shifting early actually makes the engine produce more power than letting the revs go to the limit. .
is this correct? I think it still makes less power at the wheels because of gearing.
 
These numbers leave me with a few questions.
First, how many laps were does that km reading come out to, which track is this?
Second, is that average time, fastest lap, or optimal?
Third, how did you correct for getting better?

I'm assuming you did those in order 6500, 6000, 5500 which is why the first high rev 6500 is actually slower. Then as you got more practice your times improved. But I'm not familiar with that car and it's gearbox, maybe it has very strange gears.
The 908 makes a lot more horsepower at 6000 rpm than it does at 6500 rpm. That why it was faster.
 
These numbers leave me with a few questions.
First, how many laps were does that km reading come out to, which track is this?
Second, is that average time, fastest lap, or optimal?
Third, how did you correct for getting better?

I'm assuming you did those in order 6500, 6000, 5500 which is why the first high rev 6500 is actually slower. Then as you got more practice your times improved. But I'm not familiar with that car and it's gearbox, maybe it has very strange gears.

...Blue Moon Bay II, and order has nothing to do with practice TBH etc... even after testing over and over it is same... why track? Because it is power track so it is basically worse fuel MPG that you can get...

This is the setup

Cheers...
 
...maybe not in game (simulation vise), but in real life it has, and a lot...

In game as well, due to the drag. The example is true in vacuum.

Edit:

is this correct? I think it still makes less power at the wheels because of gearing.

Power is independent of gearing. A gearbox trades speed for torque, but since power is torque x speed it remains the same regardless of gearing. 2 torque x 4 speed is the same power (8) as 4 torque x 2 speed. That means that the power at the wheel is the same as the power at the flywheel.

So for the statement to be correct, all it takes is for the power curve to drop so sharply that shifting up takes you to a higher point on the power curve.

Edit 2: A funny anecdote. I was testing a car in GT6 for a series by @Sick Cylinder, and this particular car was so heavily restricted that the power curve was completely flat for about 2/3rds of the rpm range. I was experimenting with gear ratios to try and find the most optimal setup, and to my surprise I found that the performance was identical regardless of what I did with the gearbox! That’s when I decided to look up what power and torque actually is :P
 
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