Should the US return to the Gold Standard?

[arora]

Ah, ok then, but you can't really judge what Paul or Jesus deem more important. The healthiest of babies born into a broken system may very well have an equally hard go as an unhealty one in a perfect world. What you are actually questioning has no right/wrong answer, if he says he is guided by Jesus so be it, who cares what you think Jesus finds more pressing, what maters is what Paul finds pressing, Jesus or not. Paul's principals do not waiver, he's steady on his course like him or not.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Unless gold mining mirrors this growth...

What does this have to do with GDP growth?

 

[Dapper]

Ah, ok then, but you can't really judge what Paul or Jesus deem more important. The healthiest of babies born into a broken system may very well have an equally hard go as an unhealty one in a perfect world. What you are actually questioning has no right/wrong answer, if he says he is guided by Jesus so be it, who cares what you think Jesus finds more pressing, what maters is what Paul finds pressing, Jesus or not. Paul's principals do not waiver, he's steady on his course like him or not.

He is an Ob/gyn right?
In a campaign full of social topics, with health care growing all the time and always growing to be a bigger and bigger political issue, it frustrates me the guy won't talk about what he is an expert in and what is directly related to the political issues in this years election.

At Road dogg33J- Picture that graph as stacks of gold going up.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

At Road dogg33J- Picture that graph as stacks of gold going up.

So you think GDP should be measured in gold instead of dollars?

 

[Dapper]

So you think GDP should be measured in gold instead of dollars?

That's what you think.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If we used the gold standard we could measure GDP in gold.

 

[Dapper]

If we used the gold standard we could measure GDP in gold.

Right!👍 So if the US comes up with the greatest thing ever, like the Internet, and the US doesn't mine gold to fund it, it won't happen. rinse repeat.

 

[arora]

OK, but he's been a proffesional polotician for how many years? I sure as hell would not want to hear Al Frankin talk about comedy if he was MY state representative in the congress, or whatever he is.

 

[Dapper]

The dude delivered over 4,000 babies, mostly natural I bet.
It would only play to his strengths to address issues that he is qualified to address. And these issues are at no less than the political forefront.

Pregnancies with shorter hospital stays and that are more convenient is not worth the cost of life time Medicare or SSI.

Edit- Plus, I may be entrenched in the pitocin mystery. It is personal; If you were me and he was your representative, your head would explode if he never addressed these things. I'm working up to writing him myself!

 

[arora]

Fair enough.

 

[Luminis]

With no new output, it wouldn't change. Supply/demand...

Er... Supply increases, demand stays the same, Y goes down and, thus, equals the amount of gold without that amount of gold increasing.

Ugh... what caused the bubble?! Investors how?

You didn't realy bother to read up on the subject, did you? I'll keep this short.

1) Real estate is cheap to buy.
2) Investors start investing (read: buying) real estate as they're expecting high growth rates.
3) Growth rates start increasing, more investors start investing in real estate.
4) Prices increase dramatically, especially as the so-called subprime lending enabled people to buy overpriced houses still.

And there you've got a bubble. Investors investing large sums of money into a market and, thus, rapidly increasing the growth rate for that specific market, which then results by largely inflated prices. Problem is, however, that those don't necessarily reflect the intrinsic value of a given good. As a result, prices can tumble down just as fast as they've grown.

Now, the housing bubble isn't all there is to the matter, obviously. But, well, did you ever stop and think, for a second, what would've happened if people weren't going crazy over homeownership? For one thing, the bubble wouldn't have grown as fast, as the demand would've been lower.

Second, imagine if people were actually intelligent enough, and this brings me back to my initial point, to not take out loans that go pop. Just try to imagine how everything would've went in this case. No/less foreclosures due to which investors and banks lose money by the billion which, in turn, would very well have prevented a lot of the economical damage we've seen since 2008.

I'm not, and I'd like to stress that, saying that it's only the people fault. But do you actually want to claim that the people had no influence on the whole matter?

Ask nicely and I'll link you to objective answers.

Based on your posts so far, I'd say that I'd rather pass on a lesson in economics from you. Sorry.

Did you ever hear of the dot com bubble? The result of investors...

Precisely. Economic bubbles are usually the consequenze of large sums of money being invested into a specific part of the market in expectations of growing revenues - resulting in said bubble. The housing bubble was, obviously, no different.

The thing about the housing bubble is it a good example of the government doing the wrong thing, and not doing enough... Albeit I stick with the 'not doing enough' side of things usually.

I wouldn't even disagree with that. Had government all around the world reigned in the financial market sooner (for example by forbidding such things as subprime lending), a lot of damage could've been prevented. All I'm saying, though, is that you have to look at all parties involved in the matter, which includes governments, banks and other financial service provider as well as those who actually took out loans they couldn't pay back over the irrationaly strong wish of homeownership.

Just to emphasise on this: Had the people themselves not started to take out loans that were soon to bust, there wouldn't have been anywhere near as many problems to reign in, in the first place.

And there was no Dot com bubble.

What? I don't even

It's stuff like this that seriously makes me think you're just trolling.

I don't wish for anyone to advocate a currupt system, that would be silly. I think you missed my point but whatever, big gov is not the answer, to many croonies, personal responsability is a start, add some morality and compassion, you might get somewhere.

👍 I don't get why so many people are always trying to get away from having a bit of personal responsibility. Nobody want to be controlled by the government, but everyone wants the government to fix each and every issue. I mean, what?

 

[Azuremen]

And there was no Dot com bubble. That is just a manifestation of exponential technology growth; It was perfectly presictable and expected.

It was the definition of a bubble - massive amounts of money being invested into numerous, and often, redundant businesses that only had value because of the investors. The major companies that came out from that era, such as Amazon, were not rushing to generate profits for their investors.

Honestly, you must be a troll I'm beginning to think.

. And Autism is now becoming as prevalent as red hair with no known cause. I am sure JC would be happier with his public service advocating woman and children's health over archaic monetary systems.

Autism isn't increasing in cases, just diagnosis. Unless you've got actual numbers to indicate otherwise, which is unlikely given how the term has even only recently caught on and is beginning to feel a bit like the ADD issues of the 90's.

 

[Dapper]

Er... Supply increases, demand stays the same, Y goes down and, thus, equals the amount of gold without that amount of gold increasing.

Under the gold standard, supply only increase when more gold is mined.

You didn't realy bother to read up on the subject, did you? I'll keep this short.

1) Real estate is cheap to buy.
2) Investors start investing (read: buying) real estate as they're expecting high growth rates.
3) Growth rates start increasing, more investors start investing in real estate.
4) Prices increase dramatically, especially as the so-called subprime lending enabled people to buy overpriced houses still.

Real estate price growth stayed the same (I posted a graph).
Income growth and the growth of new homes being built remained the same. All easily checkable facts

The supply and demand seemingly stayed the same! Here is a wrinkle. You attribute the debt to investors, yet all the debt was tied up in single family mortgages...

So, you got #4 right.

Demand increased due to lowered requirements for house loans (from needing 25% down to 0% down in about 30 years!), and I won't mention the contributing government programs that exacerbate the problem. Demand pull inflation spawned by people with no pulling power is what happened... all under the guise of the government. Now, let me be clear, the public DID NOT CHANGE. The 'want' to own a home did not change, American's aspirations did not change. The capitalist loaning money changed... and they made enough money to buy congress.

All I'm saying, though, is that you have to look at all parties involved in the matter, which includes governments, banks and other financial service provider as well as those who actually took out loans they couldn't pay back over the irrationaly strong wish of homeownership.

Just to emphasise on this: Had the people themselves not started to take out loans that were soon to bust, there wouldn't have been anywhere near as many problems to reign in, in the first place.

👍 I don't get why so many people are always trying to get away from having a bit of personal responsibility. Nobody want to be controlled by the government, but everyone wants the government to fix each and every issue. I mean, what?

Well, the government has control of everything else, or can regulate them, in the US. Waiting for millions to exercise personal responsibility is going to be a fruitless wait, and will end in further financial despair. Or even expecting millions to understand the lengthy loan/mortgage contract they are signing is going to end unfulfilled expectations.

 

[Liquid]

You know, with the April Fool smilies Dapper's posts make a bit more sense.

 

[Luminis]

Under the gold standard, supply only increase when more gold is mined.

Wrong. Under the gold standard, the amount of circulating money only increases when more gold is mined.

Real estate price growth stayed the same (I posted a graph).
Income growth and the growth of new homes being built remained the same. All easily checkable facts

Explain this graph, then.

The supply and demand seemingly stayed the same! Here is a wrinkle. You attribute the debt to investors, yet all the debt was tied up in single family mortgages...

So, you got #4 right.

Demand increased due to lowered requirements for house loans (from needing 25% down to 0% down in about 30 years!), and I won't mention the contributing government programs that exacerbate the problem. Demand pull inflation spawned by people with no pulling power is what happened... all under the guise of the government. Now, let me be clear, the public DID NOT CHANGE. The 'want' to own a home did not change, American's aspirations did not change. The capitalist loaning money changed... and they made enough money to buy congress.

I'll just refer you to this link.

Well, the government has control of everything else, or can regulate them, in the US. Waiting for millions to exercise personal responsibility is going to be a fruitless wait, and will end in further financial despair. Or even expecting millions to understand the lengthy loan/mortgage contract they are signing is going to end unfulfilled expectations.

So, you basically agree that the people are too dumb to decide what's good for them and need to be reigned in, but you refuse to admit that part of the fualt is also theirs? Quite the logic, yeah.

 

[Dapper]

Wrong. Under the gold standard, the amount of circulating money only increases when more gold is mined.

Right, that money either makes the supply or becomes part of the demand.

Explain this graph, then.

Real, inflation adjusted vs nominal.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RT_tUbUA3...A/s1600/Inflation-Adjusted+Housing+Prices.jpg

Virtually no price change in houses from mid 1940's until 2000, and minimal change throughout the century.

So, you basically agree that the people are too dumb to decide what's good for them and need to be reigned in, but you refuse to admit that part of the fualt is also theirs? Quite the logic, yeah.

Blaming people for taking loans they previously couldn't get is exactly the same as blaming Nimmi Nims (my dog, Nina) for getting into the garbage that's in the garage.

If you put crack in front of a crack head, they are gonna smoke it.
If there is no crack, they can't smoke crack.
Mortgage=Crack

edit- Is that your vid, Keef?

 

[Luminis]

Real, inflation adjusted vs nominal.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RT_tUbUA3...A/s1600/Inflation-Adjusted+Housing+Prices.jpg

Virtually no price change in houses from mid 1940's until 2000, and minimal change throughout the century.

Uh, yeah, and then, you've got a HUGE spike, the housing bubble. I don't get what you're trying to get at, sorry.

Blaming people for taking loans they previously couldn't get is exactly the same as blaming Nimmi Nims (my dog, Nina) for getting into the garbage that's in the garage.

You keep saying that you want to base the dollar on "the people who invented Watson" and, at the same time, you liken them to a dog. See why I doubt that that's going to work out?

 

[Dapper]

Uh, yeah, and then, you've got a HUGE spike, the housing bubble. I don't get what you're trying to get at, sorry.

The spike is lowering of requirements for mortgages... from 20-25% down with great credit to 0%with no credit.... Demand pull inflation due to lower requirements, nothing more.

You keep saying that you want to base the dollar on "the people who invented Watson" and, at the same time, you liken them to a dog. See why I doubt that that's going to work out?

In a land of 300,000,000+ people and considering the the Bell Curve, making legislation to keep the people not worthy of investment from destroying what they don't understand AND make legislation that allows the investment worthy folks to flourish is doable.

 

[Luminis]

The spike is lowering of requirements for mortgages... from 20-25% down with great credit to 0%with no credit.... Demand pull inflation due to lower requirements, nothing more.

Do you honestly believe that nobody invested into the market as soon as mortgages became available for everybody and their mother? At the time, you would have been a fool to not expect the explosiv growth rate.

In a land of 300,000,000+ people and considering the the Bell Curve, making legislation to keep then one's not worthy of investment from destroying what they don't understand AND make legislation that allows the investment worthy folks to flourish.

See, the gold standard would, in and off itself, prevent them from doing as much harm as has been done. Which is why it has been advocated quite a bit recently.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Considering the US is the most innovative, valuable country on Earth, everything you say has no basis.

Oh for goodness sake...

It being April 1st, I'll pretend you weren't actually that arrogant to type this.

 

[Dapper]

Do you honestly believe that nobody invested into the market as soon as mortgages became available for everybody and their mother? At the time, you would have been a fool to not expect the explosive growth rate.

Nonetheless, no sub-prime lendees, no problems. You are concerned with tertiary issues.

See, the gold standard would, in and off itself, prevent them from doing as much harm as has been done. Which is why it has been advocated quite a bit recently.

It is easy to avoid recessions if there is no growth.

Anyone ever wonder why we left the gold standard?

Oh for goodness sake...

It being April 1st, I'll pretend you weren't actually that arrogant to type this.

You act like it is personal just because I live here.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp-nominal
http://www-958.ibm.com/software/dat...ualizations/pie-chart-of-gdp-top-58-countries (pie chart)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population_in_2005

 

[Luminis]

Nonetheless, no sub-prime lendees, no problems. You are concerned with tertiary issues.

No market for subprime lending, no subprime lenders. You're trying to cure the simptoms, not the desease.

It is easy to avoid recessions if there is no growth.

No growth, no growth, then how did the US manage to have economic growth under the gold standard?

Anyone ever wonder why we left the gold standard?

You're constantly accusing the government of their faults, and you defend their action when they took all the monetary power and gave it to the federal reserve, to freely regulate it?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Inflation does not equal growth.

 

[Dapper]

No market for subprime lending, no subprime lenders. You're trying to cure the simptoms, not the desease.

You are disregarding all of US history. For 200+ years there were no sub prime lendees.
And I am being real, just not ideologically sound, that's all. I'll concede to human faults.

No growth, no growth, then how did the US manage to have economic growth under the gold standard?

I'll try and put things in context. Technology is not wagons.
A broadband network probably needs more investment than a cool wagon cover.

You're constantly accusing the government of their faults, and you defend their action when they took all the monetary power and gave it to the federal reserve, to freely regulate it?

Yes, our government makes good and bad decisions.

Inflation does not equal growth.

Golf clap! Do you deny the US gdp is growing?

 

[Keef]

Golf clap! Do you deny the US gdp is growing?

At a rate similar to inflation, yes it is growing. In real terms, barely, if at all. There have been small periods of growth and decline for a couple years now but there is little if any growth trend. Layoffs at many companies continue, while official unemployment numbers have gone down as a result of people running out of benefits and no longer being counted by the unemployment system. The actual number of jobless people hovers closer to 15% and has changed very little for years now.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Yes, our government makes good and bad decisions.

Mostly bad and greedy

Golf clap! Do you deny the US gdp is growing?

It would still be growing if the US used the gold standard and we would get a better reflection. Ron Paul does not exactly advocate a pure "gold standard" either. His main focus is on eliminating inflation done by the government just printing money for itself.

At a rate similar to inflation, yes it is growing. In real terms, barely, if at all. There have been small periods of growth and decline for a couple years now but there is little if any growth trend. Layoffs at many companies continue, while official unemployment numbers have gone down as a result of people running out of benefits and no longer being counted by the unemployment system. The actual number of jobless people hovers closer to 15% and has changed very little for years now.

Also, I agree with this. I doubt the GDP has been increasing in recent years.

 

[Dapper]

It would still be growing if the US used the gold standard and we would get a better reflection.

If we mined gold.
No gold, no growth.

And still no reason why we left the gold standard.

http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=us+real+gdp+growth

 

[arora]

A solid gold standered would most likely raise the dollars value in the global markets, a double edged sword but buying power surely stimulates growth for a while. I'm an isolationist anyway lol.

 

[Dapper]

The value of a dollar is exceptional. I am privy to all the information in the world all of the time for maybe $100 initially and $50/month. $50 use to buy one encyclopedia.

 

[arora]

Oh brother.