Should the US return to the Gold Standard?

Isn't that a bit like saying the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true?
It's exactly like that.

If you want to talk in terms of usefulness, our paper money isn't useful for anything except having some imaginary numbers printed on it. It isn't actually paper, it's a cotton and linen blend. It's not good at being paper because it's too expensive to produce it and dispose of it like we do paper, and it's not good at being cloth because it can't wash your car or dry your hair. The only thing they're really good at is getting soggy and falling apart. If we were in an apocalyptic situation, federal reserve notes would be one of the last things on my list of things to pack because they're nigh useless for practical tasks. I would be packing paper to write on and towels do dry things off. Printing imaginary numbers would be the least of my worries. Bottles and cans of beer would make better trading tender, as would small amounts of actual gold and silver for large purchases. If all else fails, at least I've still got gold and silver which have been symbols of wealth and stability and desired by humans for thousands of years.
 
Last edited:
Did I just see someone describing a valuable and persistant commodity...
Wrong right from the start. :indiff:

For clarity, gold's value is set by supply/demand. So is everything that currently backs the US dollar.
 
A 25m cube of it would outstrip your entire whim-based economy: valuable.

Most of it ever found is still in existence: persistant.

It is traded for its usefulness (which gives it value) in myriad fields - including 200 tons of it operating the internet (and probably the same amount again in all IT; around 10g of it runs your wonderful Jeopardy! computer), the most revolutionary invention ever imagined: commodity.
 
:lol: Jesus. I can't be a part of such pointless crap.

You assert that all the gold ever mined is valued at $10tn (ignoring the fact you're valueing a commodity with a fiat currency) while the US economy is valued at $14tn (by its own valuation expressed in the same fiat currency). All the gold ever mined would fit into a 20.2m cube - about 156,000 tons. Since the US economy is 40% more "valuable", it'd take a cube of gold of 40% more volume to represent a higher "value" of gold. This cube is about 22.6m across each side.

Wait, don't tell me. "Minutia" (sic).

Of course the problem you're running into is one where the currency you're using isn't underpinned or funded by anything except the statute books and you're asserting the economy of that same country (in terms of nominal GDP) is more valuable in terms of this whim-currency. It is only the case so long as the law - or lawmakers - says it's the case. How ephemeral.
 
Last edited:
For clarity, gold's value is set by supply/demand.

You say this but then you say that all the gold in the world isn't worth as much as the US economy is. Did it occur to you that if we kept using gold as a currency that gold would simply be worth more?

(This is an argument for buying gold as undervalued btw)

This is the problem with having a physical currency, deflation. As the economy grows if the supply of the physical material being traded doesn't increase, it becomes more valuable. So if you earned $100 worth of gold and stuffed it under your mattress, it would gain value as the economy grew. This does a lot of interesting and bad things when it comes to economies. Deflation stifles growth since it discourages investment in the economy.

It may actually be an optimal scenario that nations have a fiat currency that they inflate as closely as possible with economic growth - so that the currency stays exactly the same value. The government can use that inflation to offset taxes, funding itself with the economic growth of the nation (a good incentive program for government). I know our government prefers small but positive values of inflation - because it sparks a greater incentive to invest, but I think it encourages malinvestment, something that would be more and more visible with large values of inflation.

Lots of libertarians wax poetic about gold standards and killing inflation and how unjust it all is. But to you guys I would say consider this - you can buy gold. There's nothing stopping you from doing so and making your dream of owning something that the government can't inflate a reality. There is one catch that I'd like to see fixed - which is that capital gains tax exists (and it's worse for Gold). But that's a problem with capital gains tax, which shouldn't exist in the first place.

Inflation is an unseen tax for sure, but at least it's a flat tax on everyone. Actually, ironically, inflation probably hurts the poor most - since they're more likely to own dollars. Rich people generally don't keep large portions of their wealth in dollars. They own things like land, diamonds, artwork, etc. that won't be affected by inflation. They also own stocks and commodities which can weather inflation better than dollars. Right now, less than 10% of my assets are in dollars. So in a strange way, inflation is the poor people of this country starting to pay their fair share.

Let's get rid of capital gains so that people can invest in our economy or avoid currency inflation without having to pay tax on government currency debasement.
 
But to you guys I would say consider this - you can buy gold. There's nothing stopping you from doing so and making your dream of owning something that the government can't inflate a reality.
There's one thing that's stopping those to wish for that, though, and that's that gold and silver aren't considered legal tender... One might be able wo own it, but it isn't going to serve as a currency that depends on more than the whim of the fed.
 
You sure can, but buying gold won't replace having a gold-backed currency, does it? Or gold being accepted as legal tender. I can hardly venture into a Walmart and pay my bill with the gold I bought on Ebay. And as long as I can't do that, buying gold will not be a replacement for what people have been asking for, will it?
 
You sure can, but buying gold won't replace having a gold-backed currency, does it? Or gold being accepted as legal tender. I can hardly venture into a Walmart and pay my bill with the gold I bought on Ebay. And as long as I can't do that, buying gold will not be a replacement for what people have been asking for, will it?

Yes it will. Those people are complaining about a devaluation of wealth, not really about ease of transactions. You can keep the vast majority of your wealth in gold and still keep some walking around money as currency. It's not a huge deal to sell off some of your gold so that you can spend it in dollars. And doing so doesn't really increase your inflationary exposure.
 

Of course the problem you're running into is one where the currency you're using isn't underpinned or funded by anything except statute books....
Unplug your ears... or uncover your eyes, and stop repeating the same wrong things.
Watson backs US dollars. I think it safe to say it alone is worth more than ANY amount of gold.



Nice post, Danoff.
 
Can someone explain to me how a computer that can answer trivia questions on Jeopardy is worth anything outside of trivia night at the bar?

If we compare Watson's straight usability as it it is vs the usability of gold, as it is, I'd take the gold. As just bricks it has more non-monetary value to me. Watson won't even play video games.
 
You say this but then you say that all the gold in the world isn't worth as much as the US economy is. Did it occur to you that if we kept using gold as a currency that gold would simply be worth more?

(This is an argument for buying gold as undervalued btw)

This is the problem with having a physical currency, deflation. As the economy grows if the supply of the physical material being traded doesn't increase, it becomes more valuable. So if you earned $100 worth of gold and stuffed it under your mattress, it would gain value as the economy grew. This does a lot of interesting and bad things when it comes to economies. Deflation stifles growth since it discourages investment in the economy.

It may actually be an optimal scenario that nations have a fiat currency that they inflate as closely as possible with economic growth - so that the currency stays exactly the same value. The government can use that inflation to offset taxes, funding itself with the economic growth of the nation (a good incentive program for government). I know our government prefers small but positive values of inflation - because it sparks a greater incentive to invest, but I think it encourages malinvestment, something that would be more and more visible with large values of inflation.....

It seems to me that Danoff and Dapper have both touched upon the problem with having an economy based upon some physical asset, like gold. There is a relatively "fixed" quantity of this physical asset, and therefore there would be an arbitrary limit on how fast an economy could grow if the money supply was directly based upon its value.

It also highlights the disparities between nations and their reserves of gold and their potential ability to acquire additional quantities of gold.

According to the World Gold Council, the US has gold reserves of 8,133 tons. At a market value of $1,700 per ounce (or $59,840 per kilo), this would equate to a value of $442.4 billion. Does this mean that the US economy should shrink from its current level of $15 trillion down to $442.4 billion? Or should we inflate the value of gold to match the $15t economy?

South Korea has gold reserves of only 39 tons. This equates to a market value of $2.1 billion. Should South Korea's economy contract from $1.1 trillion down to $2.1 billion?

Brazil has gold reserves of only 34 tons. This equates to a market value of $1.8 billion. Should Brazil's economy contract from $2.5 trillion down to $1.8 billion?

I found an article that addresses the US valuation problem by recommending to only back the US M1 currency with the current market value of what the US currently has in gold (ie. the $442.4 billion dollar number mentioned above). Since the US M1 currency is currently valued at about $2.2 trillion, the US would have a gold reserve that was equal to 20% of its money supply.

Once this gold standard was in place, I'm not sure how the US economy would expand from year-to-year (a concern mentioned by Dapper). The US currently only mines approx. 242,000 kilos of gold each year (which has a current market value of $14.4 billion dollars). This would put a severe limit on US growth (approximately 0.1% per year). In addition, I don't think that any of this new gold is being produced by the US Government, so I'm unsure how the US money supply could expand at all. Would the US Government have to buy gold? How would these gold purchases help anyone other than the gold mining companies?

Wouldn't going back onto the gold standard reward any country that could produce gold, and dis-advantage any country that didn't have gold as a natural resource? In order, the top seven gold producing countries are (I think this data is from 2008):

China (361k kilos)
South Africa (272k kilos)
Australia (247k kilos)
United States (242k kilos)
Peru (203k kilos)
Russia (159k kilos)
Canada (104k kilos)

Long-term worries:
------------------
What happens if the US finds that there is no more gold in the US to mine? Does the US economy stop growing? Do we buy gold from other countries? How would this help the US economy?

What happens if some other country (say Iran or Canada) finds and develops a new gold mine in their country that can suddenly produce 10,000 tons of gold a year? (equivalent to $544 billion dollars)(current world production is approx. 2,700 tons a year) Wouldn't this country be able to purchase every US asset within 20-30 years? Or would this excess supply of gold devalue the rest of the world's gold and every nation's economy would contract 10% a year for every year for the forseeable future?

What would happen to the US economy if in the future we found a new element (called Faminium) that could replace gold in most of its industrial uses? So the only intrinsic value that gold would have would be for jewelry, and maybe even this "jewelry" value would decline due to this new element?

Wouldn't this severly devalue the World's money supply and every economy in the world would contract horribly (except Iran and Canada)?

Respectfully,
GTsail
 
Can someone explain to me how a computer that can answer trivia questions on Jeopardy is worth anything outside of trivia night at the bar?

If we compare Watson's straight usability as it it is vs the usability of gold, as it is, I'd take the gold. As just bricks it has more non-monetary value to me. Watson won't even play video games.

Medical diagnoses. Not sure how you can tie it into finance and economics though.
 
Omnis
Medical diagnoses. Not sure how you can tie it into finance and economics though.

Does Watson make medical diagnoses without being told the symptoms? Basically, is it more than a fancy encyclopedia?
 
Can someone explain to me how a computer that can answer trivia questions on Jeopardy is worth anything outside of trivia night at the bar?
Hold the home button on an iPhone 4s... Or if you have google chrome, there is a little microphone next to the search button... Those are just two examples within the reach of my thumbs.
If we compare Watson's straight usability as it it is vs the usability of gold, as it is, I'd take the gold. As just bricks it has more non-monetary value to me. Watson won't even play video games.
Saying gold is more valuable than an invention like watson because of it's petty uses is like a scalpel is more important than a surgeon. The human variable is what is valuable.

Does Watson know a diagnosis without being told symptoms? Well, it needs some input, meaning it is not YET telepathic (that wont be long). But lets say it has access to a patient's electronic medical record, and assuming the physicians have reported the pertinent details, it could make a diagnosis. If a blood glucose meter was wired to Watson so it could read the results, no human intervention would be needed to come up with proper insulin coverage.

Just so that hits home: In hospitals a nurse or PCT must take blood glucose levels so insulin coverage can be tabulated. Insulin pens are so brilliantly designed now that a patient can easily administer insulin themselves, and we'll just mention insulin pumps. So, with Watson and insulin pens, that is two less task to be done, and now that floor may require one less Patient Care Tech... Lowering health care cost.
 
Last edited:
I can't own a surgeon. And he can't do his job without a scalpel.

And things such as Siri require repurposing Watson's programming. Kind of like smelting gold repurposes its use. But I guess Siri is minutia.
 
If you're stranded on an island just filled with dollars you're about as screwed as on an island filled with gold. How is Watson going to help?
 
I'll be on the island with the people who made Watson, and living on the exponential technology curve. The gold diggers island will be utterly stagnant, duly not progressing.

Really, you guys are coming off pathetic now.

Gold does nothing, never has, never will (it's not evolving).
 
All I suggest is that we try weighing value by the same measure. Gold has great value when re-purposed. Watson's technology has great value when re-purposed.

Comparing gold by itself to Watson's technological potential is like comparing iron ore to a car.

Your comparison was unbalanced to begin with. If asking you to attempt equality in your logic is pathetic then it is because I once again made the mistake of attempting to engage you in reasonable conversation.
 
I'm not literally comparing Watson to gold. :dunce:

For at least the 20th time, backed up by an expert whose vid I posted twice (which OBVIOUSLY didn't get watched), the US dollar is back by the US government which represents the PEOPLE of the US who happen to innovate constantly and break technological barriers such as understanding language.

Gold does nothing.

The only objective measure of value is capability. Gold vs people is the argument. Gold has no capability. Humans have a lot of ability... Even the ability to make gold useful. That is valuable.
 
Last edited:
Why are we arguing with a man who sees no value in gold? Since he has effectively ceded his holdings of gold, shouldn't we simply gather it up and leave him with nothing as he wishes?
 
Money backed by people?

These people?

111004103034-rushkoff-occupy-wall-street-story-top.jpg


Or these people?

saupload_09_03_24c_geithner_bernanke.jpg
 
The plan is to manipulate and then eliminate one's ability to accumulate wealth, then, hopefully lowering wages to the point currency is only needed for international trade. Of course this currency is backed only by the citizens abilities as the gov would control all resources.

I'm quite sure I sound insane, but I'm not speaking of overnight drastic change. This is one part of a parties dreams.
 
Does Watson make medical diagnoses without being told the symptoms? Basically, is it more than a fancy encyclopedia?

Well, no, that's the point. It's like a giant information logic system. Give it all the information you have and it outputs the most likely inference. In an ideal world you could have a hospital wing of just nurses and techs being directed by a Watson.
 
Watson is world changing innovation that will drastically affect the healthcare industry, therefore the economy, which will cause an undeniably positive affect on everyone in the world.
 
And since that article was written how many millions have been lost in government invested companies that went bankrupt?

Government is very fallible. Trust me, I work for the government.
Right. But billions have been made. Actually, there no monetary value on what good the US govt has done through research and development. Because you don't get it has no bearing on reality.
 

Latest Posts

Back