Should VGT go die?

[Furinkazen]

Actually, I like concepts, and I'm not against vgt's. However the vgt focus indicates to me that Kaz has forgotten gt is a game and as such the series has lost its way. I never dreamed of racing laser powered cars in a game that dont exist, I dreamt of racing cars that are beyond my means or that I simply like for one reason or another. As for all cars starting as a concept, they are concepts with a real world purpose for the end user. These vgt cars have little purpose to this end user or the end user in the car segment. I believe only die hard gt fans have or will have any affinity to these cars. Just another reason why gt is losing part of its custom base imo. What PD and Kaz do is no longer my problem as I have broken my emotional involvement with this franchise.

Okay. So I take it you forgot the franchise soon as GT4 came out and the Nike concept was included?

 

[Robin]

I have to say I don't like the VGT cars, they are not real physical concept cars that were shown at motor shows THEN put in a game. Sure some VGT cars have gone the other way and ended up real concepts but cars dreamt up for videogames don't really float my boat and the worst bit is it seems PD only wants to put VGT concepts in their games from now on. Another thing I don't like is that most of them are totally overdone bordering on fantasy, they are not concepts which feasibly could become commercial models (like most autoshow concepts). Give me Gran Turismo Concept 2001-2002 any day!

As for the poll in this thread....

 

[JakeMR2]

If I remember correctly the term "VGT" was different, the fact that they would only do cars is beyond me. I always thought the VGT Project would be like the 2006 Gran Turismo HD to coming to the next level in the PS3 generation. Some posts do exists about the old VGT meaning, but I have to dig it up somewhere.

Here is the trailer.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think the fact these are concept cars that we can interact with put them a cut above many autoshow only concepts. It really is the way of the future for concepts as far as I'm concerned.

@Robin touches on an interesting point though. GT Concept titles of the past could be revisited with these VGTs, perhaps a stand-alone title like the 3 PD released before could be a thing.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Okay. So I take it you forgot the franchise soon as GT4 came out and the Nike concept was included?

No, why would I have? that Nike car did not take over the whole franchise. by the time GTS comex out the PS4 will be 3 years old, GTS will have 137 cars, a number we could have expected at the launch of the PS4. Quite a few of this number will be VGT cars anc duplicates of them. As I said, vgt is an indication to me that Kaz has forgot this is a game, but vgt itself actually has zero to do with me letting go of this franchise. GT5 was what put me in the coffin, GT6 and its lack of focus (except focus on vgt of course), its lies, its 2 year delivery of the soon after release course creator is what put the final nail in. I believe gt6 wont even get all its intended vgt cars? As I said, focus has gone in the wrong direction and vgt is looking like its to tje franchises detriment.

 

[Tornado]

Cars like the Turbo,

Vision EfficientDynamics

the Z07,

Every once in a while you get a wild concept that captures the attention of the public so much that the manufacturer does everything they can to get it to production. The Prowler, TT, Solstice, what have you. But that's far from the norm.

The Z8 was in fact an example I had put but removed in favor of the Solstice since I felt it was a better known example.

- and lets not forget, the BMW VGT pretty much previewed the 2 series coupe.

That doesn't look terribly much like the 2 series coupe or the BMW VGT car at all. I mean, there's perhaps subjectivity to the whole thing, but I distinctly remember quite a bit of disappointment that the actual final VGT (which bowed several months after BMW showed off the 2 series at Detroit) was so dramatically different from the initial sketches; and wasn't some BMW i8 race car or M1 Hommage race car like a lot of people initially thought. Personally, I wasn't interested in the sketch version much so the actual final VGT was my favorite of the whole program.



Plus, that's also quite a bit different from zzz's point of VGT cars showing off potential futures of their respective brands, since the 2 series' exact styling was known long before that sketch made the rounds.

Sure not all concept cars turn into production models, but just because Olds sold crapboxes whilst showing off exotic concepts doesn't mean no concept car ever contributed to the design and direction of any production model.

That was why GM's 1980s concept car output was an example of my point regarding how concept cars might not hold any relevance whatsoever to what the brand is actually going to produce; in response to someone implying that a car manufacturer simply making a concept has to be (in some way) a representation of the future of the company. Because GM spent the 1980s making a lot of concepts that held no relevance whatsoever to what the brand was actually going to produce. That's pretty far removed from claiming "no concept car ever contributed to the design and direction of any production model". If I was to bring up an example of how a concept car could act as such, I would have mentioned something like...

Some of them had styling that was sorta a precursor to what GM would produce in the next decade (like the Trans Sport or Banshee IV)

Or:

And the GT90 wasn't the best example to use, then; since Ford were upfront that it was representing the future design direction of the brand and a car that clearly used it went into production the following year.

 

[FT-1]

I don't mind Vision Gran Turismo concept cars as long as they are something I can imagine racing alongside existing race cars without sticking out like a sore thumb, and I'm sure the livery editor will help some of them blend in even more. These are the sort of cars I liked from Vision Gran Turismo:

• Both VWs
• BMW VGT
• Mini Clubman VGT
• Lexus LF-LC VGT
• Toyota FT-1 VGT
• Bugatti VGT
• Mazda LM55
• Subaru VIZIV VGT

The rest seem to be a bit too extravagant and/or don't fit into the car classes very well in GT Sport imo. I voted "Narp" in the hope we see more realistic concept cars in the future.

 

[unit-one]

Narp. Well then, if AC smells better then why not eat that instead. =)

For me VGT is an interesting thing. I love concept cars. (non silly ones)

 

[TokoTurismo]

If GTS is trying to be a simulator of racing than I agree, but not killing VGT off. Instead, VGT should've been saved for GT7 rather GTS because some VGT cars, IMO, look pretty stupid with the real cars. At this point PD are just shoving it in their fans' faces and one can not deny that since they're being put in same classes with said real cars with fictional models.

 

[PzR Slim]

Every time a VGT cars beats a real world car in a race it's a little kick in the nuts to everyone who played a part in developing and making the real life cars that it beats. Thousands of man hours of design, manufacture, testing and real world Motorsport history beaten by some made up numbers. Just doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather they weren't included at all but if they are I'd prefer if they could only race against other VGT cars. I'd hate to think that the first ever FIA sanctioned GT World Championship race could be won by a VGT car.

Now that might be an idealistic way to look at it but it's how I personally feel about it.

 

[mister dog]

VGT should exist as a bonus feature, but please, let us have pure FIA GT experience and not a terrible mess of fictional cars and real cars. A race should have cars only from one single class. Unless we're talking about a multi-class race.

This. Typical PD design decision to not put them in a separate mode competing with each other, but mix them in grids among real life cars.

But then again, GT grids never made much sense before so i guess it's a continuing trend.

 

[TurismoBad]

That's the one thing I can agree upon. So far the already small car list looks like underwhelming with VGTs and various fake race mods of regular cars.

I expected a variety of REAL race cars - new and old and and some road cars in various classes. VGTs and fake mods could be used as an extra not the main attraction.

What I had in mind was something like

10 GT3 cars

10 GT500 cars

10 LMP1 cars

10 Group C cars

10 WRC cars

etc

We'll yet to see the rest but so far I get the feeling it won't be the case. Race mod here, race mod there, add 15 VGTs boom 137 cars.

So yeah considering PD modeling output is getting out of hand I would get rid of VGTs entirely. Companies are making concept cars all the time anyway - no lack of those.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The Z8 was in fact an example I had put but removed in favor of the Solstice since I felt it was a better known example.

That doesn't look terribly much like the 2 series coupe or the BMW VGT car at all. I mean, there's perhaps subjectivity to the whole thing, but I distinctly remember quite a bit of disappointment that the actual final VGT (which bowed several months after BMW showed off the 2 series at Detroit) was so dramatically different from the initial sketches; and wasn't some BMW i8 race car or M1 Hommage race car like a lot of people initially thought. Personally, I wasn't interested in the sketch version much so the actual final VGT was my favorite of the whole program.



Plus, that's also quite a bit different from zzz's point of VGT cars showing off potential futures of their respective brands, since the 2 series' exact styling was known long before that sketch made the rounds.


That was why GM's 1980s concept car output was an example of my point regarding how concept cars might not hold any relevance whatsoever to what the brand is actually going to produce; in response to someone implying that a car manufacturer simply making a concept has to be (in some way) a representation of the future of the company. Because GM spent the 1980s making a lot of concepts that held no relevance whatsoever to what the brand was actually going to produce. That's pretty far removed from claiming "no concept car ever contributed to the design and direction of any production model". If I was to bring up an example of how a concept car could act as such, I would have mentioned something like...

Or:

So we're both on the same page. Manufacturers do use concepts to preview future thinking and/or design direction. For some reason I thought you disagreed. Since ZZZ said "plenty of cars" rather than "has to be (in some way)", I can't figure out if you were agreeing, or disagreeing with him though.

As for the 2-er, perhaps I should have been more forceful with my suggestions prior to the games launch. I don't understand why you would think a spy shot was relevant to the pre-launch marketing of the BMW VGT though.

 

[Flash_Noddy]

That's the one thing I can agree upon. So far the already small car list looks like underwhelming with VGTs and various fake race mods of regular cars.

I expected a variety of REAL race cars - new and old and and some road cars in various classes. VGTs and fake mods could be used as an extra not the main attraction.

What I had in mind was something like

10 GT3 cars

10 GT500 cars

10 LMP1 cars

10 Group C cars

10 WRC cars

etc

We'll yet to see the rest but so far I get the feeling it won't be the case. Race mod here, race mod there, add 15 VGTs boom 137 cars.

So yeah considering PD modeling output is getting out of hand I would get rid of VGTs entirely. Companies are making concept cars all the time anyway - no lack of those.

This is exactly what I was hoping for. It's like they're putting out two totally different messages. Here's an FIA game, and here's a load of fake cars. Eh? I suspect the VGT's make GT a fair bit of money from marketing and save money not having to acquire rights for anything else.

 

[trustjab]

Manufacturers are involved. If that makes their partnership with GT stronger, it's a plus. These aren't PD dreamt up fantasy cars. They come from teams inside (some) car companies. Chrysler/SRT, Mazda, Bugatti, Hyundai, BMW, Toyota etc. Those are huge names. I'm not a fan of every one of them, but cars like the Lexus LF LC was a concept, became a VGT race version, made it to production as a road car. If we do see more things like this happen with other cars, I think it's great. As far as car count goes, we will probably get dlc of VGT's. But hopefully real cars as well.

 

[Tornado]

Since ZZZ said "plenty of cars" rather than "has to be (in some way)"

He also said:

Even if [automakers] present concept cars who don't run, they are real in the sense that they represent, in a way, a direction/the future of these companies.

Hence an example of a company/time period/styling direction where the concepts being put out obviously did not. It isn't the only one, for sure; but it is simply the one I have the most offhand knowledge of.

I don't understand why you would think a spy shot was relevant to the pre-launch marketing of the BMW VGT though.

I never said it was. The point zzz made, and what the examples you brought up were supposedly towards, was about how concept cars can effect cars years down the line. The Z07 did a better job than most because even though they put it together knowing it might get built as an exclusive boutique car, it was still Bangle's first big splash at BMW. The BMW VGT car sketch, on the other hand, was frequently mistaken for a racing version of other BMW models (most commonly the i8 and M1 Hommage). It's hard to take a concept as a preview of something specific when that something is already known and the concept doesn't really resemble it. For sure, it's a good example of a fictional car that uses the same current BMW design language (and probably done by the same designer) as the 2 Series, but a specific preview of the 2 Series? I don't see it, and knowing what the 2 Series looked like already by that point made me see it even less than I probably would have.


The final VGT car would have been a better ace in the hole, since it is largely closer to the actual 2 Series (albeit with some notable detail changes), but that wasn't actually shown until after BMW had already unveiled the real one.

 

[McLaren]

Manufacturers are involved. If that makes their partnership with GT stronger, it's a plus. These aren't PD dreamt up fantasy cars. They come from teams inside (some) car companies. Chrysler/SRT, Mazda, Bugatti, Hyundai, BMW, Toyota etc. Those are huge names. I'm not a fan of every one of them, but cars like the Lexus LF LC was a concept, became a VGT race version, made it to production as a road car. If we do see more things like this happen with other cars, I think it's great. As far as car count goes, we will probably get dlc of VGT's. But hopefully real cars as well.

VGT had absolutely zero effect on the LC. The car was introduced as a design excercise and became a production car bc of the giant demand from the consumer base saying, "Build it!"

The car has already had racing concept art being shown by various outlets despite no confirmation from Lexus.

 

[trustjab]

VGT had absolutely zero effect on the LC. The car was introduced as a design excercise and became a production car bc of the giant demand from the consumer base saying, "Build it!"

The car has already had racing concept art being shown by various outlets despite no confirmation from Lexus.

Never said it did. I'm saying the car which was a concept before it was a vgt, made it to production. Lexus vgt team was one of the only one's to put a car in the program that actually had a future production variant. Akio Toyoda had a big say in the car coming to fruition. So hopefully more auto makers involved with vgt put out something that has an actual future and not just a dream car.

 

[McLaren]

Never said it did. I'm saying the car which was a concept before it was a vgt, made it to production. Lexus vgt team was one of the only one's to put a car in the program that actually had a future production variant. Akio Toyoda had a big say in the car coming to fruition. So hopefully more auto makers involved with vgt put out something that has an actual future and not just a dream car.

Ok, I guess misunderstood that then as if VGT had any effect on Toyota's plans for the LC & FT-1 as well.

 

[super_gt]

Since the last ~5 years where somehow a very specific group of people pretend to be owed everything for $60. Because by that reasoning the entire history of video game development has gotten away with the crime of the century (all games have been $50-60 since the late 80's). So, go play another game becomes and very acceptable response to those who have made hobby out of making scarcastic, sadistic comments endlessly on a game and developer who is actually doing amazing things as a whole.

Do not forget that some of us bought PS3 ONLY for GT which is much more than $60(+GT5,GT5 Academy Edition and GT6)

 

[Samus]

Since the last ~5 years where somehow a very specific group of people pretend to be owed everything for $60. Because by that reasoning the entire history of video game development has gotten away with the crime of the century (all games have been $50-60 since the late 80's). So, go play another game becomes and very acceptable response to those who have made hobby out of making scarcastic, sadistic comments endlessly on a game and developer who is actually doing amazing things as a whole.

Whilst other people try their hardest to make excuses for the developer by literally making stuff up.

It would be nice if people could forgive some of the flaws of the PS3 generation, GT6 was also merely a re-release to haul us over until they're ready for GT7, but people expected a new game.

It goes both ways and always has.

 

[breyzipp]

I don't like fictional cars either. I would much rather see the VGT program being ditched and be replaced with real cars. But I know it's the man on top's biggest wet dream to melt together gaming racing and real life racing as close as possible. Hence the GT Academy program for the drivers and now the VGT program for the car designers.

 

[The Chosen One]

EDIT: Delete

 

[Tornado]

"You could try these other two games in the meantime while you wait for GT Sport which is (since this is October of 2015) quite a ways away."

 

[PzR Slim]

Johnnypenso
Don't forget that you can also play Project Cars and soon Assetto Corsa on the PS4 to tide you over. They may not be on GT's level in some ways, especially in volume of content, but in other ways they far exceed anything put out by PD so far and are extremely enjoyable.
Johnnypenso
Since when is, "go play another game" an acceptable response in the GTS discussion forum?

The childish outbursts of users in this thread is nothing like the helpful suggestion of @Johnnypenso in the piece quoted. Pathetic.

Plus, that has already been levelled @Johnnypenso in this thread, if you had bothered to read it, and received the scorn it deserved, keep up.

 

[syntex123]

Do not forget that some of us bought PS3 ONLY for GT which is much more than $60(+GT5,GT5 Academy Edition and GT6)

And GT5P I bought a PS3 only for GT5P, and bought a new PS3 for GT5. Then I upgraded the HDD for GT6. (A long time before this time though). I also bought the PS4 for GT7, but a good time before we even heard about any next-gen GT. I'm likely to buy a Neo for GTS. If it releases around the same time, ofc.

 

[zzz_pt]

He also said:

Hence an example of a company/time period/styling direction where the concepts being put out obviously did not. It isn't the only one, for sure; but it is simply the one I have the most offhand knowledge of.



I never said it was. The point zzz made, and what the examples you brought up were supposedly towards, was about how concept cars can effect cars years down the line. The Z07 did a better job than most because even though they put it together knowing it might get built as an exclusive boutique car, it was still Bangle's first big splash at BMW. The BMW VGT car sketch, on the other hand, was frequently mistaken for a racing version of other BMW models (most commonly the i8 and M1 Hommage). It's hard to take a concept as a preview of something specific when that something is already known and the concept doesn't really resemble it. For sure, it's a good example of a fictional car that uses the same current BMW design language (and probably done by the same designer) as the 2 Series, but a specific preview of the 2 Series? I don't see it, and knowing what the 2 Series looked like already by that point made me see it even less than I probably would have.


The final VGT car would have been a better ace in the hole, since it is largely closer to the actual 2 Series (albeit with some notable detail changes), but that wasn't actually shown until after BMW had already unveiled the real one.

You're looking only for the looks. Concept cars serve a purpose much bigger than that. Even if the looks are not "the same" or similar, construct technology, materials, head lights, can be highly impacted by the concept cars. There are some concept cars which are fully functional and run, other are fully funcional and don't run (because they're too expensive to put them on a road), others that have a lot of funcioning systems (interior, safety, etc) but they have a random engine, etc, etc, etc.

The thing is, even companies (or F1 teams) use simulators to predict how things will work out before they invest the money doing it. That's the good thing about physics. You can predit it. Even if not in a perfect way, it works.

When was it? In 2014, Marrusia tested its car in simulators before building it and all the data they were presenting was based on that (before the official release ofc. they even joined the season a few races later cuz the chassis wasn't ready/build yet I think).

If companies who own simulators (ones better than others sure) like PD in a certain way, they can insert the info - input - like suspension, ride hight, power, drivetrain, Cx, etc and see the results - output.

Konigssegg also uses simulators a lot for example. The cars are not yet "real" and they already have data that could be used in simulators.

This whole thing is quite subjective depending on how you look at it.

 

[Tornado]

I'm only looking at looks because there isn't really any relevance to anything else when we're talking about cars made for a videogame.

 

[Samus]

You're looking only for the looks. Concept cars serve a purpose much bigger than that. Even if the looks are not "the same" or similar, construct technology, materials, head lights, can be highly impacted by the concept cars. There are some concept cars which are fully functional and run, other are fully funcional and don't run (because they're too expensive to put them on a road), others that have a lot of funcioning systems (interior, safety, etc) but they have a random engine, etc, etc, etc.

The thing is, even companies (or F1 teams) use simulators to predict how things will work out before they invest the money doing it. That's the good thing about physics. You can predit it. Even if not in a perfect way, it works.

When was it? In 2014, Marrusia tested its car in simulators before building it and all the data they were presenting was based on that (before the official release ofc. they even joined the season a few races later cuz the chassis wasn't ready/build yet I think).

If companies who own simulators (ones better than others sure) like PD in a certain way, they can insert the info - input - like suspension, ride hight, power, drivetrain, Cx, etc and see the results - output.

Konigssegg also uses simulators a lot for example. The cars are not yet "real" and they already have data that could be used in simulators.

This whole thing is quite subjective depending on how you look at it.

That is different. When manufactures simulate a car they plug in their numbers and see if the results are what the expected/planned. They don't just plug "2000hp" into the computer and see what the performance is, they put the figures from their engine design in and simulate the performance, see what the hp might be. Same with aero etc, they don't simulate their final numbers and see the performance of the car, they build a simulation of their design and see what numbers is produces, and if it matches their predictions.

What PD have done is plug in the final numbers that the manufacturers claim are possible with no actual proof they are possible, they've not been simulated. As already said in some case they can't know how some things will perform because the technology is still theoretical.

They said the laser in the Chapparal will give 900hp. Will it? Nobody knows, because the whole idea is hypothetical and hasn't been simulated. That is the performance is has in the game though, because Chevy says so.

 

[zzz_pt]

That is different. When manufactures simulate a car they plug in their numbers and see if the results are what the expected/planned. They don't just plug "2000hp" into the computer and see what the performance is, they put the figures from their engine design in and simulate the performance, see what the hp might be. Same with aero etc, they don't simulate their final numbers and see the performance of the car, they build a simulation of their design and see what numbers is produces, and if it matches their predictions.

What PD have done is plug in the final numbers that the manufacturers claim are possible with no actual proof they are possible, they've not been simulated. As already said in some case they can't know how some things will perform because the technology is still theoretical.

They said the laser in the Chapparal will give 900hp. Will it? Nobody knows, because the whole idea is hypothetical and hasn't been simulated. That is the performance is has in the game though, because Chevy says so.

Chaparral 2X and the SRT Tomahwak(the "plane like one" ^^)? I grant you those. What about all the others?


How many RedBull X are ingame since GT5?