Slightly Mad: GT5's damage isn't "quite so realistic"

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You guys should try the underdog... Supercar Challenge... :D I have the retail version and its great... it will keep me busy til GT5 comes out... and even though I am getting Shift as well... I recommend Supercar Challenge to you all.... I cannot say the same about Shift because I have not played yet :)

Sorry for the off-topic post but I saw people discussing Shift as well :) You can go back on topic now if you like ... 👍
 
Well according to a latest PS3 magazine I have bought (Play) they confirm that damage will be on all cars. I believe the 170 means interior damage.

Still this magazine also says we shall see real time weather changes!

That would be amazing!
 
2. There will be 170 "Premium" cars with damage modeling and cockpits. The rest of the cars will have no damage modeling or even cockpits.

#2 is just a ridiculous interpretation in my mind so the obvious answer is #1.

As for the number 170, it seems obvious to me it's only for the race/rally cars. Infact when KY, in the past, talked about simulating damage he flat out said they they were getting close to being able to simulate damage on race cars. He never said anything about damaging licensed cars.
obvious? Nothing is obvious, it's just in your mind.
 
But the Devs of NFS weren't talking so much about the damage of GT5. Only about that the doors could come off in GT5, in NFS that isn't possible. It was more that GT put a roll cage inside of a car which in reality hasn't got a roll cage. But in reality it actually does have a rollcage, so the NFS dev guy was wrong. Right? I'm not too upset about it because the comment is incorrect. I think it's kinda funny.

The damage in the GT5 demo wasn't so good, because the parts didn't dent and stuff like that. The parts only could be ripped loose from the car. It's clear that it isn't ready yet, and that it's going to be better. But if it stays like this, I'm not impressed. As it's not so realistic. :dopey:

But I can't judge the NFS damage yet because I haven't seen it yet and haven't found a vid about it, so could you point me to one? :)

Her's a vid that shows off the kind of Damage in SHIFT:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbqHBXH_zzc

In SHIFT you can see the cars body work bend and crush quite significantly ( not so far as doing any damage to the passenger compartment though ) as well as the hood and trunk can bend and pop open.

Honestly though I don't feel that's nearly as important as how realistically the cars are damaged mechanically and how realistically that damage affects the cars performance.

The damage in these 3 games is gonna be compared quite extensively I'm sure. Right now there's still so much we don't know but I can make a few comments based on what is known today.

Forza 3 looks to have the most realistic ( performance ) damage so far. And I say this not knowing ANY Details about how damage affects performance in SHIFT and GT 5 :dopey:

Forza 2 ( we don't know about Forza 3 yet ) tracks 21 different parts of the car and shows you which parts get damaged in a crash ( or just sloppy shifting ) and how damaged those parts are using a color code ( light yellow for slight damage, red for completely destroyed )

And you can damage the car to the point where it has a top speed of about 5km/h and it takes about 30 seconds to get up to that speed LOL ( assuming you can still shift into gear. ) You can reduce your car to this with one good hit.

SHIFT -

"Bumpers will fly off, hoods will be popped open, doors will be bashed in, and if you’ve got full damage on, your suspension will bend, your steering will pull or get sloppy, and your engine will be destroyed, barely limping around to the end of the race.”

How accurate is it? We don't know. How many areas of the car is the damage model tracking? Again we don't know.

GT 5 -

We have seen paint scrapes, bumpers get knocked off, hoods and doors flying open and eventually falling off.

But we don't really have any info as to the details of what parts the damage model tracks or how accurately it does so. The only thing I could find was this...

"After a few solid shunts our car was struggling to get over 140kph, so we'd clearly caused technical damage too. "

How many areas does the GT 5 damage model keep track of? We don't know, and there's ( atleast in the Gamescom build ) no way of knowing as there is no graphic that pops up. Maybe the final game will allow us to view detailed telemetry during the replays.
 
They updated the article:
UPDATE: Andy has since been in touch with GamerZines to clarify this story.

By stating that Polyphony Digital's method of implementing damage was 'not quite so realistic', he simply meant that adding rollcages to the car was "a good workaround but one we haven't had to do on Need For Speed: Shift", rather than stating that GT5's damage modelling was less realistic than that of Need For Speed: Shift's.
Yeaaahhhh riiiight. :lol:

A good workaround to implement doors coming off from a WRC car was adding a rollcage that is in the real version too, the sense, where is it? Can anyone find it for me please?
 
He only took back the "GT's damage isn't quite so realistic" part be he left in the "roll cage is a good work around" bit, which still doesn't make sense on that car.
 
blurb_facepalm2_20090622.jpg
 
Add this in to your arguments though... virtually ANY/ALL competitive Racing events mandate that a roll cage is fitted to the car... road based or race based... The only exceptions are Trackdays (which are not competitive events), and possible club level events - but even then, I'm sure they require a roll cage. Even time trial based events I'm sure require one. Maybe one of the real life racers out there could clarify..

My point is, on virtually anything other than a 'photo drive', a roll cage would need to be fitted - IF it is to reflect the real world...

just my 2 cents.
 
Add this in to your arguments though... virtually ANY/ALL competitive Racing events mandate that a roll cage is fitted to the car... road based or race based...

That's got me thinking, what if PD make it so that you can't enter any of the race series' without a rollcage fitted to your car. Maybe that's a work-around for road-car damage?
 
That's pretty funny.

If he was trying to make the case that SHIFT's damage is more realistic than GT 5's he could have done so ( It may infact be true ) but instead he Flopped and made himself look like an idiot LOL
 
i am stating to wonder why are certain devs taking pot shots at GT? It started with Turn 10 and now NFS devs. Are they insecure or what? Or is a call for attention?
 
Actually NFS Shift devs has already made pot shots at GT, Forza and others around E3 time, regarding their physics engine.
 
i am stating to wonder why are certain devs taking pot shots at GT? It started with Turn 10 and now NFS devs. Are they insecure or what? Or is a call for attention?
They want to generate talk. And guess what, it works, with all the fanboys responding like Pavlov's dog. ;) Still missing the torches and pitchforks though. :P :lol:
 
Which is exactly what Turn 10 has done, thats the reason for the aggressive promoting at E3. I assume they expected big GT5 news as the rest of us were so they wanted to make a big impression before the Sony Press conference.

It succeeded in getting the internet to do a lot of talking.
 
I think it's quite clear the NFS SHIFT spokesman is confusing road and racecars, if he's correct it means the door couldn't be ripped off a Subaru road car.

But he does have a point in general in that GT5 needs to offer much more than has been seen so far to fulfill expectations.

ATM, GT5 looks like GT5P with a damage patch, so hopefully PD has a very large amount still to show.
 
But he does have a point in general in that GT5 needs to offer much more than has been seen so far to fulfill expectations.

He said that? He just mentioned damage, you made up the rest.
 
well it sound like he tought it was a normal street car..
because he said he was stuned how Pd was alowed to have the door get ripped off..
and he said that they maby got around it by installing a rollcage in the car..
so its looks like that type of damge will only be in the race cars with rollcages in them
 
well it sound like he tought it was a normal street car..
because he said he was stuned how Pd was alowed to have the door get ripped off..
and he said that they maby got around it by installing a rollcage in the car..
so its looks like that type of damge will only be in the race cars with rollcages in them

Which, to be fair is a bit unrealistic, You have to deform the body shell a fair bit before the latch would give way, certainly you need a big deformation before bonnets fly open, doors flap etc.. It's fun, but certainly not 'realistic' with the almost zero deformation shown. I watch a lot of rallying and motorsport, and I've seen doors fly open, but the crash was always quite spectacular..

Lets face it, we know none of these games can go over the top, I think they should show more deformation before major items start to free themselves, which of course they can't, which makes PD's choice in the demo at least to be a little odd, but excusable.
 
Wait wait wait.....doesn't the stock Subaru WRX STI have a rollcage installed in it from the factory? I mean even the road version of the car has it so how is that in any way unrealistic? On top of that, the one shown looks to be a WRC spec model.
 
No, the standard road Impreza STI doesn't have a seperate rollcage.
 
Unless i'm mistaken, no there isn't a rollcage installed in the road version of the Scooby STI.
 
There's a reason.

People take GT as fact. The number of people who really think that the cars look, go, handle and sound like that, or that they can drive "this" on "that track" in the game they go on to replicate it in real life is... staggering. The disclaimer at the beginning of every game means nothing to them - they could hustle Jay Leno's Tank Car around Laguna Seca like a pro! (one111one!).

From a marketing standpoint this is brilliant and a knife in the heart at the same time. Manufacturers want their awesome halo cars and best-selling models to be in the game, because they appeal to the next generation of car buyers before they even buy cars. The Skyline, for instance, would be nowhere near the fapicon it is without GT. They grab the hearts and minds of the future market.

But then you get manufacturers who are kinda precious about how their cars perform. Ferrari have always been notorious for it but they've apparently relented, to be replaced by Porsche. Remember how antsy Porsche were about the GT-R's Nuerburgring time? They went out and bought a GT-R and tested it themselves to prove it couldn't do the time stated - and of course PD and the GT-R are kinda inseperable (in fact Nissan in general).

And then there's the thorny issue of damage. If these people think a car looks, sounds, handles and goes in real life like it does in the game, they'll think it crashes like it does in the game. Manufacturers get very precious about how safe their cars seem to be and will never allow the passenger cell to be compromised even if it would in real life - never mind that the average GT crash would end with any road car "ending up in pieces maybe an inch big". Ford will get annoyed if their cars seem to be easier to damage than Vauxhalls/Holdens/Chevrolets (depending on the market), Peugeot with Renault, Toyota with Honda and so on and so forth even, get this, if they are in real life.


Ultimately, "real" damage won't ever be permitted in any game. "Realistic" damage won't be permitted either - cars will all be expected to deform at the same rate, except for manufacturers who aren't bothered (rare) or insist that their cars aren't so fragile and are then either excluded from the game or included because their inclusion results in good PR (Ferrari in Forza) - and in any case, real world individual vehicle damage testing doesn't stretch to a 140mph lateral nose plant on a crash barrier.

The best we can hope for is semi-realistic damage, where damage severity is extrapolated, energy/angle dependant, not vehicle-specific and restricted to certain vehicles. It's easier with privateer race cars because the manufacturers don't even own the silhouette and you can apply whatever damage you wish.


It's pretty much GT being a victim of its own success - the more "real" it gets, the less comfortable some manufacturers are about it.

+1000:tup: TO THIS

I never thought i would hear that come out of a moderators mouth, or keyboard rather lol. Seriously people need to wake up and realise GT is still very much a game, yes the game does convey the ''charachter'' quite well in all aspects, of each individual car, but when it comes down to it, it is nothing like driving in real life.
I have yet to pass my driving test in real life, i'm still a student. I consider myself a reasonably good driver in GT5, i have a g25 and play on a hd screen and can drive all the cars easily, the F1 IS A PIECE OF CAKE. I can drift and don't use trac most of the time and have ABS set to 1.

Now when i had a go of my mums Golf GTI, i can drive it, but it is harder just going down the road, than it is going flat out in the Ford GT LM in GT5. I had lessons a while back and was almost ready to take the test, i was comfortable in driving the car. I however took a year out from driving since, and have being playing GT5 in that time. I thought my experience playing GT5 in that time would mean i would be comfortable getting right back in the seat of a real car. Boy was i wrong. I've always being very good at karting, even from a kid, just casually however, but driving a proper car in real life after taking time out, i felt very uncomfortable. Obviously i'm going to be a bit more wary because of potential hazards around me than in GT5, but regardless of that the overall immersion and feel of the car in real life is completly different. I feel like i'm going much faster in just a GTi in real life than any car in the game, not purely visually but rather how the car feels and responds. In GT5 its is easy to put your right foot through the floor and steer. Not so in real life when you are a newby driver. The steering, the size of the vehicle on the road, the gearbox, the brakes, the weight and inertia of the car and especially the clutch feel night and day different to GT5. Playing with the G25 in GT5 feels like your pressing buttons in comparison to real life. In real life it really does feel like you have to concentrate and work to get the car going smoothly. My mums car has powersteering and all the pedals feel much lighter than the G25 but with way more travel, so it feels like i have to be much more delicate and precise in real life. I'm 99% certain i could not drive half the cars i do in GT5, drive anywhere near as fast, and even contemplate attempting to drift.

Famine hit the nail on the head when he said people think they can use this game to gain real life experience for the cars real counterpart. I bet 90% or more of GT5 players couldn't even get an F1 car off the line. Don't get me wrong i do think the game probably does represent the general behavioural characteristics of the cars when pushed to the extreme, like oversteer, understeer, power on, power off, brakin behaviour from a mathematical point of view. But when it comes to actually being there in real life driving that particular car, the overall feel is night and day. Driving is much harder in real life, at least trying to drive smoothly and at moderate speeds without the engine cutting out or the clutch kicking in too hard. Driving the GTI in the game i was like WTF, my mums car aint that slow, i was litterally bored to death driving it, but in real life it gives me 10x the pleasure and sense of speed than any car in the game.
The use from a tutorial point of view irespective of having fun etc for GT5, i think is it is a good tool for learning the corners of tracks and markers, it gives a very good sense of what the car looks life in real life, the sounds are OK, similar but nowhere near as exhilerating and complex as real life, the physics and handling as i said probably would tell a driver how a car would respond if pushed in real life, like for example, if i nailed the throttle in an F40 in real ife when the turbos have spooled, the back end would become very skittish and floaty, and also on off power oversteer, these are what i consider to be ''general charachtersitics'', but the overall feel and general level of difficulty of the game compared to driving that car in real life is absolute night and day.

It's all well posting videos of some geezer taking an F1 around Suzuka as fast as Schumacher, and saying wow look how realistic it is. Pfffttt, do you really think that guy could do that in real life. Not a chance. Yes the cars can probably set a similar laptime to the real life cars, but that all comes down to a few simple mathematical parameters. The real challenge for developers from a physics and feedback perspective would be to get the cars to ''FEEL'', not just respond similar to the real counterparts. I'm pretty sure a large element for all of this is that GT5 probably has many undercover unchangeable stability, and general ease of control parameters to make driving the car in game feasible. Come on you really think you could drive a real life car with a Sixaxis.

WAKE UP PEOPLE
 
I think the thing is that we know that PD can do more, and they may well show us more at TGS.

FM2 had reasonable deformation IMO, which has to conform with their graphics engine and manfacturers.. e.g.
2zi4sjp.jpg

2gtcm09.jpg


That, coupled with GT5 graphics/boot/bonnet/doors coming off would look good enough..
 
I know of a concept Mercedes Benz from the late nineties, that used a joystick or two as driving controls.I was reading a car book from a school library.
 
Her's a vid that shows off the kind of Damage in SHIFT:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbqHBXH_zzc

In SHIFT you can see the cars body work bend and crush quite significantly ( not so far as doing any damage to the passenger compartment though ) as well as the hood and trunk can bend and pop open.

Honestly though I don't feel that's nearly as important as how realistically the cars are damaged mechanically and how realistically that damage affects the cars performance.

The damage in these 3 games is gonna be compared quite extensively I'm sure. Right now there's still so much we don't know but I can make a few comments based on what is known today.

SHIFT -

"Bumpers will fly off, hoods will be popped open, doors will be bashed in, and if you’ve got full damage on, your suspension will bend, your steering will pull or get sloppy, and your engine will be destroyed, barely limping around to the end of the race.”

How accurate is it? We don't know. How many areas of the car is the damage model tracking? Again we don't know.

Thanks for the vid!

In this video the car looks a bit cartoony. Damage looks good, but ofcourse also cartoony. Damage in itself is good though. 👍 I don't know if he turned on full damage, because it looks like the car is almost as good as in the beginning.

I like the idea that the dashboard is becoming blurred when you go fast, so you automatically focus on the road ahead, but I don't know if it's going to work out that well for me. I'm pretty excited for the game, but I won't buy it if it's at the starting price. I hope there will be a demo in the PS store, so I can test everything out a little, and see if damage affects performance so bad.
 
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