Slightly Mad: GT5's damage isn't "quite so realistic"

[Maggot666PL]

^^ Typos happen ;P

I don't know why i have to waste my time on these forums explaining each and every detail and concept of my post. It's like you pople skip through most of it and just nitpick certain details which are useless and have a different meaning on there own. What i am trying to say is not that it is not possible, but rather that it would be a lot harder to drive say a real F40 in real life with a gamepad than it is driving the car in GT5. So much harder that i don't think you could push the car to even 50% of what you can in GT5. And if you don't beleive that then i am wasting my time.

The problem is you don't follow yourself. You started arguing basing your views on driving a car in traffic, now you're switching to racing an F40. These are two different things, and even tough racing really fast would be on a bring of impossible (clearly - pointless), just driving a car is 100% passable.

Also - many of GT players use wheels, which makes this whole discussion a load of wasted keystrokes. To see my view on that - just see the "idiot" part of my previous post.

 

[Aloha62_2]

stuff...

Because you aren't Aloha62_2.

however i am, all i was doing was correcting a factual error in no way at all was i discussing the realism of any gt that either exist or have yet to be released and there was nothing *nothing* to suggest i was.

But i am a hardcore GT fanboy, you can tell by how ive racked up 160 posts in 4.5 years.

 

[Devedander]

I know this thread is referring to the slightly mad comments but I have to say I don't understand this fixation with damage unless many of you plan on crashing alot lol.

I would say it doesn't matter only if you plan never to crash into anything at all (including AI drivers not crashing into anything). Then the lack of damage would have no effect on the race. However that would be highly unlikely and in reality, something as small as slightly out of whack alignment in the first lap can cost you seconds or even maybe minutes over a race.

So what if NFS Shift damage model is better than GT5. It would be very difficult for PD to excel in all aspects of a racing game, i.e graphics, physics, number of cars/tracks, online features etc. At the end of the day its all about the overall package ...

Well I guess we see it differently... at the end of the day I think it's all about being the ultimate driving simulator with emphasis on ultimate, on driving and on simulator

This IMO is why car manafacturers have been so strict with PD because their games represent the cars the most realistically.

Anythings possible, but I highly doubt this.

 

[Zer0]

Instead of giving it a cumbersome steering wheel and 20th-century pedals, neither of which is needed when you have electronic braking and electronic power steering, why not simply fit it with a PlayStation controller? I’m not joking. We know it works and, at the very least, the car could be left or right-hand drive depending on whoever had the handset. I’ve seen the future. And it’s in your sitting room.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article552096.ece

 

[McLaren]

I am already telling you this, you are off my post too. You didn't answered why Aloha must say "blah blah" instead of deleting the post and adressing only the subject. I also said that it is a possiblity that both dan and me got his post wrong.

Aloha explained why he said, "Blah blah blah." Go read it.

If I'm right, he is to be called a fanboy, because he seemed to justify GT is so realistic that you can actually drive a car in real life like you do in GT, and with a wheel/controller. Though the latter is true, the other one isn't.

Nowhere has Aloha implied that GT is realistic. If he has, point it out right now because these are all his posts in this thread.

"actually cars have been driven with a ps2 controller."

"no iam fairly awake thanks. "

"or it wouldnt have served much purpose to quote a whole rambling and mostly irrelevant post when the point i was after was at the end.

Wake up Troll."

"however i am, all i was doing was correcting a factual error in no way at all was i discussing the realism of any gt that either exist or have yet to be released and there was nothing *nothing* to suggest i was.

But i am a hardcore GT fanboy, you can tell by how ive racked up 160 posts in 4.5 years."

If you can't, shut up about it. Aloha has done nothing wrong but correct someone whilst dan did nothing but insult him.

Why is dan a fanboy, again? And of what?

Please go take an English course. There is a difference between being a fanboy & acting like a fanboy. When you do, you'll be able to comprehend my post.

If what you understood by his post is right, then partially yes. If what I and dan presumably understood by his post is right, then totally no. In any case, dan has a reason to be pissed, since he wrote a "howknowshowlongtookhimtowrite" post, just for Aloha to replace it all with "blah blah blah".

Everyone has their own ways of replying. You don't have to quote an entire post to comment about it. As Aloha already said beforehand, he only wanted to comment on the controller, nothing more.

Because you aren't Aloha62_2.

I don't need to be to see that you're presenting a non-existent argument, accusing Aloha of something he clearly has not done.

Both you and Mclaren are goons. What you both do not seem to understand even though Codename L happens to understand me completly is that i was not getting p'd off about the controller argument.

And you're an imbecile. I can play the name-calling game, too.

The only thing Codename can "understand" is that Aloha supposedly claimed something he obviously hasn't. Thus, Code's posts regarding the matter, aren't worth reading, unless he can show me where Aloha said the things he says he has.

I was calling him a Fanboy, because he replace the main body of my text with blah blah blah. As far as i'm concerned that is ignorant, trlling and being a Fanboy period. He made no attempt to justify himself or say what was incorrect, just put blah blah blah. A typical fanboy doesn't want to accept the truth response.

He put blah blah blah because he had no interest in quoting your whole post. That's not being a fanboy. The way you replied however, makes you look like one as far as I'm concerned. And again, I've seen how you post before, so you're one of the last people on this site that I personally see, as having a right to call anyone a troll or ignorant, or a goon. You haven't been very far off.

 

[socomkiller59]

Need for Speed developers said this? They don't know the first thing about simulation.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Slightly Mad Studios does, which makes this so sad.

Btw. dont want to discuss, but McLaren is totally right with everything he wrote.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I really don't think for one second that manufacturers treat PD any differently to any other game manufacturer.

.

Very silly if they don't!

Just based on sales alone a car manufacturer would like their cars in GT5 because they know they will recieve maximum exposure. Based on popularity the GT franchise is miles ahead of the forza franchise and im sure this must be a factor.

Im sure I read once that car manufacturers offered PD free licencing in return for their cars being advertised in their games.

No wonder Top Gear have this relationship with PD than Turn 10.

 

[Bogie 19th]

This seems to have spiraled out of context IMO. To ME it sounded like the guy from SHIFT was mentioning it be would odd or unrealistic if Sony's work around for doors coming off was to have roll cages appear in their cars.

If Sony has 1000 cars, we know the majority of those cars are civilian cars. We also know that racing unmodified civilian cars do NOT have roll cages. So if you took the door off of a ZR1 in a race, there would NOT be a roll cage present in the door.

I am sure this person was speaking on behalf of the entire game. He probably isn't versed (nor is anyone else) as to which cars actually will have damage.

But we have to agree, if a roll cage showed up in my "door torn off" civilian car in the game, that would indeed be unrealistic (because there isn't one there).

 

[buickgnx88]

This thread:

 

[McLaren]

Slightly Mad Studios does, which makes this so sad.

Exactly. I'm not sure how a person (who might have; not sure) that worked on GTR/2 could claim a roll cage is unrealistic in a rally car.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Well I guess we see it differently... at the end of the day I think it's all about being the ultimate driving simulator with emphasis on ultimate, on driving and on simulator



.

True but its still a video game at the end of the day.

There are other features that IMO are much more important than damage. For instance the importance of online features prolonging the lifespan of the game, which is rarely discussed on here.

Look at games such as Forza 2, COD 4. These games were fantastic not because of the single player mode but because of what they offered online.

I find damage being the least important part of GT5. Obviously I will play offline to aqquire all the cars, licences etc but when GT5 comes alive is when I go online. However having damage online will be a nightmare unless your racing against friends. Anyone who has raced online on GT5P, FM2 will know exactly what im on about. Please tell how being taken out on the 1st bend resulting in your car being knackered be enjoyable when racing online. You will be left with 2 options, 1. park your car, 2. quit the race.

I like my racing games to be realistic which is why I have a G25, Gameracer cockpit. However I do realise this is still a racing game and there is a limit in how realistic it can be. Mark my words everyone who keeps going on about damage will be seeking online rooms with damage off within 2 weeks. Unless you plan on racing against friends you can trust.

 

[Zer0]

Just based on sales alone a car manufacturer would like their cars in GT5 because they know they will recieve maximum exposure. Based on popularity the GT franchise is miles ahead of the forza franchise and im sure this must be a factor.

In recent days, we've had manufacturers or people coming to us saying can you please include this and that car to your series but in general, yes, we do the picking.

http://www.vodcars.com/garage419/episode/419_20071211

 

[Devedander]

True but its still a video game at the end of the day.

There are other features that IMO are much more important than damage. For instance the importance of online features prolonging the lifespan of the game, which is rarely discussed on here.

Look at games such as Forza 2, COD 4. These games were fantastic not because of the single player mode but because of what they offered online.

I find damage being the least important part of GT5. Obviously I will play offline to aqquire all the cars, licences etc but when GT5 comes alive is when I go online. However having damage online will be a nightmare unless your racing against friends. Anyone who has raced online on GT5P, FM2 will know exactly what im on about. Please tell how being taken out on the 1st bend resulting in your car being knackered be enjoyable when racing online. You will be left with 2 options, 1. park your car, 2. quit the race.

I like my racing games to be realistic which is why I have a G25, Gameracer cockpit. However I do realise this is still a racing game and there is a limit in how realistic it can be. Mark my words everyone who keeps going on about damage will be seeking online rooms with damage off within 2 weeks. Unless you plan on racing against friends you can trust.

Well I guess that's how it goes though... lots of things make up a game, but attention to recreating reality goes into making a sim. Of course there are limits to contend with, but that's why I put damage up there, because right along with tire physics, collision physics and car power, damage plays a huge role in how a race plays out.

And I agree it sucks to get smashed in the first lap of a race, but somehow the games with damage have managed to hold up quite well over the years... I think largely in part to the fact that having damage doesn't mean you must always have damage so it can be switched off for the casual online race.

And I have found that while getting damaged sucks in an online race, I just plane don't want to race with people like that anyhow, because even without damage, the result is that I am still getting pushed all over the track and used as a bumper in the corners. Damage or not, the race is worthless at that point, so I contend it's the players, not the damage that makes the problem and damage or not, those players are going to ruin any race.

I have learned when playing a public room to expect crap like that happening and I try to hang back a bit, play it safe and stay out of the way of the other drivers the first few curves. Inevitably the crappy ones smash themselves all up, I can cautiously navigate my way around them, and then never have to see them again. Assuming more than 3 or 4 of us are good drivers, that leaves plenty for a good fun race, and those crappy ones likely leave as they never see us again (due to not having bumpers to rely on in corners and not being able to smash the copetition out of the way).

I have found that quite often this leads to the weak racers dropping out until the room is full of decent racers. They go on my friends list, and there you go.

Note that even without damage, this is how I play, so again, it's not the damage that is the issue, it's finding a way to get the right players. I think it's far better to put a little work into getting the right players, than handicap the sim and end up racing a lot of crap races against people who have no reason to learn to race well as damage doesn't punish them.

 

[dancardesigner]

Aloha explained why he said, "Blah blah blah." Go read it.


Nowhere has Aloha implied that GT is realistic. If he has, point it out right now because these are all his posts in this thread.

If you can't, shut up about it. Aloha has done nothing wrong but correct someone whilst dan did nothing but insult him.


Please go take an English course. There is a difference between being a fanboy & acting like a fanboy. When you do, you'll be able to comprehend my post.


Everyone has their own ways of replying. You don't have to quote an entire post to comment about it. As Aloha already said beforehand, he only wanted to comment on the controller, nothing more.


I don't need to be to see that you're presenting a non-existent argument, accusing Aloha of something he clearly has not done.

And you're an imbecile. I can play the name-calling game, too.

The only thing Codename can "understand" is that Aloha supposedly claimed something he obviously hasn't. Thus, Code's posts regarding the matter, aren't worth reading, unless he can show me where Aloha said the things he says he has.

He put blah blah blah because he had no interest in quoting your whole post. That's not being a fanboy. The way you replied however, makes you look like one as far as I'm concerned. And again, I've seen how you post before, so you're one of the last people on this site that I personally see, as having a right to call anyone a troll or ignorant, or a goon. You haven't been very far off.

If you don't see ''blah blah blah'' and ''rambling'' as being insultive and ignorant then there is something wrong with you. He could simply have quoted the bit he needed to or put snip, but no, he had to have a fanboyish dig by putting blah blah blah.
I know you and Codname L don't get along so obviosly if he backs me up on anything you are going to try and discredit him.

The controller issue was the least important bit in my post anyway, becauuse as i was saying i use a G25 and driving cars in GT5 is way way easier even driving them fast around a track then just hoping into my moms GTI after taking a year out since my lessons. I have the advantage in a way that i don't have much experience on the road so it is much easier for me to know how much different in terms of difficulty real and game is. Playing GT5 for that year you would assume, if it is as realistic as it claims to be, that i would feel right at home hopping back into a real car, however as stated this was not the case.

The point i brought up about the sixaxis if you had read my ''whole'' post and caught the general jist of what i was saying, was that you could not drive a real car with a gamepad anything like you can drive the virtual car with the gamepad. Yes you might get the car to move but that's about it. But because Aloha decided to quote one bit as many nitpickers do, things got lost in translation. However if you fully read my post and understood it you would have realised this and not made the same mistake he did.

Now on to the bit about insulting. I find blah blah blah to be insultive as for the reasons i already stated, I find being told i'm rambling, when i have made a very long and justified post insultive and also he called me a troll, even though he was the one trolling my post.

Now obviously since past discussions with you, you seem to have an answer for everything, so let's hear what next load of bull you've got to say.

 

[McLaren]

If you don't see ''blah blah blah'' and ''rambling'' as being insultive and ignorant then there is something wrong with you. He could simply have quoted the bit he needed to or put snip, but no, he had to have a fanboyish dig by putting blah blah blah.

There is nothing fanboy about saying, "Blah blah blah". It's rude, but it's not fanboy-ish.

I know you and Codname L don't get along so obviosly if he backs me up on anything you are going to try and discredit him.

A nice attempt to dis-credit my post against Codename, but not successful.

If you can reeeead, look at what he's arguing for. He's arguing about Aloha making claims about GT, while you're arguing about Aloha saying, "blah blah blah".

You're both on 2 completely separate issues. He's not backing you up, he's going off into his own little corner.

Now on to the bit about insulting. I find blah blah blah to be insultive as for the reasons i already stated, I find being told i'm rambling, when i have made a very long and justified post insultive and also he called me a troll, even though he was the one trolling my post.

After you called him a fanboy. Of course, you just insulted right back again.

See, you're missing a point here.

Come on you really think you could drive a real life car with a Sixaxis.

You are essentially saying that you can not drive a real life car with a controller. You can, and Aloha said the same as well. He didn't insult you, he didn't call you names, he just simply stated that yes, you can drive a real life car with a controller; it's been done.

Your big problem is that you don't seem to grasp that you don't have to drive fast to drive a car. Driving a car at 5Mph with a controller is still driving a car. Clarkson drove a Vauxhall with gardening tools. Not very fast, but he was still technically driving.

You didn't understand this, and just said driving fast. There was no need to say, "Wake up fanboy". And worse again, he didn't even respond with an insult. He responded calmly, and again, you labeled him as a fanboy.

You had every right to be called at least something, in my opinion, after that 2nd insult. Of course, once he called you a troll, you insulted him a 3rd time.

Now obviously since past discussions with you, you seem to have an answer for everything, so let's hear what next load of bull you've got to say.

Read above, then.

 

[buickgnx88]

 

[dancardesigner]

Ahem Mclaren

Aloha62_2 seemingly tried to justify that GT is actually realistic, and one could drive a car with Sinaxis, or PS2 controller. Though it is possible in real life, as you are saying McLaren, dan basically said that, if you try to drive in real life a real car with a controller like you do in GT (speed, etc.), you will get killed. It isn't exactly a discovery, but it's truth. Aloha's mistake was that he made dan look like an idiot by quoting his post as "blah blah blah" and etc. He could have simply deleted most of the post, as he did, without adding the "blah blah blah" at the end, which actually made him write more than the essential. That's why dan's is rightfully pissed.
I wouldn't call dan a fanboy, but I wouldn't also call Aloha62_2 one. I wouldn't call dan a fanboy because if he is, what is he a fanboy of? And Aloha62_2 just said something that could be interpreted as the above, a simply reference to real life (in which only the bold part in my post above would stand), or an entire different thing, I would rather have Aloha62_2 to say what, to prevent further confusions.

Anyone can get a car to move and steer Mclaren. Does that mean they can drive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving

 

[McLaren]

Ahem Mclaren

But, that's not what he's no longer arguing about.

Anyone can get a car to move and steer Mclaren. Does that mean they can drive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving

Yes, it does. Read your link.

Driving is the controlled operation of a land vehicle, such as a car, truck or bus.

If you can get a car to move & steer, you are controlling the operations of the car.

 

[Terronium-12]

Care to get back on topic before the thread is locked?

 

[Tenacious D]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/03/videos-need-for-speed-shift-track-guides-for-road-america-will/

Looks pretty nice IMO.

I suppose I should have been clearer in saying that they should release some vids that make the racing look realistic. Unfortunately, none of the Shift videos look like anything from Prologue or GTR. If anything, they look like GRIP or any NFS game so far.

So unless you can provide some proof that manufacturers around the world consider GT to be "too good for damage" but don't care about THEIR cars being Damaged in virtually every other Racing game under the sun, I just can't accept your argument.

You're going to have to refresh my memory on how many racing games license cars from

• Virtually every car manufacturer on the planet
• Classic cars, modern cars, sports cars, hybrids, trucks, SUVs, tuners and pro race cars
• Have a car list over a couple hundred

I think the truth is that Polyphony simply ...

1. Didn't want to do damage modeling.

2. Didn't know how to do damage modeling

I think the truth is you're making things up based on your opinions rather than any facts.

I've seen a lot of people who think SHIFT is gonna be some arcade racer because of previous NFS games.

While that is true, I base my judgement on the videos they've released so far, which make it look on par with GRID. And what was that game like? Wonderful collision physics, nifty damage modeling, and arcade car handling.

I bet 90% or more of GT5 players couldn't even get an F1 car off the line. Don't get me wrong i do think the game probably does represent the general behavioural characteristics of the cars when pushed to the extreme, like oversteer, understeer, power on, power off, brakin behaviour from a mathematical point of view. But when it comes to actually being there in real life driving that particular car, the overall feel is night and day.

Honestly, I think that's about the most useless statement anyone has said.

"I bet 90% or more of GT5 players couldn't even get an F1 car off the line." - I think this applies to any racing game about equally.

"But when it comes to actually being there in real life driving that particular car, the overall feel is night and day." - Likewise.

I've been arguing this point off and on for years now, but from another angle, for those who insist that all Gran Turismo cars "feel" the same. Well, what makes one car feel different from another? Each car is a unique physical identity. The seats are different, the wheels are different, unless you're replacing them with Sparco and other racing kit, but even then, get into a WRX Rally car and a Mustang race car, and the feel will be different before you even start the thing up and race it around. And when you do? It's even more different. And what do racing games do?

Strip all that visceral experience away. And that visceral experience, the touch of the clutch, brake and gas pedals, are essential to launching or failing to launch a car. Sure, in Gran Turismo, you mash the gas and you go. Just like GTR, rFactor and Live For Speed. Duh.

 

[dancardesigner]

Honestly, I think that's about the most useless statement anyone has said.

"I bet 90% or more of GT5 players couldn't even get an F1 car off the line." - I think this applies to any racing game about equally.

"But when it comes to actually being there in real life driving that particular car, the overall feel is night and day." - Likewise.

I've been arguing this point off and on for years now, but from another angle, for those who insist that all Gran Turismo cars "feel" the same. Well, what makes one car feel different from another? Each car is a unique physical identity. The seats are different, the wheels are different, unless you're replacing them with Sparco and other racing kit, but even then, get into a WRX Rally car and a Mustang race car, and the feel will be different before you even start the thing up and race it around. And when you do? It's even more different. And what do racing games do?

Strip all that visceral experience away. And that visceral experience, the touch of the clutch, brake and gas pedals, are essential to launching or failing to launch a car. Sure, in Gran Turismo, you mash the gas and you go. Just like GTR, rFactor and Live For Speed. Duh.

Well erm, if you are agreeing with me that it is true, then how is it the most useless statement. Where did i mention other games? I didn't, you did. As you said all games are the same, and that was my point. Granturismo is a game, it's nothing like driving the real counterpart, and i'm not just talking about the obvious things you mention like the interior being different, and the actual physical controls. I am talking about the overall feedback and difficulty in driving the car. As i said, as a new yet to pass driver, getting into just a GTI and taking it down the road feels quite a bit more difficult than blitzing the F2007 around suzuka or drifting the GT LM around eiger. I could drive the F2007 laying on the couch with a sixaxis just chillin out at pretty high speeds. I bet i couldn't even get the real thing off the line comfortably. This is something that has nothing to with the ergonomics as you seem to be hooked up on. It's to do with the physics and force feedback implementation, let alone the countless number of hidden driving aids that can not be changed within the software, so that anyone can pick up the game and play to some degree.
The reason i mention it is because a lot of GT fanboys, think GT is so close to real life and they think just because some geezer got a similar laptime to Schumacher at Suzuka it must be realistic, they post videos comparing the two, and try and shove it in the face of other games as proof as to why GT is oh so supperior. It makes me laugh, do people really think that this guy would be as quick as schumacher around a track. The thing is, you could get an arcade game with the simplest of physics and no FFB and just adjust the balance of the speed and grip parameters to make the car get the same time as the real counterpart, does that make it feel and behave realistically? The fact most people can get the F2007 around Suzuka in the low 1:30s i think goes to show just how easy the game is. It's not realistically difficult at all.That is why i made that statement and yet again, as with some others here, if you entirely read ''and'' understood my post you would have realised this. Of course other games are the same, i never said they wernt, but i will say one thing, although no game to me feels close to the real thing, or is as difficult as the real thing, Rfactor has twice as good physics and FFB as GT, especially the F1 cars.

 

[ralph89]

When is the arguing going to end :loll:. This thread sucks.

 

[Tenacious D]

The reason i mention it is because a lot of GT fanboys, think GT is so close to real life and they think just because some geezer got a similar laptime to Schumacher at Suzuka it must be realistic, they post videos comparing the two, and try and shove it in the face of other games as proof as to why GT is oh so supperior. It makes me laugh, do people really think that this guy would be as quick as schumacher around a track. The thing is, you could get an arcade game with the simplest of physics and no FFB and just adjust the balance of the speed and grip parameters to make the car get the same time as the real counterpart, does that make it feel and behave realistically?

Well, those are interesting remarks. I do believe that a number of developers would take issue with this, and be entirely right. Otherwise, any old car/tire physics would work for any old game. In fact, you could just use Need For Speed code since it's probably not too taxing on any CPU, and pile on all kinds of goodies. And weren't you going on and on about how awesome rFactor was in other posts?

The fact that we do quibble over these games is precisely because there are fairly substantial differences within certain narrow areas, sometimes nuances, sometimes more. We find something in one or two games which hit us in our pleasure centers and give us a tangible sense of being behind the wheel of a vehicle roaring around a track.

I will have to say about rFactor that it's such a stupidly designed game that I've hardly touched it. What other game buries the Automatic/Manual transmission toggle off in menu limbo?! AARGH! While I did toot around the track for a bit, the user hostile interface turned me off, and the physics of the non-F1 car I was racing reminded me of the dodgy character of Enthusia. I didn't feel like I was controlling a car all that much, and in fact, I got the sense of controlling a toy scooting along the surface of a little plastic diorama which moved and rotated around the car. I'll have to give it another shot this fall when I get a ton of free time - unless GT5 comes out, then forget anything else.

And at the risk of sounding like a fanboy to you - which, who cares, card carrying and all that - Prologue felt quite a lot, and I mean a lot like the sims GTR Evo and Live for Speed. Which LFS really gets the closest to what I suspect a real car to be like, even though all but a couple are completely fake, and the tire coding is still a little strange in aspects. But Prologue... man, this is more like it; simulation physics with graphics to die for.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Please get back to the thread topic please 👍.

 

[Kinetic]

Funny how dan who doesn't have a driving lisence, and drove just 1 car, now has the ability to inform us thast GT isnt realistic to real driving 👍

 

[Scaff]

This thread ends now - a good number of you (and you should know exactly who you are) need to take a long hard look at how you post.

Quite honestly more than enough posts in here are close warning and/or infraction worthy, and a number of you simply can't manage another infraction without a ban.

Consider this a polite warning (as I'm in a good mood for some reason), but keep in mind it will not happen again.


Scaff