So, about that course creator.

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I had a few tracks that had different variations to them, like a short+long course, or east/west/full versions by changing just one or two sectors of a track and keeping the rest the same. It may have been a basic track maker, but you could genuinely make some awesome tracks, you just had to cycle the randomizer a few times when you started to get a good area of terrain to start building on.
Yeah, it was nice but it took some patience with the "randomizer" with the right inputs to make greatness. When you factor in a couple tweaks, testing it out, making a few more tweaks, testing that, etc, etc. Sometimes it took forever to make a single circuit.
 
However, in no way, shape, or form, does a massive key feature spoken of as "just going to miss the launch day" fall under the definition of "soon" when it goes 18 months and still isn't here. That may be legal, but absolutely not ethical. It's B.S., honestly.
It's only unethical or BS if you assume that it's something within their control but which they have decided to hold off on or have overreached. If it's something beyond their control - such as the massive delays to VGT due to the car manufacturers (which oddly, no-one is complaining about - despite being an actual missed deadline) - it's neither unethical nor BS for them to have not met even a firm deadline, much less a non-existent one.

We're 92% of the way through the "future update" features list and I don't anticipate it being too much longer before that last item is ticked. It is not satisfactory that it hasn't happened yet, but I would suggest that it might be best to hold off on judgements of ethics, competence and truthfulness for now.
 
Just hit a thought.
Could PD release course maker in the next update before E3 then announce GT7 at E3?
 
It's weird how people have become convinced that GT7 will be announced at E3, nobody has actually confirmed?

All I want is a few months fun on CM before everybody boxes up their PS3's and moves on to next-gen.

They expect GT7 because PoDi is the only big first party, not unveiled their game on PS4.

Personally, as I say, I don't expect to see GT7 at E3. I focus on new updates for GT6. Moreover, we should have some news this week for 1.19 :)
 
I want the course editor but thats not even my main problem, im annoyed that they said there would be a course editor and a community feature and the vgt concepts but they barely communicate with their fanbase about any of it, id rather be told i have to pay for course editor or told that they scrapping the idea for gt6 and focusing on gt7. But the fact that the only thing we have told is "its coming" just irritates me. It reminds me of when i used to have to clean my room, i would always be starting "soon"
 
I want the course editor but thats not even my main problem, im annoyed that they said there would be a course editor and a community feature and the vgt concepts but they barely communicate with their fanbase about any of it, id rather be told i have to pay for course editor or told that they scrapping the idea for gt6 and focusing on gt7. But the fact that the only thing we have told is "its coming" just irritates me. It reminds me of when i used to have to clean my room, i would always be starting "soon"
This is my biggest problem with big developers, the lack of communication.

Years ago on the official fight night forums there was lots of bitching going on about the lack of dirty boxing/punching in the clinch and how it's pathetic it was that it wasn't in the game yet.

A programmer came on and snapped at us, explaining that it was in the game but it caused havoc on the physics system and had huge balance issues. As it drew closer to the deadline that had to make choices on what had to be and could be done to the game to get it out on time. Clinch boxing didn't make it.

So we stopped bugging them about it because we know why it wasn't it and why they wouldn't be able to get it in. Simple right?

I wouldn't be so pissed if they gave us a simple one sentence answer on why a feature that was supposed to be released "about a month" after release is over a year and a half late.
 
All I want is a few months fun on CM before everybody boxes up their PS3's and moves on to next-gen.

This was my mindset about 6 months ago. Now it's a case of too little too late. My ps3 died, but if I really wanted to I could get a used one cheap as chips atm, due to second hand shops being over-flowing with them. The thing is though, even if I did, I would only be doing so to be able to play my Metal Gear Solid Legacy Collection. Even if PD released the course maker tomorrow, I wouldn't bother playing GT6 again.
 
PD's biggest problem in one short sentence

I agree with you all on the lack of com....

... but you seem to forget PD isnt operating in a vacuum ( altho they msy seem to be)

Their work is highly visible and followed.

Imagine FM releasing the feature before PD...
Whatever PD is strggling on, they cant just come out and say it to the world...

This is not some microsoft feature. This CM has a lot more implications tied to....
I wouldnt be surprised if there was some patents being written for it...

This CM could actually make PD work beyond the realms of video games...

So your puty little request will have to wait...
 
Just a little food for thought, considering that we have heard nothing about GT7 (no rumors from journalists, no screens, no screens, etc) with it so close to E3, I would be massively surprised if it is announced. Even if it is shown, I played prologue at E3 is 2005 and it didn't get released until 2008. The chances of it being released anytime soon are extremely slim.

That means that GT6 is still going to be GT7 Beta for a while.

As for future features, the delays can also be chalked up to the timelines for GT7. It's common for the content assigned to a live team to be adjusted relative to the main product. That may have happened with course maker.

Who knows what changes may some for GT6 in the future. It won't be ignored, that's for sure. It's THE most important piece of software for Sony.
 
I agree with you all on the lack of com....

... but you seem to forget PD isnt operating in a vacuum ( altho they msy seem to be)

Their work is highly visible and followed.

Imagine FM releasing the feature before PD...
Whatever PD is strggling on, they cant just come out and say it to the world...

This is not some microsoft feature. This CM has a lot more implications tied to....
I wouldnt be surprised if there was some patents being written for it...

This CM could actually make PD work beyond the realms of video games...

So your puty little request will have to wait...
Ive been waiting a long time so im almost not even waiting anymore, itll just pop up when they feel like releasing it, now ill be happy if my ps3 doesnt die before it comes out
 
I agree with you all on the lack of com....

... but you seem to forget PD isnt operating in a vacuum ( altho they msy seem to be)

Their work is highly visible and followed.

Imagine FM releasing the feature before PD...
Whatever PD is strggling on, they cant just come out and say it to the world...

This is not some microsoft feature. This CM has a lot more implications tied to....
I wouldnt be surprised if there was some patents being written for it...

This CM could actually make PD work beyond the realms of video games...

So your puty little request will have to wait...
"Communication" =/= giving away company secrets. They can do one without worrying about the other.
 
If Polyphony were more transparent with the status of the Course Maker I would probably be a lot less frustrated (and a lot more tolerant) after all this time. It amazes me how a company and product with such a fanbase fails to appreciate this concept.

Why you frustrated? it comes when it comes
 
"Communication" =/= giving away company secrets. They can do one without worrying about the other.
Maybe to somebody like you, devoid of even an ounce of technical knowhow in their bones, but people who make games, and I mean the people that make them, that design and implement the systems that make games interesting and engaging, have ingenuity and insight dripping from their pores. :P

To people like them, the slightest slip from some silly marketing dude, focused on connotation and having zero idea of what words actually mean, is everything. I witnessed this on the SMS forums.

I do it myself, mostly for fun, to the degree I am able; for example, I know a lot more about AES than I'll ever publicly reveal. There is literally zero chance I am alone on that front. If PD were making any noise about it, a great many more people would know than already do. Luckily for PD, the industry opinion is still heavily stacked in the opposite direction...

On that note, consider the following from Kaz: "We’ve been working on a new system for generating sounds for a few years now". Doesn't really mean a thing to you, in the all-important practical sense, I'd wager; doesn't mean much to a marketer except "new = better"; but to me, even with my limited insight, and to the average industry veteran with far more knowledge than I? It means the game is afoot! ;)
 
Maybe to somebody like you, devoid of even an ounce of technical knowhow in their bones, but people who make games, and I mean the people that make them, that design and implement the systems that make games interesting and engaging, have ingenuity and insight dripping from their pores. :P

To people like them, the slightest slip from some silly marketing dude, focused on connotation and having zero idea of what words actually mean, is everything. I witnessed this on the SMS forums.

I do it myself, mostly for fun, to the degree I am able; for example, I know a lot more about AES than I'll ever publicly reveal. There is literally zero chance I am alone on that front. If PD were making any noise about it, a great many more people would know than already do. Luckily for PD, the industry opinion is still heavily stacked in the opposite direction...

On that note, consider the following from Kaz: "We’ve been working on a new system for generating sounds for a few years now". Doesn't really mean a thing to you, in the all-important practical sense, I'd wager; doesn't mean much to a marketer except "new = better"; but to me, even with my limited insight, and to the average industry veteran with far more knowledge than I? It means the game is afoot! ;)
SMS is a crowd funded game with access to some technical data given to thousands. The situation with PD is completely different. Communication =/= giving away company secrets.
 
SMS is a crowd funded game with access to some technical data given to thousands. The situation with PD is completely different. Communication =/= giving away company secrets.
That has not in any way addressed my reply. You're just stomping your feet and repeating yourself.

I was specifically referring to technical insight into other games, evidenced on the WMD boards. They were using what had been said about those games, filtering out marketing BS, to learn their "secrets" (combined with playing them, where possible). Mostly to avoid making the same mistakes, or to justify their own design decisions by contrast. Of course, this just served to tweak their direction, it was already defined from the off, more or less, and it generally concerned the more subjective aspects of game design - i.e. design choices.


But a new method of generating sound, or the course maker? These are fundamental new avenues that would be lucrative for any developer to "copy", if they could, and go beyond mere design choices in terms of gameplay, by opening up more choices and expanding the scope for differentiation and unique experiences. Not many would be so brazen as to outright copy it (passing of batons notwithstanding), and almost everyone would put their own spin on it, but a USP is a USP, and should be neutralised.

Ordinarily, I'd be on the side of free flow of information and letting everyone do what they want, but in the getting ripped-off stakes, I think PD have earned a period of exclusivity, if they can pull it off. Hence the silence? Who knows, but it's far from unlikely.


On the very simple face of it, and assuming the "competition" model for the market GT inhabits, just knowing that PD were working on a course maker might make others try to cover that angle themselves. On the other hand, "knowing" that it might just be a tweak of the GT5 attempt might make others not bother... But then we know it's supposed to be different, and exactly how. We've seen a sneak preview of one area already, and it's clear how it's intended to work at a technical level, but what isn't clear is how much of that gets exposed to the player. That is fundamental in informing how hard to push the technical wrapping to user-interface aspect on a similar feature if you were to make one yourself. If PD had already shown us that in advance, then others will know just which parts of the difficult technical packaging problem were tackled, and which bits were ignored, glossed over or hacked - that sets a target in the distance.
 
That has not in any way addressed my reply. You're just stomping your feet and repeating yourself.

I was specifically referring to technical insight into other games, evidenced on the WMD boards. They were using what had been said about those games, filtering out marketing BS, to learn their "secrets" (combined with playing them, where possible). Mostly to avoid making the same mistakes, or to justify their own design decisions by contrast. Of course, this just served to tweak their direction, it was already defined from the off, more or less, and it generally concerned the more subjective aspects of game design - i.e. design choices.


But a new method of generating sound, or the course maker? These are fundamental new avenues that would be lucrative for any developer to "copy", if they could, and go beyond mere design choices in terms of gameplay, by opening up more choices and expanding the scope for differentiation and unique experiences. Not many would be so brazen as to outright copy it (passing of batons notwithstanding), and almost everyone would put their own spin on it, but a USP is a USP, and should be neutralised.

Ordinarily, I'd be on the side of free flow of information and letting everyone do what they want, but in the getting ripped-off stakes, I think PD have earned a period of exclusivity, if they can pull it off. Hence the silence? Who knows, but it's far from unlikely.


On the very simple face of it, and assuming the "competition" model for the market GT inhabits, just knowing that PD were working on a course maker might make others try to cover that angle themselves. On the other hand, "knowing" that it might just be a tweak of the GT5 attempt might make others not bother... But then we know it's supposed to be different, and exactly how. We've seen a sneak preview of one area already, and it's clear how it's intended to work at a technical level, but what isn't clear is how much of that gets exposed to the player. That is fundamental in informing how hard to push the technical wrapping to user-interface aspect on a similar feature if you were to make one yourself. If PD had already shown us that in advance, then others will know just which parts of the difficult technical packaging problem were tackled, and which bits were ignored, glossed over or hacked - that sets a target in the distance.

So what?

You stated earlier we're not game developers/coders and dont have the technical skills. Yes you're correct but that does not remove others freedom to express their oppinion. Heck you're not a journalist (probably) so how can others dictate what others say and how? Just because you don't fully understand something or know does not remove ones pleasure of expressing their opinion on the matter. Heck if that was the case conversation would be very brief and non-existent. Plus its how socially cultures advance and learn, pertaining right down to individuals too.

Nowhere has anyone stated they know better at the technical aspects than PD nor said anything about the technical aspects of it. Most have taken the issue on face value that PD said about 11 months ago the course maker was working and in beta testing with its realese on their horizon.

I as well as many others are not programers and have bought GT6 purely as a luxury (entertain) item and couldn't care less whats been holding PD up with the course maker release. Allost want is PD to say hey, we're having difficulties with x and are not happy with it currently, sorry for the delay. Which does not give out any trade secrets and if others do copy. There is such a law as Intelectual Property and if someone does copy and is found to infringe upon evident similarities there are financial remedies.
 
So what?

You stated earlier we're not game developers/coders and dont have the technical skills. Yes you're correct but that does not remove others freedom to express their oppinion. Heck you're not a journalist (probably) so how can others dictate what others say and how? Just because you don't fully understand something or know does not remove ones pleasure of expressing their opinion on the matter. Heck if that was the case conversation would be very brief and non-existent. Plus its how socially cultures advance and learn, pertaining right down to individuals too.

Nowhere has anyone stated they know better at the technical aspects than PD nor said anything about the technical aspects of it. Most have taken the issue on face value that PD said about 11 months ago the course maker was working and in beta testing with its realese on their horizon.

I as well as many others are not programers and have bought GT6 purely as a luxury (entertain) item and couldn't care less whats been holding PD up with the course maker release. Allost want is PD to say hey, we're having difficulties with x and are not happy with it currently, sorry for the delay. Which does not give out any trade secrets and if others do copy. There is such a law as Intelectual Property and if someone does copy and is found to infringe upon evident similarities there are financial remedies.

The statement made was that PD not communicating on the issue is possibly because they do not want to "tip off" their "competition".

To state that this is false is to deny the people making that statement "the pleasure of expressing their opinion on the matter".

Either it works both ways, or it doesn't work at all.


My position is this: No, you're not entitled to your opinion. As long as facts are concerned.

If you want idle chit chat and fantasy talk, then there are places for that. GTPlanet's mission statement is to be a factual resource, incidentally.
 
That has not in any way addressed my reply. You're just stomping your feet and repeating yourself.
Except your reply doesn't actually refute what he said. How does something so simple as an assurance that the feature is still targeted to even be released, 11 months after the supposedly nearly complete feature was last discussed at all, divulge any technical secrets for Turn 10 or whatever to pounce on and rush out themselves? Why is it that the only reason we have any reason to believe that the Course Maker hasn't fallen the way of the GT5 YouTube Upload or GT5:Prologue Garage Import is through secondhand information that is merely "official" rather than actually official? And if PD are so worried about competition stealing the Course Maker ideas from them is indeed the reason, shouldn't they have thought of that before they gave rough but still occasionally detailed outlines of how it would work 18 months ago?


It's certainly true that they can't just throw open the doors and let everyone into what they are working on, but saying nothing out of perceived fear of thunder stealing (and after promise of more transparency, no less) is equally ridiculous.
 
Every year, I try to do at least two things with my students at least once. First, I make a point of addressing them as “philosophers” – a bit cheesy, but hopefully it encourages active learning.

Secondly, I say something like this: “I’m sure you’ve heard the expression ‘everyone is entitled to their opinion.’ Perhaps you’ve even said it yourself, maybe to head off an argument or bring one to a close. Well, as soon as you walk into this room, it’s no longer true. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”

We aren't Patrick Stokes students nor in his class room, so that article is irrelevant here.

Facts are concerned - PD stated about 11 months ago the course maker was nearly ready to be released. So i do not understand how...

The situation with PD is completely different. Communication =/= giving away company secrets.

To state that this is false is to deny the people making that statement "the pleasure of expressing their opinion on the matter".

Either it works both ways, or it doesn't work at all.


My position is this: No, you're not entitled to your opinion. As long as facts are concerned.

If you want idle chit chat and fantasy talk, then there are places for that. GTPlanet's mission statement is to be a factual resource, incidentally.

Sounds like you could heed your own advise. You have taken to assumption that no one else knows what they are talking about as

Maybe to somebody like you, devoid of even an ounce of technical knowhow in their bones..

If you want idle chit chat and fantasy talk, then there are places for that. GTPlanet's mission statement is to be a factual resource, incidentally.

The whole site is idle chit chat, its dedicated to discussion and providing information about a video game (not a pressing matter in any formation). Founded on a collaboration of individuals passion and the lack of information provided on the game. Also nowhere has any factual information been given in this thread.

While GTPlanets mission statement is to provide factual information, this is not inherrently the expression nor oppinions of GTPlanet. But soley a thread titled, "so about that course creator" which is an open question and to a reasonable doubted person would be see as an invitation to discussion on the course maker. Set in a tone which can be seen as conveying annoyance and dispair.
 
@Jimmy_DA I never said I was more qualified than anyone else. I explicitly stated my incapacity to comment with authority, in fact. I was talking about games developers.

Except your reply doesn't actually refute what he said. How does something so simple as an assurance that the feature is still targeted to even be released, 11 months after the supposedly nearly complete feature was last discussed at all, divulge any technical secrets for Turn 10 or whatever to pounce on and rush out themselves? Why is it that the only reason we have any reason to believe that the Course Maker hasn't fallen the way of the GT5 YouTube Upload or GT5:Prologue Garage Import is through secondhand information that is merely "official" rather than actually official? And if PD are so worried about competition stealing the Course Maker ideas from them is indeed the reason, shouldn't they have thought of that before they gave rough but still occasionally detailed outlines of how it would work 18 months ago?


It's certainly true that they can't just throw open the doors and let everyone into what they are working on, but saying nothing out of perceived fear of thunder stealing (and after promise of more transparency, no less) is equally ridiculous.
There's no communication without information. Even the act of saying something constitutes information, and the signposting / timing aspects I discussed are still applicable ("thunder stealing", as you put it - which PD do themselves, annoyingly).

There's also the question of whether it would truly satisfy anyone at this point (assuming that's why communication is desired), especially if there is still any uncertainty on PD's part - better to be quiet until it is certain, given the history? That's up for debate.

I never said it was the only reason, only that it's wrong to say it's definitely not a possible reason.
I wasn't defending the "ridiculousness" of the situation we're in, either.
 
GTP is hilarious;

The paragraphs upon paragraphs sent to each other about stuff that, in the big scheme of things, is entirely irrelevant.

Never ceases to amuse.


Although, I can't talk much about time wasting... :guilty:
we should try to send all the things written so far about gt to PD and see what happens.
and by sending i mean flooding their mail server until GT7 shows up.
 
@Jimmy_DA I never said I was more qualified than anyone else. I explicitly stated my incapacity to comment with authority, in fact. I was talking about games developers.


There's no communication without information. Even the act of saying something constitutes information, and the signposting / timing aspects I discussed are still applicable ("thunder stealing", as you put it - which PD do themselves, annoyingly).

There's also the question of whether it would truly satisfy anyone at this point (assuming that's why communication is desired), especially if there is still any uncertainty on PD's part - better to be quiet until it is certain, given the history? That's up for debate.

I never said it was the only reason, only that it's wrong to say it's definitely not a possible reason.
I wasn't defending the "ridiculousness" of the situation we're in, either.

Blah :cheers: i more join these (at times heated) discussions as i find it more enjoyable and interesting to hear everyones views and opinion's than actually playing GT6 itself.

Just irrates me when the whole you're not a programmer etc etc. Well of course i (we) know who we are and what we're capable of. I just dislike how every thing has to be placed into a group/heading, people are more than what they do.

Thanks for keeping it interesting :gtpflag:
 
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