So what's new Physics wise?

[CoolColJ]

The more I play it, the more it feels like physics from the Time Trial mixed together with Enthusia. The coder for the Enthusia physics engine now works for PD, so it's not a big surprise I guess 💡
Front wheel drive cars still aren't modelled that well as far as torque steer and some types of oversteer effects though.

Also the FFB on oversteer still doesn't seem to have the auto-countersteer effect, or maybe it's just too weak, and the wheel spin coming out of turns, when you let go of the wheel, that Enthusia had.
The wheel does go light when you understeer though or when you lock the brakes on turn in.

Donuts from a stationary start feel and look right to me. Holden Monaro (standard car), FR, does it no problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnZGrI4q_J0
[YOUTUBEHD]BnZGrI4q_J0[/YOUTUBEHD]

I did some drifting online for kicks, and after 2 laps of it on Eiger short, the tyre wear meter was only at 75% level, but the grip was just about shot!

 

[unv412]

I meant to referance the "pedal mashed to the floor carrying big speed it lacks the "OMG are we going to stop in time feeling" as an ABS characteristic (not ABS off) ....sorry my bad.

The stuff about the Enthusia coder now working for PD is interesting (my favorite PS2 driving game ever) as I wonder why then they didnt include that black flag system for the races

Now all PD has to do is get the guy how done the physics (including crash physics) for Live For Speed ......along with the guys who do the car selection at Forza (Enthusia car list was pretty outstanding too) with the guys who did the damage for NFS Shift..........and get them to work on patches and DLC,s.....and the game should be spot on!!!!

 

[CoolColJ]

They had a flag system shown in various demos, but in the final game, nada...
That applies for a lot of things

The death of PP system is puzzling, would have made the game more challanging, relying on skill rather than bringing in a faster car. And quicktune would have made online a lot easier to dial in the cars to specific regs

 

[unv412]

Standing start wheelspin is also a little bit contrived.....unrealistic with many cars too (could be factor with clutch workings?)

 

[otago]

Standing start wheelspin is also a little bit contrived.....unrealistic with many cars too

I don't know. I always have wheelspin even with 150 hp FF cars when I get a little bit enthusiastic about throttling when the traffic light changes to green.

Still don't feel to much like tire physics is present in game at all. Sometimes car feels pretty weird

 

[danben7]

Standing start wheelspin is also a little bit contrived.....unrealistic with many cars too (could be factor with clutch workings?)

????
If you dump the clutch you can wheelspin in nearly ANY car (dependent upon the tyres)

In my old daihatsu charade (70hp from the factory - and now was thrashed 300k kms, so alot less) it would wheelspin if i reved it up to 6k and dropped the clutch.

Games without wheelspin being possible on all cars is unrealistic.

 

[Anes]

Ooh this thread again.

Take a f430 Scud fully modified with sport softs and hot lap it.
Take a f430 Scud fully modified with racing hards and hot lap it.

The sport softs while not as grippy are more forgiving but if you make a slight mistake and over correct on the racing hards they will bite, and bite hard. That's realistic 👍

I was testing this on the final turn of trial mountain (Not using the kerb)

Edit: Disable all aids and use a steering wheel..

 

[Arwin]

Yesterday I had my first go at the rally special events, and I am surprised because the engine RPM drops a lot in tight corners (special event in la Toscana gravel circuit with the WRC Focus). It feels as if the car were severely underpowered... feels weird, even thought that there was something wrong with pedals...

Any opinion on this?

Yeah, turn off TCS ...

Everyone posting in this thread should always be required to post all their settings at least once. E.g. if you are driving with a wheel, did you bother to go into the settings menu and change from Amateur to Sim settings? Did you actually turn off TCS? Make any settings changes to the car? Were your tires cold? (Something I noticed having become a factor somewhere along the lines in A-Spec yesterday) What level are you? Were you driving in A-Spec or Arcade? Etc.

 

[CoolColJ]

Stock Mclaren F1 on it's stock hard sports tyres = handful
Once you add the LM imitation wings, skirts and splitter, plus upgrade to medium sports tyres it feels grippier, but you still need to be really ginger with the throttle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxMxCI5CBUE



I've always wondered why it was so slow on the Best Motoring Tsukuba time attack, now I know why. It's hard to drive on the limit with these tyres

In my first try, once I was able to stay on the track, I got around the same time 1'05+ vs 1'04.62. You have to be really ginger on the throttle much like in the video. I eventually improved my time to 1:03.075. I'm trying to drive hard, but the car doesn't like you throwing it around, have to be really ultra smooth with everything

It doesn't roll and pitch as much as the real thing though, and some camber would help plus getting rid of the default rear toe 👎

 

[shirakawaa]

It doesn't roll and pitch as much as the real thing though, and some camber would help plus getting rid of the default rear toe 👎

Wheel alignment data (camber, toe) in GT5 is wrong for most cars, if not all of them.
I don't know how PD managed to screw up that as even tire repairers have access to databases with proper camber and toe values for every car manufactured.

 

[CoolColJ]

Also something is wrong with the Caterham Fireblade in this game.

It's specs suggest it should be much faster than it is, but the engine is so lethargic, like maybe the flywheel is too heavy or something....

 

[sumbrownkid]

Also something is wrong with the Caterham Fireblade in this game.

It's specs suggest it should be much faster than it is, but the engine is so lethargic, like maybe the flywheel is too heavy or something....

Lethargic like the 905 in GT4?

 

[CoolColJ]

Lethargic like the 905 in GT4?

Didn't drive that in GT4

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Just reading through this thread, opinions on the physics seem to vary pretty wildly from one end of the spectrum to the other.
I guess thats to be expected since its a very individual oriented determination, based on a unique set of variable experiences.

At this point having progressed through much of the games events, I still can't seem to make a complete determination of what I think of the physics.

I lean toward adapting to them whatever the case, since ultimately that is what must be done, and don't have a overly strong expectation of how they should be. Only once so far have I had the opinion that the physics of a car bordered "unrealistic", that being the oscillating snap hook tendencies of the Lambo in the Tuscana special race. Since I've never driven one, possibly it does have that tendency, it just didn't feel quite right.

The physics seem to be more individual depending on the car. That probably goes in favor of the "more realistic" claimants to some extent.
However some of the tendencies of certain cars seem exaggerated.

Some cars, with nasty tendencies, seem more time consuming to adjust to and manage, especially with the aids off.
Likewise also more difficult to, if suspension adjustable, respond to adjustments.
Although some of this could be attributable to the lack of extended seat time with individual cars.

In comparison, the physics strike me as a next gen, technical mix of GT3 and GT5P, being more pronounced and less forgiving than either of those, as well as GT4, and FM3.

It does seem sort of unique, not like any game I've played previously.

Whether they are better, worse, more realistic, or less so, I'm not sure as of yet. I'll have to do some more sampling.
I also play with a DS3, have golded all the specials, save a couple and all the license except S which I haven't gotten to yet.
This game could be more tailored to wheel players, most of them seem to like the physics.

EDIT; I did recall another example of a borderline unrealistic car in a license test, A, I think. The one at Lemans where you go down the long straight and take the sharp right at the end. The car was a Infinity I think. This car pushed so bad at even that low cornering speed you had to turn it into the corner while breaking to get back on the throttle. I don't know about that one.

 

[Boris Lozac]

Only once so far have I had the opinion that the physics of a car bordered "unrealistic", that being the oscillating snap hook tendencies of the Lambo in the Tuscana special race. Since I've never driven one, possibly it does have that tendency, it just didn't feel quite right.

That event literally made me sick, for the god awfull physics, simply horrendous, and that pitch black night..

Anyways, i'm pretty much the same as you, still can't put my finger on the physics, it really varies, depending on the car AND the track, found the physics to be quite 'simplified' on the fantasy tracks..
Playing with a DFGT and as realistically as possible, also LFS player for many years..

 

[CoolColJ]

Watch this video, of a R8 v10 being driven by the average person with and without aids. The Aids are always on, stability, traction control and ABS, you normally can't turn them off, but with Audi engineers you can as per this show.

http://www.exceta.com/media/1592/The_Gadget_Show_Audi_R8_V10_With_No_Driver_Aids_0/

Even with a rear wheel biased 4WD system on a mid engined car, pretty much like a Lambo, the the rear end of the car was snapping about without the aids on street tyres!! He even has problems just driving off the grass back onto the road

And an R8 is probably better sorted than a Lambo, and has less power/torque too.
Goes to show, most people do not realise how little grip street tyres have, and mid engined cars like to waggle their tail about.
They like to think they know how cars might handle, and think they could drive them well without aids, but don't really have a clue in reality

 

[sukerkin]

A good point, CoolColJ. I was getting dispirited with the lack of grip with Sports tyres on my Chrome Line Murcielago at Rome until I realised the speeds I was trying to take corners at, whilst 'normal' for GT4 physics (with tyres much grippier than reality), were far too high .

A car can do whatever speed you want pretty much on any tyre you like in a straight line - ask it to take a corner at Racing Tyre pace whilst shod with Sports rubber and GT5 physics will slap you in the face with a wet fish .

This is a good thing rather than a terrible one in my estimation 👍.

 

[robmuzz]

One of the main reasons the "realistic physics" debate seems to be so widespread, is the amount of variables involved.

You can get a 13yo who's used to NFS will claim that this program is better than that, or a real world motor racing driver will say that X is closer than Y to the real thing.

Factors like, do you use a wheel peripheral? Gamepad? In-game help like steering assist TCS or ABS? (I try to drive in games according to the car I'm in, so, in a 1954 SL, I wouldn't have ABS and TCS turned on.) Can have a huge impact on how "real" the driving experience is for you. Even, what view you use can make a difference.


The thruth is, it all depends on how you use the software, and what you want from it.

I've been driving in real-life for over 20 years and have driven cars with varying power.

I started sim-racing many years ago with things PC sims, so I already had a good idea
of how close a simulation can get to the real thing. Sadly although a great game, in my opinion, GT has never had a realistic physics model.... Until GT5 (Not prologue)

Personally I was a huge fan of the physics engine in FM3, getting lots of friends to buy Xboxes because of my evangelical avocation of the real feel of weight and mass there.

Now however, I find myself questioning my loyalty.

Why?

No GT5 hasn't got the perfect driving model. You only need to manoeuvre at low-speeds to see the car drift sideways across the track. (BTW. Very low speed handling is actually a very good indication of how realistic the physics will be in a game.)

BUT! I've been swapping from FM3 to GT5 a lot in the past few weeks and I have to admit, I'm starting to prefer the physics model in GT5.

Do you agree? Has it changed your mind?

 

[sukerkin]

One thing in the physics that I do dislike is the the return of the GT3 style 'Unavoidable Crash Subroutine'. By this I mean that if you mess up, it is almost impossible not to end up "proceeding to the scene of the accident", which is normally nose in to the barrier i.e. the chance of gathering the car up again is slim {tho' I have found the absurd action of 'sawing' the wheel rapidly sometimes helps }.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Watch this video, of a R8 v10 being driven by the average person with and without aids. The Aids are always on, stability, traction control and ABS, you normally can't turn them off, but with Audi engineers you can as per this show.

http://www.exceta.com/media/1592/The_Gadget_Show_Audi_R8_V10_With_No_Driver_Aids_0/

Even with a rear wheel biased 4WD system on a mid engined car, pretty much like a Lambo, the the rear end of the car was snapping about without the aids on street tyres!! He even has problems just driving off the grass back onto the road

And an R8 is probably better sorted than a Lambo, and has less power/torque too.
Goes to show most people do not realise how little grip street tyres have, and mid engined cars like to waggle their tail about.
They like to think they know how cars might handle, and think they could drive them well without aids, but don't really have a clue in reality

Its a given the computerized aids make you almost mistake proof.
The B2 is not flyable without them. It cannot be humanly piloted.
Thats why the traction control in GT5 uses delay throttle at upper settings to prevent you from being too good withit on, like the guy in the Audi.

I saw the backend come around but not oscillate in a snap hook fashion.
Possibly the driver did not make a serious attempt at saving the car by turning into the skid quick enough to induce it.
It is possible as I said that the car has that tendency, it just seemed exaggerated.

The grip is relative to the speed and attempted turning radius.
Certainly high perf street tires won't have the grip of racing tires

One thing in the physics that I do dislike is the the return of the GT3 style 'Unavoidable Crash Subroutine'. By this I mean that if you mess up, it is almost impossible not to end up "proceeding to the scene of the accident", which is normally nose in to the barrier i.e. the chance of gathering the car up again is slim {tho' I have found the absurd action of 'sawing' the wheel rapidly sometimes helps }.

It seems to be individually car dependant.
Some you can save, and some are as good as gone.

 

[CoolColJ]

One thing in the physics that I do dislike is the the return of the GT3 style 'Unavoidable Crash Subroutine'. By this I mean that if you mess up, it is almost impossible not to end up "proceeding to the scene of the accident", which is normally nose in to the barrier i.e. the chance of gathering the car up again is slim {tho' I have found the absurd action of 'sawing' the wheel rapidly sometimes helps }.

It does
Keep it together now! 👍

 

[XEPEGTP]

Didn't drive that in GT4

In GT4 the 905 has odd gearing, it builds up slowly with a seemingly low redline, but you just have to do the tranny trick and adjust the gears to your liking, also it shifts very slowly, but even at that it got one of my best ever times at C.de LaSarthe because it handles great and looks cool as crap.

The Caterham has a very wide 1st gear because of its high rev limit(something around 12k), maybe buying the full transmission and making a narrow 1st would fix it, if not the cheaper solution is to get the racing flywheel and shift before the redline 3\4 the way about 7-8k rpm.

Cool Caterham R246 video.

 

[CoolColJ]

In GT4 the 905 has odd gearing, it builds up slowly with a seemingly low redline, but you just have to do the tranny trick and adjust the gears to your liking, also it shifts very slowly, but even at that it got one of my best ever times at C.de LaSarthe because it handles great and looks cool as crap.

The Caterham has a very wide 1st gear because of its high rev limit(something around 12k), maybe buying the full transmission and making a narrow 1st would fix it, if not the cheaper solution is to get the racing flywheel and shift before the redline 3\4 the way about 7-8k rpm.

The semi-racing flywheel helped, but we don't have racing flywheels anymore, and I don't want the transmission whine of the 6 speed custom box

Does the close ratio 5 speed have whine?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

BUT! I've been swapping from FM3 to GT5 a lot in the past few weeks and I have to admit, I'm starting to prefer the physics model in GT5.

Do you agree? Has it changed your mind?

I do like the feel of the FM3 physics. I thought they were pretty good.
Prior to that I had played GT4 so many hours I was completely in tune to the physics of that game. I thought fairly quickly, FM3 was better.

GT5 hasn't had that effect as of yet.
Like I said I need some more seat time in it before I can really make a determination.
I think at this point I'm still getting a feel for them and adjusting to it.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Oops, sorry for the double post.
This was supposed to go in the post above.

It does
Keep it together now! 👍

A truly great save. Oscillation was present here but reducible. Made possible by very quick countering of over-correction.

 

[Zer0]

One thing in the physics that I do dislike is the the return of the GT3 style 'Unavoidable Crash Subroutine'. By this I mean that if you mess up, it is almost impossible not to end up "proceeding to the scene of the accident", which is normally nose in to the barrier i.e. the chance of gathering the car up again is slim {tho' I have found the absurd action of 'sawing' the wheel rapidly sometimes helps }.

 

[digitalic]

why do race car drives wiggle or wobble the wheel so much? Is there some sort of benefit to this?

 

[FyreandIce]

why do race car drives wiggle or wobble the wheel so much? Is there some sort of benefit to this?

It's to help find that limit of grip. Essentially they are searching for the limit.

I actually find my self doing that when ever I race with a wheel in Forza.

 

[mykem]

why do race car drives wiggle or wobble the wheel so much? Is there some sort of benefit to this?

Just as you would modulate or feather your brake and gas pedals to balance the front-rear movement of the car, you use the steering wheel to constantly adjust the lateral (and diagonal) weight shift of the car. It''s essentially a balancing act to place the necessary weight to the right tires in order to maintain grip while cornering. This is harder in a car like the RUF or any RR (rear engined rear wheel drive) because of where the weight and power actually sits (at the rear). The same would apply to mid engine cars (with rear wheel drive) and even front engine rear wheel drive cars even though the weight and power placement differ. While AWD cars are not immune, they do require a lot less effort because of the more even distribution of power between the tires.

 

[unv412]

????
If you dump the clutch you can wheelspin in nearly ANY car (dependent upon the tyres)

In my old daihatsu charade (70hp from the factory - and now was thrashed 300k kms, so alot less) it would wheelspin if i reved it up to 6k and dropped the clutch.

Games without wheelspin being possible on all cars is unrealistic.

I agree as there are some very low powered cars in GT5 that dont even so much as chirp a tyre! I guess what i was trying to say is that the initial breaking of traction (say in stock Turbo A Supra 88 with soft comfort tyres) is ok and then it turns to skating on ice where you can pedal 1 st gear for a hundred meters!

Btw all cars stock with no TC or ASC and no ABS for cars that are not also in real life..... on a G25

Stock Mclaren F1 on it's stock hard sports tyres = handful
I've always wondered why it was so slow on the Best Motoring Tsukuba time attack, now I know why. It's hard to drive on the limit with these tyres

In my first try, once I was able to stay on the track, I got around the same time 1'05+ vs 1'04.62. You have to be really ginger on the throttle much like in the video. I eventually improved my time to 1:03.075. I'm trying to drive hard, but the car doesn't like you throwing it around, have to be really ultra smooth with everything

It doesn't roll and pitch as much as the real thing though, and some camber would help plus getting rid of the default rear toe 👎

ye the Mac F1 really doesnt seem to like Tsukuba (not a power circuit) but it would be king on something like Fuji or Suzuka:tup:

If you look close in the original BMI VHS you'll see it leaves faint black marks for pretty much the whole way around Tsukuba

P.S one day i will share my complete collection of Best Motoring with Ebay once i get around to copying em on DVD!

Watch this video, of a R8 v10 being driven by the average person with and without aids. The Aids are always on, stability, traction control and ABS, you normally can't turn them off, but with Audi engineers you can as per this show.

you can pretty much turn any TC/stability off....you just have to do a little research on the web! My cuz was dissappointed with a rental Camry given to him interstate whilst at work....said TC was not fully switchable to off......then found (on the net) that when you switch the key to reds and hold the TC button for 3 seconds whilst pumpinthe brake pedal, finishing with letting the ebrake down and then starting the car.....smokey burnouts were back on the menu!

ABS more difficult to disable but some are done by just pulling a fuse.