Something Just DOESNT Quite Add up...

[Zathra5_]

Obviously went over your head. Don't worry about it.

And in any case, if a developer has a good, accurate and realistic physics simulation, they tent to make sure the public know about it with their PR strategy. Enthusia Professional Racing, FM, FM2, FM3, Race Pro certainly did. GTR, GTR2 and LFS... GT5 hasn't exactly dazzeled us with their physics simulation PR, yet, we live and hope.

I'm sorry, I guess my background as a scientist who has published in mechanical engineering journals makes me ill suited to refute arguments purported to be based on physics. I'll make sure to defer to you in the future.

EDIT: Loving the instant aggression from 2 posters. I'm not flattering myself No46_TheDoctor, and I did say it was how I see it, and not how it is. It's right on the first line on my post. I can't be bothered to argue on this anyway, I posted what I wanted to say so it's all good.

You make a completely unsupported argument and you don't expected to be called on it?

 

[craste]

I'm sorry, I guess my background as a scientist who has published in mechanical engineering journals makes me ill suited to refute arguments purported to be based on physics. I'll make sure to defer to you in the future.

Classic.👍

 

[Nomino]

It might be classic, but since when does having a thorough understanding of flight theory and fluid dynamics automatially qualify someody to fly an aeroplane? Just an analogy, but you get my meaning. Theory does not always equal real-world experience.

On-topic (kinda'), I personally think that neither Forza or GT have got the driving element truly nailed. They can't, because 99% of people play sat on a sofa with their game pads. Physics models that behave as you expect are the order of the day here, not necessarily how they would truly behave in real life.

 

[Devedander]

It might be classic, but since when does having a thorough understanding of flight theory and fluid dynamics automatially qualify someody to fly an aeroplane? Just an analogy, but you get my meaning. Theory does not always equal real-world experience.

On-topic (kinda'), I personally think that neither Forza or GT have got the driving element truly nailed. They can't, because 99% of people play sat on a sofa with their game pads. Physics models that behave as you expect are the order of the day here, not necessarily how they would truly behave in real life.

I have always wondered about that... accurate lap times... with a controller? I mean lock to lock in .01 seconds is gonna mess with stuff, certainly the game has some kind of built in counter for this, but then there is something else not quite real, what effects does the counter measure have and how realistic are the results after factoring it in? I mean I know that when I crank the stick side to side the wheels sure turn on the car faster than I ever could on any kind of stock steering ratio.

With a wheel and pedals, far better than a stick, but then you are still fighting forcefeedback that isn't necessarily accurate to what it would feel like to really drive, you aren't fighting G's and momentun while controlling stuff...

I have always wondered about "It feels just like driving the real thing"... does it? How many people who say that have really driven the real thing? I would think I have driven less than 2 dozen types of cars in my life and none of them supercars or super luxury cars. And has anyone driven them with a controller? Or even an undersized wheel with motors fighting you inside it and pedals that have no feedback...

It alost seems to me that considering all the not realistic things on the drivers end, that accurate lap times almost says something is wrong with the physics...

Just seems like a lot of questions that never really get looked at...

 

[turbomp301]

I would think that letting the game makers know what we want so they can do it best the first time would be better...

I mean apparently KY is waiting to hear feedback from the fans as to just how much damage they actually want... well it seems pretty obvious that as long as you leave a switch to turn off the damage option, the vast majority want it... but no, it's better to do it this way, leave it out or only partially in and then let your fans get into big drawn out arguments over whether it's important or not or whether it's ok to be dissapointed in it because that's how PD wants it to be etc... then have to work to patch it in later...

No I don't think that's a good way to do it.

yes that is the perfect way to do it. Its crazy you know what Kaz is thinking, thats an amazing skill.

GT is Kaz's game and has always been Kaz's game. Let me give you some history. When GT came out for PS1, console driving sims were not being asked for. Kaz made it happen. So let the man do his thing and make your opinion heard with your wallet.

IMO, complaining about damage is what has caused Kaz to put it in GT5, which has caused the release date being pushed back which causes more compliants. We just got news of a 458 being in GT5 and the first question on peoples minds (especially when comparing it to Forza3) is "can i wreck it". This isnt the game Kaz set out to create as he said in the Beyond the Apex video.

Forza is a series that tries to be everything to everyone and yet the GT series somehow always raises to the top. I hope, one day, you understand why.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

I'm sorry, I guess my background as a scientist who has published in mechanical engineering journals makes me ill suited to refute arguments purported to be based on physics. I'll make sure to defer to you in the future.



You make a completely unsupported argument and you don't expected to be called on it?

Yes, but of course you are a scientist dear. And please don't defer to me in the future. You did not refute any arguments pertaining to physics or my theories. You just latched on to the last sentence of the first big pharagraph, Mr. Scientist. Oh yes, you really put me in my place!

My argument was supported well enough. Just a shame the first two people that read my post and replied were, well, let's not go there.

 

[danielj58]

I dont't know if it's been brought up before, but could it be, that these premium cars are the cars that polyphony has "paid" for, ie the WRC and NASCAR vehicles?

 

[Kinetic]

Yes, but of course you are a scientist dear. And please don't defer to me in the future. You did not refute any arguments pertaining to physics or my theories. You just latched on to the last sentence of the first big pharagraph, Mr. Scientist. Oh yes, you really put me in my place!

My argument was supported well enough. Just a shame the first two people that read my post and replied were, well, let's not go there.

Theres a forum for Forza and it's own official ones, since all you want to seem to do is fly there flag and put down GT with no real substance i'm sure you'd fit in alot better there..

since you have 'almost no time free' you manage to post alot of pointless things, maybe you should spend your time enjoying forza 2's better physics haha..

Also my chair is better than your chair because i brag about it, you didnt brag about your chair hence its not as good

 

[888 Tuning]

..... Yes, the simulation of physics did have minor flaws, and to achieve perfection on a console would be a very unrealistic demand, even on a supercomputer it would be difficult. However, T10 are making a mathematically correct effort to get as close as possible as the hardware allows, to reality, which is more than I can say for the physics of PD. Why? Because if GT5P or indeed GT5 had something as good or better, they would have also boasted about it.

Is there any information that qualifies the math used by Forza or is it just your opinion ? I can have the most powerful computer in the world that can run a bajillion routines at once, but its all worth naught if the routines themselves are not spot on.

That last argument about GT not boasting being proof of a lesser physics engine is simply ridiculous sorry, and is completely without evidence. I could argue with equal validity that GT5 dont need to boast about their physics engine as only an inferior product would seek to upsell over their competition.

I was pretty good at maths and science, I didnt do physics but have a passion for string theory. I work in IT and can play the guitar and I have a pretty hairy back and can speak 3 languages (Australian, English, American) so I think that qualifies my opinion.

 

[Kinetic]

Is there any information that qualifies the math used by Forza or is it just your opinion ? I can have the most powerful computer in the world that can run a bajillion routines at once, but its all worth naught if the routines themselves are not spot on.

That last argument about GT not boasting being proof of a lesser physics engine is simply ridiculous sorry, and is completely without evidence. I could argue with equal validity that GT5 dont need to boast about their physics engine as only an inferior product would seek to upsell over their competition.

I was pretty good at maths and science, I didnt do physics but have a passion for string theory. I work in IT and can play the guitar and I have a pretty hairy back and can speak 3 languages (Australian, English, American) so I think that qualifies my opinion.

Wouldnt waste your time on constructing a decent rebutal, he's obviously here to post about Forza, and yet spends alot of his 'precious' time posting here instead of playing it weird huh

 

[Devedander]

yes that is the perfect way to do it. Its crazy you know what Kaz is thinking, thats an amazing skill.

By this do you mean the part where I assume that Kaz is waiting to see how much damage people really want? You know that part I got from reading the interview that said they are waiting to see how much damage people really want? That kind of mind reading? The kind where I read some news? 💡

IMO, complaining about damage is what has caused Kaz to put it in GT5, which has caused

Wait... so you are saying that people being vocal about not having damage (ie the fans telling Kaz what they want) is what caused Kaz to put damage in GT? So the very thing we are trying to do got done? Amazing!

You should share this info with all those people who say whining is useless and we shoudl just stop and don't whine if the game hasn't been released yet, but then say don't whine now it's too late to change anything... apparently voicing your opinion is actually what works and how it should be done. Amazing!

 

[Rand al Thor]

Wouldnt waste your time on constructing a decent rebutal, he's obviously here to post about Forza, and yet spends alot of his 'precious' time posting here instead of playing it weird huh

the forza forums must be very quiet i think!

 

[Cobra_NZ]

888 Tuning, Rand al Thor and Kinetic. I'm just going to ignore you and others like you on the forum. Yo're not worth it. You're welcome to ignore my posts too.

 

[turbomp301]

By this do you mean the part where I assume that Kaz is waiting to see how much damage people really want? You know that part I got from reading the interview that said they are waiting to see how much damage people really want? That kind of mind reading? The kind where I read some news? 💡



Wait... so you are saying that people being vocal about not having damage (ie the fans telling Kaz what they want) is what caused Kaz to put damage in GT? So the very thing we are trying to do got done? Amazing!

You should share this info with all those people who say whining is useless and we shoudl just stop and don't whine if the game hasn't been released yet, but then say don't whine now it's too late to change anything... apparently voicing your opinion is actually what works and how it should be done. Amazing!

Again, you missed the point I was making. Let me try to make it clear. He is putting this into the game because of peoples complaints. Damage isn't something Kaz has cared to put in his games. People will always have something to complain about, so keep whining because its all about what you want and your obviously smarter than Kaz and the PD staff.

 

[Kinetic]

888 Tuning, Rand al Thor and Kinetic. I'm just going to ignore you and others like you on the forum. Yo're not worth it. You're welcome to ignore my posts too.

Yeah because were right..

stick to the forza forums, you'll get what you want there people just agreeing with you

 

[888 Tuning]

888 Tuning, Rand al Thor and Kinetic. I'm just going to ignore you and others like you on the forum. Yo're not worth it. You're welcome to ignore my posts too.

I was asking a valid question as to where you base your statements about forza maths?
You know well enough if you are going to make stuff up on this forum you will be called out on it.

... so we will just assume you made it all up.

 

[Devedander]

Again, you missed the point I was making. Let me try to make it clear. He is putting this into the game because of peoples complaints. Damage isn't something Kaz has cared to put in his games. People will always have something to complain about, so keep whining because its all about what you want and your obviously smarter than Kaz and the PD staff.

You are missing the point, the fans have spoken and are getting what they want. PD is making a commodity they plan to sell and are making it as appealing to their fans as possible. This is about the weirdest argument I have ever heard, that somehow listening to consumer demand is a bad thing... damn...

MS shouldn't fix RROD! The only reason they work on it is because people complain, stupid people! Can't you see MS doesn't WANT to fix the problem? They are a busines, they made a decisions to use cheap parts that fail, their logic is infallible (that is part from someone elses inane rant which is about second in lunacy to this yours turbo). You should praise MS becuase they are awesome and because they are awesome, their products are awesome and because their products are awesome they are awesome!

Do you honestly not see how what you are saying is totally off the deep end?

BTW how do YOU suddenly know what Kaz wants and cares about? Are YOU a mind reader? Double standard much?

Yeah because were right..

stick to the forza forums, you'll get what you want there people just agreeing with you

The irony...

 

[Kinetic]

You are missing the point, the fans have spoken and are getting what they want. PD is making a commodity they plan to sell and are making it as appealing to their fans as possible. This is about the weirdest argument I have ever heard, that somehow listening to consumer demand is a bad thing... damn...

MS shouldn't fix RROD! The only reason they work on it is because people complain, stupid people! Can't you see MS doesn't WANT to fix the problem? They are a busines, they made a decisions to use cheap parts that fail, their logic is infallible (that is part from someone elses inane rant which is about second in lunacy to this yours turbo). You should praise MS becuase they are awesome and because they are awesome, their products are awesome and because their products are awesome they are awesome!

Do you honestly not see how what you are saying is totally off the deep end?

BTW how do YOU suddenly know what Kaz wants and cares about? Are YOU a mind reader? Double standard much?



The irony...

Irony of me actually appriciating and playing both games ?

i just prefer valid arguments, just not one biased side and expect people to take it

 

[L_Hamilton]

OP, you just posted what has been posted a million times before, just with a different two sentences at the end.

So what you're on about is what is the damage like? or what's it going to actually be?

 

[Devedander]

Irony of me actually appriciating and playing both games ?

i just prefer valid arguments, just not one biased side and expect people to take it

No the irony that the only reason I think it's any better here than there is that it seems the ones who disagree here are harder to get rid of, not for any lack of trying from the faithful and loyal though...

 

[serversurfer]

You did not refute any arguments pertaining to physics or my theories.

Refute what? This was the entirety of your argument…

"Well, I took a math class, so excuse me if this goes over your heads, but… T10 talk about the fact that they use math. Math is good. PD doesn't talk about math, so I assume they don't use any. Therefore, Forza is demonstrably superior, regardless of its apparent accuracy."

Really? You pulled that one out? wow... just wow!

I hope you never criticize a movie until you win an Oscar.

I hope you never criticize a sports player until you are in the major leagues.

I hope you never call out a politician until you have at least governed a state.

Where do people come up with the idea that you have to have done it better than someone else before you can express your opinion? I thought we left that mindset on the playgrounds?

True dat. Competence and valid arguments are never prerequisites for leveling criticism, as ably demonstrated by Cobra and countless other Forza fans around here.

So remember, kids, anyone can become a troll.

 

[Tenacious D]

It's more than obvious that since FM to FM2 and FM3, by squeezing more processing power out of the XBOX360, there have been more and more routines added and less and less of those educated guesses. The sheer dedication to improve in the physics department so much is something I commend T10 for, especially given the relatively short development cycles compared to PD. However, there will always be flaws, it's a simulation, so sooner or later someone with the infinite processing power of the human brain, that trumps any computer, a player, will find ways to bend those rules. We're not talking Neo here, just someone finding a loop hole in the physics that others missed. Some of the loop holes were actually patched not long after the release of FM2, if anyone here remembers. That's how some have managed to get unrealistic lap times. Yes, the simulation of physics did have minor flaws, and to achieve perfection on a console would be a very unrealistic demand, even on a supercomputer it would be difficult. However, T10 are making a mathematically correct effort to get as close as possible as the hardware allows, to reality, which is more than I can say for the physics of PD. Why? Because if GT5P or indeed GT5 had something as good or better, they would have also boasted about it.

Well, just to add to the other criticisms, yes, this is basically a bunch of rather pretentious hooey.

• T10 improved the math drastically - and obviously? EH? - because they said so?
• PD has shoddy physics math because they don't crow about how definitive it is?

I'm saying that this is nothing but saying that when someone from T10 open their mouth, only metaphysical truth comes out.

There are two factors we can throw out that both games could use some work on, being Forza's oversteer and GT's boggy low speed handling. But even with both of those factors included, one game felt like GTR and Live For Speed when I went back to my consoles, and it wasn't Forza 2.

Forza 2 is very fast and very fun, and I expect FW3 to be very like it.

 

[turbomp301]

You are missing the point, the fans have spoken and are getting what they want. PD is making a commodity they plan to sell and are making it as appealing to their fans as possible. This is about the weirdest argument I have ever heard, that somehow listening to consumer demand is a bad thing... damn...

MS shouldn't fix RROD! The only reason they work on it is because people complain, stupid people! Can't you see MS doesn't WANT to fix the problem? They are a busines, they made a decisions to use cheap parts that fail, their logic is infallible (that is part from someone elses inane rant which is about second in lunacy to this yours turbo). You should praise MS becuase they are awesome and because they are awesome, their products are awesome and because their products are awesome they are awesome!

Do you honestly not see how what you are saying is totally off the deep end?

BTW how do YOU suddenly know what Kaz wants and cares about? Are YOU a mind reader? Double standard much?



The irony...

So by saying you shouldn't complain about GT, you assume I would praise M$ for the RROD??? Calm down genius

No double standard, I haven't read the interview where he asks for opinions on damage. I would appreciate a link so I can give him my two cents. My remarks on damage in GT comes form what Kaz says in "Beyond the Apex" video. You should watch it on GT:TV.

What I am saying isn't off the deep end you just need to open your mind a little bit and not be so hard headed. I am looking at this from an artistic POV where you are looking at the business end. Yes, if you want to sell the most games then you should follow trends and do what the majority does. That method has been doing wonders for Forza.

Devendander, I know your are a gifted genius with an IQ above all but try and wrap your head around this.

When making GT, Kaz shouldn't care how many games he can sell. He should do what he has always done and make the best game he can to try and satisfy his worst critic, himself. If Kaz is happy with his game, I'm sure I will be too. That might be a crazy concept to a genius like yourself but it is my opinion.

 

[Zathra5_]

Yes, but of course you are a scientist dear. And please don't defer to me in the future. You did not refute any arguments pertaining to physics or my theories. You just latched on to the last sentence of the first big pharagraph, Mr. Scientist. Oh yes, you really put me in my place!

My argument was supported well enough. Just a shame the first two people that read my post and replied were, well, let's not go there.

Wow! Great comeback! Great use of an ad hominem attack. Several people have written how your argument is flawed. If you are still having difficulty figuring it out, I'll try and walk you through the logic.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

I'm just going by what's been released by T10 and what other people in the gaming industry and professional drivers have said about T10 physics simulation. If you don't believe them, fair enough, I choose to believe it. Plus it's what I feel, not compared to a PC simulator, but to my real life experience.

I've not heard anything from PD, but maybe they'll expand on how their physics simulation works and how accurate it it at TGS or in the future. If some believe they're just being secretive, fair enough, I don't think so.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, so I respect yours, though I don't agree with it. I'm not going to ridicule your opinion or ridicule you personally as you have tried to do with me. I'm just not going to lower myself to that.

 

[serversurfer]

Perhaps PD feel their engine speaks for itself, and consequently don't feel compelled to hire anyone to attempt to convince a bunch of noobs that theirs is the better simulation.

Nah, that can't be it.

 

[lucag120]

Yeah, i think PD's approach to their video games is really professional, they have never bragged that their graphics are the best; which they are. And they do not comment on other games. Kazunori Yamauchi is a really humble man as well which helps a great deal as he is basically the 'face' of GT.

GT5 will speak for itself, its sheer vastness will engulf any other racing game ever made.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Some disscussions on here take place on in a respectful way, without attitude, in a friendly manner and without ridicule or personal comments. This isn't one of them, so I will not participate. Besides it's not the first time I've ran into myself or seen this kind of behaviour on this forum in particular, so it's no shock and I can live with it.

 

[daus26]

I'm just going by what's been released by T10 and what other people in the gaming industry and professional drivers have said about T10 physics simulation. If you don't believe them, fair enough, I choose to believe it. Plus it's what I feel, not compared to a PC simulator, but to my real life experience.

I've not heard anything from PD, but maybe they'll expand on how their physics simulation works and how accurate it it at TGS or in the future. If some believe they're just being secretive, fair enough, I don't think so.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, so I respect yours, though I don't agree with it. I'm not going to ridicule your opinion or ridicule you personally as you have tried to do with me. I'm just not going to lower myself to that.

You know some simulators use the whole celebrity thing, just like some tv ads out there. iRacing and Shift even use it. Personally, I don't think it's valid enough to just base your fact on what they say "best this, best that"...blah, blah.

With Shift, they had professional drifter Vaugh Jr. saying how the drifting physics is oh so realistic, but then when some people and even critics try it, it's nothing special.

GT5P has some celebrity as well. Tanner Foust being one. Then there's that whole GT Academy thing if you haven't noticed.

My point is that judgement based on celebrities alone shouldn't always be taken in granted. As you say it's just an opinion. I'm probably never going to be a professional driver myself so I'm not going to get in this physics argument stuff, but I do want to point this out.

 

[888 Tuning]

GT5P has some celebrity as well. Tanner Foust being one. Then there's that whole GT Academy thing if you haven't noticed.

Also good enough for Kaz to win a race at the 'ring in his first attempt.