Something Just DOESNT Quite Add up...

[Devedander]

GT4P and GT5P are not full releases.

Hmmmm...

I agree, but depends on who you ask around here... I have been told quite a few times they are as they weren't demos and sold at full price.

But not, I said "if you want to consider GT4p and 5p" so it's up to you.

If not, Kaz did realease a game every 2 years for 3 straight iterations. If you don't count 4p and 5p there have only been 4 iterations.... so 3 out of 4 were 2 years apart.

So much for never releasing a game every 2 years eh?

 

[Kinetic]

Did the entire team take months out to build GT5P? No. I didn't say GTPSP wasn't developed in-house, I said it was largely developed by a different team. By your own admission, I was correct.


If I wanted to be pedantic, I would ask what you are talking about, because Forza already came out on the original Xbox. You mean Forza 3? Why didn't you say so then?

So I'll be playing said game eh? Unless somebody does a conversion onto either PS3 or Wii, the only place I'll play Forza 3 is on somebody elses console.

Sorry to burst your bubble Kinetic. Better luck next time eh kid?

Sorry didnt know anyone was pathetic enough, to pull someone up if they meant Forza 1 or 3 in that context anyways.

So this means you actually try and troll people who are going to buy the best racing game that 'your' consoles have to offer :S

 

[Devedander]

About complaining incessantly? Pretty much. And it's definitely too late to complain about anything for GT5, so you're basically bloddying your fingers for nothing when you don't even have a game at home to complain about.

You never did get back to me on when the appropriate time was to voice complaints? Was it before it was too late to complain and thus also to early to talk about a game that hasn't been released yet? Or is it after the game releases when it serves even less purpose than it does now? Or is it just never?

I mean logically, since it's too late to change anything, we should stop talking about anything positive either, won't change anything as it will be there or it won't... so maybe just shut down the forum and leave only the news page?

 

[IsmokeGT]

If I wanted to be pedantic, I would ask what you are talking about. You mean Forza 3?

 

[turbomp301]

You never did get back to me on when the appropriate time was to voice complaints? Was it before it was too late to complain and thus also to early to talk about a game that hasn't been released yet? Or is it after the game releases when it serves even less purpose than it does now? Or is it just never?

I mean logically, since it's too late to change anything, we should stop talking about anything positive either, won't change anything as it will be there or it won't... so maybe just shut down the forum and leave only the news page?

I think since games can now be patched we shouldn't complain and try to get things changed before any games releases, unless a beta is released and the developer asks for your opinion.

 

[bullie77]

I just think that many are getting a little over-excited on the long wait since the release of prologue. And specially now that the year's is coming to end (Christmas almost 'round the corner - what better season to release a globally acclaimed game?), and since our "hunger" is getting teased even more with the rivals FM3/NFSS.

PD's policy though, under marketing perspective, is quite wise...

1) long waiting = increase of interest (you can afford that when you have such acclaimed product)

2) last of the competitors to come in to the market = always an advantage, even if only on the subconscious of the clients

3) keeping a calm attitude towards the exterior, disregarding arrival of new competitors = states true confidence about their product quality.

In business, if its true that one should always look to improver further on what is offering to the market to keep a step ahead of the competitors, also is true that "you shouldn't move too much on a 'winning team' (formula)".

The 'prologue' editions have two real purposes: a) keep interest on the series, and, b) its a 'pay-to-test' sort of beta version of what's the way to go on the upcoming episode. A kind of lab-test if will where the 'guinea-pigs' (us) would give PD feedback about their direction and strategy. Hell, better-of-it to PD, we even pay them to do it!

I repeat again my opinion: don't count on big 'revolution' the game. Slighty adjustments, improvements but nothing too ultimate as people are suggesting/wishing. One of the reasons to GT's success is, precisely, being as it is.

 

[Devedander]

I think since games can now be patched we shouldn't complain and try to get things changed before any games releases, unless a beta is released and the developer asks for your opinion.

Games have been patchable for quite a while... the number of major fix patches (like what we are talking about here) to hit consoles is pretty slim.

And I don't understand the logic of "don't try to get things fixed while the game is in development and is open and being worked on, wait until it's gold then try to get someone to figure out how to patch it after the fact". That just seems backwards to me.

Besides I am not a fan of "lemme give you my money first, then we can disucss how you can make the product worth my money".

Patching (just like DLC which is essentially patching for $$$ or double charging if you ask me) should be a last resort to fix a problem, not the norm and standard.

Something slip through testing? Weird bug in the code that didn't manifest on small scale testing? Patch it.

Decision on major game aspects and carrying out those decisions? That should be the development before release portion.

And honestly, patching and firmware updates are something that is way oversold out there as a fix all. In all my years, I honestly can remember only a handful of real solid patches or firmware updates, even though everytime a product that supports either relaeases with noteable issues, it's always "don't worry, it will be patched/updated, XXXX company is the best!".

Again... cart before the horse if you ask me

 

[Kinetic]

Socom, gets regular and good patches...

 

[Rand al Thor]

I don't see much of his so atributted "perfectionism" by having 170 Premium models, which in some way indicate they are different than the rest of the cars. Saying they are Premium is basically saying "we weren't able to do it with the other cars", but with a fancy word.

kaz gave us gran turismo. what have you done lately?

 

[turbomp301]

Games have been patchable for quite a while... the number of major fix patches (like what we are talking about here) to hit consoles is pretty slim.

And I don't understand the logic of "don't try to get things fixed while the game is in development and is open and being worked on, wait until it's gold then try to get someone to figure out how to patch it after the fact". That just seems backwards to me.

Besides I am not a fan of "lemme give you my money first, then we can disucss how you can make the product worth my money".

Patching (just like DLC which is essentially patching for $$$ or double charging if you ask me) should be a last resort to fix a problem, not the norm and standard.

Something slip through testing? Weird bug in the code that didn't manifest on small scale testing? Patch it.

Decision on major game aspects and carrying out those decisions? That should be the development before release portion.

And honestly, patching and firmware updates are something that is way oversold out there as a fix all. In all my years, I honestly can remember only a handful of real solid patches or firmware updates, even though everytime a product that supports either relaeases with noteable issues, it's always "don't worry, it will be patched/updated, XXXX company is the best!".

Again... cart before the horse if you ask me

I'm saying you should let the game makers make the game they want to make, in nobody elses vision but their own. If you dont like it then too bad. If there is a bug, it can get patched. If you think the game should have been done differently then make your own game. Complaining about a game before it is released in the hopes of changing the game to how YOU want it is selfish and immature and rude IMO. After a game comes out, you have every right to not like it, but to think "if I had complained more before the release this might be better", is ridiculous. If a developer wants your opinion, they will ask for it. Betas happen all the time.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Indeed, there is a very good chance that GT5 will be patched successfully and DLC will most likely be plentiful. But I for one would not buy GT5 on a very good chance.

Example:

In 2 days time, at TGS, PD will announce pretty much what we saw on that list prior to E3, no more, no less. Damage is improved but not much, only race cars, no roll over, no undercarriage, no tyre marks. Worse still, only about a third of the car models are premium, 100% GT5 quality. But. KY will come on stage an promise that within 3 year cycle he will perfect damage on all cars with patches to make it more realistic than any other driving game on the market today with rollover and while modelling the undercarriage on every car in the game at premium standard. KY also promises that with free DLC, he will also make all the car models premium within that time. KY also confirms his development team has found new ways to get more power from the PS3 and as a result he's very sure he will be able to incorporate improved particle effects with fantastic looking tyre smoke and tyre marks. Last but not least KY mentions that PD are also looking at simulating tyre deformation. We are then greeted with a playable demo of GT5 with what it has so far and a phenomenal looking concept trailer of what's to come in the next 3 years.

I would wait 3 years and then buy it. I just don't trust KY on past experience for one. I am not buying an unfinished product for two. Besides I would spend my precius gaming time on FM3 instead and look at GT5 Spec 7 in 2012 when it's actually got the features that I want and it looks more like a finished game. But what if in another 2-3 years FM4 is even better, by now sporting nearly 1000 cars, more tracks, more upgrades, more features demanded by community and even more polish. Looking at past experience with FM and considering FM3 engine doesn't need much more work, we're just looking at mostly content. FM4 could gain a lot of content in 2-3 years.

The above was purely hypothetical, and it's just one of the many scenarios that may play out in the next few days...

 

[BenzAMG]

yep, worst case scenario.
Very well possible!

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Yep, worst case scenario.
Very well possible!

Well hopefully it won't turn out that way if this "Major Advancement" materializes at TGS, unless it's just hot air again.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Indeed, there is a very good chance that GT5 will be patched successfully and DLC will most likely be plentiful. But I for one would not buy GT5 on a very good chance.

Example:

In 2 days time, at TGS, PD will announce pretty much what we saw on that list prior to E3, no more, no less. Damage is improved but not much, only race cars, no roll over, no undercarriage, no tyre marks. Worse still, only about a third of the car models are premium, 100% GT5 quality. But. KY will come on stage an promise that within 3 year cycle he will perfect damage on all cars with patches to make it more realistic than any other driving game on the market today with rollover and while modelling the undercarriage on every car in the game at premium standard. KY also promises that with free DLC, he will also make all the car models premium within that time. KY also confirms his development team has found new ways to get more power from the PS3 and as a result he's very sure he will be able to incorporate improved particle effects with fantastic looking tyre smoke and tyre marks. Last but not least KY mentions that PD are also looking at simulating tyre deformation. We are then greeted with a playable demo of GT5 with what it has so far and a phenomenal looking concept trailer of what's to come in the next 3 years.

I would wait 3 years and then buy it. I just don't trust KY on past experience for one. I am not buying an unfinished product for two. Besides I would spend my precius gaming time on FM3 instead and look at GT5 Spec 7 in 2012 when it's actually got the features that I want and it looks more like a finished game. But what if in another 2-3 years FM4 is even better, by now sporting nearly 1000 cars, more tracks, more upgrades, more features demanded by community and even more polish. Looking at past experience with FM and considering FM3 engine doesn't need much more work, we're just looking at mostly content. FM4 could gain a lot of content in 2-3 years.

The above was purely hypothetical, and it's just one of the many scenarios that may play out in the next few days...

The best part is when people say they prefer Forza 2 physics over GT5P. I can say Forza 3 is going to be hard to beat in the physics department.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

The best part is when people say they prefer Forza 2 physics over GT5P. I can say Forza 3 is going to be hard to beat in the physics department.

Yes, there's a few shorcomings in FM3: the lack of gear shifting animations, moveable cockpit POV, gear shifting animations, backfire with flame and sound, 3D animated pit crew showing fully simulated pit stop and automatic aero parts on cars like the McLaren SLR, Bugatti Veyron, Porsche Carrera GT... Not to mention only 8 cars on track. But physics simulation in FM so far has been king. Plus I think FM3 is much closer to a game driving enthusiasts want, than GT5 is. But then we don't know all about GT5 just yet. We'll see GT5 features soon enough.

 

[paskowitz]

Yes, there's a few shorcomings: the lack of gear shifting animations, moveable cockpit POV, gear shifting animations, backfire with flame and sound, 3D animated pit crew showing fully simulated pit stop and automatic aero parts on cars like the McLaren SLR, Bugatti Veyron, Porsche Carrera GT... Not to mention only 8 cars on track. But physics simulation in FM so far has been king. Plus I think FM3 is much closer to a game driving enthusiasts want than GT5 is. But then we don't know all about GT5 just yet. We'll see GT5 features soon enough.

I just cannot agree with that. Sure I have not played FM3 but I have played FM2 (and GT5p obviously). I find almost all cars in FM2 way way way too easy to drive. Sure GT5p has some messed up physics at low speed (burnouts etc) but otherwise I find it to be just about bang on. The only ammo I have for my argument is that GT5p' top stock car lap times are closer to real life lap times than FM2. There are so many things each game does wrong and neither can match the level of simulation of PC titles such as LFS and rFactors F1 mods (which are used by real F1 drivers).

 

[chepu]

Yes, there's a few shorcomings: the lack of gear shifting animations, moveable cockpit POV, gear shifting animations, backfire with flame and sound, 3D animated pit crew showing fully simulated pit stop and automatic aero parts on cars like the McLaren SLR, Bugatti Veyron, Porsche Carrera GT... Not to mention only 8 cars on track. But physics simulation in FM so far has been king. Plus I think FM3 is much closer to a game driving enthusiasts want than GT5 is. But then we don't know all about GT5 just yet. We'll see GT5 features soon enough.

I Have Tried only Forza Motorsport 1, so i cant talk about the 2, and i Have to say that Forza Does well in the Car Enthusiast Things, because it Covers the whole Car Scenario, Adjust it, Tune it, Design It, Race It, Share It, but i just dont know why always i see a Gran Turismo and Knowing it doesnt has all that stuff I Still love it, I just Keep Drooling and playing it...and thats something i Simply Dont Feel with Forza andSomehow this Yamauchi Guy make us Feel in love with the game, No matter what you cant do and how bad the Cars sound

So Best Hopes for TGS, its like the Last Chance of this year i Believe, and i hope GT5 Delivers, and Delivers Well 👍

 

[Cobra_NZ]

I just cannot agree with that. Sure I have not played FM3 but I have played FM2 (and GT5P obviously). I find almost all cars in FM2 way way way too easy to drive...

FM2 cars easy to handle? That's just not right. Firstly the XBOX360 controller has far better analogue triggers than the PS3 controller so that helps with control. Secondly the ABS, TCS and STM assists in FM2 are far better that GT5P and are only there to get the the casual drivers through the game. Just because the assists make the driving easier, it doesn't mean the physics are easy. The whole point of FM1 and FM2 was to appeal to all types of players.

Don't believe me? Right now go and buy a Ferrari 430 in FM2 and GT5P turn all assists off and see which car is easier to control. Even with the superior controller on the XBOX360 you'll be more likely to loose control when driving on the limit in FM2 than GT5P, and yes I mean GT5P in simulation settings. Believe me, I've tested all the cars that were in both games in the same fashion and FM2 was always the more difficult one. It's sometimes easier to drive in FM2 once you buy the right upgrades and tune a car to perfection, but not always. We can't do that in GT5P so we can't compare that aspect.

EDIT: I mean driving the car on the limit, drive the Ferrari 430 against equal opposion and on hardest AI setting. Cruising around the track by yourself won't exactly bring you to the limit.

 

[CodeRedR51]

But physics simulation in FM so far has been king. Plus I think FM3 is much closer to a game driving enthusiasts want than GT5 is.

I have played both Forza1 and Forza2 and can honestly say that I prefer GT handling physics over Forza anytime. I'm certainly a driving enthusiast and I want GT5!

Ninja edit: So, why exactly are you on this forum? I smell a troll...

 

[Cobra_NZ]

I have played both Forza1 and Forza2 and can honestly say that I prefer GT handling physics over Forza anytime. I'm certainly a driving enthusiast and I want GT5!

Sure, I've heard of you before, the perfect driver that thinks realistic simulated damage or collisions is overrated because you never crash. You're a driving enthusiast alright.

Seriously, not all driving enthusiasts think like you. Overall opinion is that FM3 packs a lot more features that driving enthusiasts want, so far. Hopefully GT5 will change that. I certainly hope so.👍

EDIT: What you're smelling is the rubbish coming out of your mouth, you'll have a tough time getting away from that. Good job with the "Troll" insult, very intelligent...

 

[DonZonda]

Well I hope just they add finally a better sense of speed ( every sim I played felt alot faster than GT ) and take away that static slow gameplay. The physics are already really good. But the rest.... I think PD is more on the work with graphics and perfect modelled courses and cars than bringing some new improvement to the gameplay. Why they show us always this fake trailers , with an awesome sense of speed , shaky cameras crazy engine sounds but the gameplay is exaclty the opposite of that? I mean KY drives alot of cars and fast cars so he knows how it feels driving a fast car at high speeds , but why you dont feel in GT driving a fast car...

 

[CodeRedR51]

Sure, I've heard of you before, the perfect driver that thinks realistic simulated damage or collisions is overrated because you never crash. You're a driving enthusiast alright.

I'm just saying that I don't need damage in a game to have fun. If the game has it, so be it. Who cares how realistic it is. If the game does not have it, so what. Won't hurt my feelings. (unlike some people on here)

If YOU were a true driving enthusiast, you would care more about how the cars perform on the track, and not what they should look like after a bump with the wall.👎

 

[Tenacious D]

The best part is when people say they prefer Forza 2 physics over GT5P. I can say Forza 3 is going to be hard to beat in the physics department.

We'll have to see on that, because F2 didn't feel like a PC sim, while Prologue does. I know that having a proper Logitech DFGT wheel helps, but not that much.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

You know DonZonda, you make a good point. Strange thing is that GT4 seemed to give me better sense of speed on some courses than GT5P is. Might just be my imagination though and the courses in GT5P. It probably will be beter in GT5.👍

 

[DonZonda]

You know DonZonda, you make a good point. Strange thing is that GT4 seemed to give a better sense of speed on some courses than GT5P is. Might just be my imagination though and the courses in GT5P. It probably will be beter in GT5.👍

I just played GT4 on Suzuka and it felt faster to me than in GT5P.

I dont know why, I hope they will fix that issue

 

[Cobra_NZ]

We'll have to see on that, because F2 didn't feel like a PC sim, while Prologue does. I know that having a proper Logitech DFGT wheel helps, but not that much.

So far in my life I've had 11 cars and tuned and drove 3 of them on the track. Had a rollover on track, Ford XR2 and a spin out in real life Ford XR3i. My tuned cars were BMW E30 325i M-Tech, Honda Del Sol VTI and now the Subaru B4 RSK Blitzen. These are FR, FF and AWD cars, so I have a pretty good idea of how cars drive, especially on the limit. I'm not comparing it to PC simulators, I'm comparing it to my real life experiences. And when I say my real life experiences, I've never even as much dented any of my tuner cars, but I drove them like I was possessed. Not now though, with the wife and daughter and all. Though I still have my moments up the heavenly mountain roads in NZ. They're even more fun downhill.

Everything about FM2, FM1 not so much, was very intuitive to me. The cars behaved as I expected them to do, especially on the limit.👍

EDIT: The BMW was supercharged, the Honda NA tuned and the Subaru is Turbo. I'm trying to experience something different every time I buy another car. Next, I'm planning to buy an old muscle car to have for the weekends, a V8 will pretty much male me feel like I've had a good run at motoring in my life so far.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

I just played GT4 on Suzuka and it felt faster to me than in GT5P.

I dont know why, I hope they will fix that issue

I haven't played GT4 in a long time, gave it to a friend when I left for NZ. But I guess my memory serves me right...

I'm sure they will fix it for GT5.

 

[paskowitz]

FM2 cars easy to handle? That's just not right. Firstly the XBOX360 controller has far better analogue triggers than the PS3 controller so that helps with control. Secondly the ABS, TCS and STM assists in FM2 are far better that GT5P and are only there to get the the casual drivers through the game. Just because the assists make the driving easier, it doesn't mean the physics are easy. The whole point of FM1 and FM2 was to appeal to all types of players.

Don't believe me? Right now go and buy a Ferrari 360 in FM2 and GT5P turn all assists off and see which car is easier to control. Even with the superior controller on the XBOX360 you'll be more likely to loose control when driving on the limit in FM2 than GT5P, and yes I mean GT5P in simulation settings. Believe me, I've tested all the cars that were in both games in the same fashion and FM2 was always the more difficult one. It's sometimes easier to drive in FM2 once you buy the right upgrades and tune a car to perfection, but not always. We can't do that in GT5P so we can't say how easy cars would be to drive once they are tuned.

EDIT: I mean driving the car on the limit, drive the Ferrari 360 against equal opposion and on hardest AI setting. Cruising around the track by yourself won't exactly bring you to the limit.

Ok first off GT5p does not have the Ferrari 360... I think you meant the F430. And if you give the 430 S1 tires (What PD recommends) in GT5p w/no aids and you give the F430 in FM3 stock tires with no aids, and then race both at their limits at say Suzuka, you will find that not only is the GT5p F430 harder to drive but its lap times are closer to that of real world laptimes than the car in FM2. Third, the 360's controller "superiority" as far as sensitivity is concerned is almost imperceptible. Third, if you really care about realism you would use a wheel, thus making controllers completely not part of the discussion. Both the Fanatec and Logitech wheels are about even. The truth is both games have "respectable" physics engines and both have their own respective flaws but both are far from the level of realism of other "sims" and even further away from real life. Using real life as a bench mark though (disregarding actual physics) GT5p is closer than FM2 (at that is backed up by numbers and cold hard facts). And that is all I have to say and will say on the matter.

 

[Devedander]

kaz gave us gran turismo. what have you done lately?

Really? You pulled that one out? wow... just wow!

I hope you never criticize a movie until you win an Oscar.

I hope you never criticize a sports player until you are in the major leagues.

I hope you never call out a politician until you have at least governed a state.

Where do people come up with the idea that you have to have done it better than someone else before you can express your opinion? I thought we left that mindset on the playgrounds?

I'm saying you should let the game makers make the game they want to make, in nobody elses vision but their own. If you dont like it then too bad. If there is a bug, it can get patched. If you think the game should have been done differently then make your own game. Complaining about a game before it is released in the hopes of changing the game to how YOU want it is selfish and immature and rude IMO. After a game comes out, you have every right to not like it, but to think "if I had complained more before the release this might be better", is ridiculous. If a developer wants your opinion, they will ask for it. Betas happen all the time.

I would think that letting the game makers know what we want so they can do it best the first time would be better...

I mean apparently KY is waiting to hear feedback from the fans as to just how much damage they actually want... well it seems pretty obvious that as long as you leave a switch to turn off the damage option, the vast majority want it... but no, it's better to do it this way, leave it out or only partially in and then let your fans get into big drawn out arguments over whether it's important or not or whether it's ok to be dissapointed in it because that's how PD wants it to be etc... then have to work to patch it in later...

No I don't think that's a good way to do it.

Game makers can do whatever they way, but at the end of the day, we pay their salaries, so it's in everyones best interest that they get as much feedback and get it right from the gates as much as possible.

 

[Leadfoot53]

I'm just saying that I don't need damage in a game to have fun. If the game has it, so be it. Who cares how realistic it is. If the game does not have it, so what. Won't hurt my feelings. (unlike some people on here)

If YOU were a true driving enthusiast, you would care more about how the cars perform on the track, and not what they should look like after a bump with the wall.👎

Let me rephrase yourself... IF YOU were a true driving enthusiast, you would care about the cars so much, you would be worried about bumping the wall and messing up your car's performance...