Sound Off! Getting More People to Like Small Cars and Vintage Cars in GT

[vintageracer]

Now back to the topic, I'm another person who really enjoys the older 'vintage' cars and I wish there would have been more of them. I often wish for a game that just featured 'classic' cars. I would love to see more pre-60's cars in the next GT (my secret wish is that finally a game will feature the BMW 507...)

I actually started a 2nd game where I tried to only use cars made before 1990 (I really wanted to go before 1980, but I only got about 35% complete). It was fun tuning the cars to outrun the new ones, but you've got to have tons of mods to make them competitive.

I'd like to see more "rivals" from the same time period, and be able to pick my opponents. Could you imagine taking your `68 Datsun 510 (Bluebird) out to face a `70 (non-turbo) BMW 2002 and `67 Alfa GTV? At the very least I'd like to be able to face off against cars the same age, rather than a Suzuki Cappuchino or Mazda AZ-1.

 

[JohnBM01]

Time to do some reading. Here is an excerpt which is the direct counterattack to what we are discussing here. It is an excerpt by EGM (Electronic Gaming Monthly) on Forza Motorsport, and the excerpt I will use has to do with the topic of the fact that every car is raceable and such:

"Better than Gran Turismo 4. I figured I’d write that when I reviewed Gran Turismo 5 one day, but this is Forza Motorsport, Microsoft’s homage to the greatest driving sim around...And while Forza can’t match GT4’s huge roster of cars, it has more of the cars you actually want to drive, including—finally—Porsches and Ferraris, from classics (’73 Porsche 911 RS, Ferrari 250 GTO) to current street spec cars to race-prepared models." - Demian, of Electronic Gaming Monthly's July 2005 magazine

( Source: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdegm/is_200507/ai_n13637215 )

I want to save the rest of the article for another thread, but for now, let's focus in on this. It's obvious that few care about racing things like Daihatsus and such, it doesn't mean they have no place in a game like GT. Now, let's examine this one phrase mentioned:

"...while Forza can't match GT4's huge roster of cars, it has more of the cars you actually want to drive..."

That's been the focal point of this thread. Few will actually admit to being fond of smaller cars over larger sports cars. Does it mean, however, that the small cars are taking away all the fun? When I played arcade demos of Forza Motorsport, I will admit that I've raced some of the faster machines, but never found too many smaller cars to work with. "Actually want to drive?" Are you kidding me, player? This is a case of "if you want that, you can have that." I sometimes think there can be a few more races to tailor to Kei cars and superminis. I'm not just talking about the one-make races with them either. Something can really be done to make these races better appreciative among car fans and GT gamers. Is it something PD will have to do about it, or is it something WE as racing fans have to do about small cars? What do you think?

 

[Badsight]

part of what makes the sub 100 Hp cars boring to race is the poor slow speed physics in GT

i mean even if you have only 30 Hp - In Real Life that is more than enough to chirp road tyres when you drop the clutch - in GT 30 Hp can be defeated from moving by just a slight gradient . . . .

this should be entirely fixed in GT5 for sure!

 

[MustangSVT]

That's been the focal point of this thread. Few will actually admit to being fond of smaller cars over larger sports cars. Does it mean, however, that the small cars are taking away all the fun? When I played arcade demos of Forza Motorsport, I will admit that I've raced some of the faster machines, but never found too many smaller cars to work with. "Actually want to drive?" Are you kidding me, player? This is a case of "if you want that, you can have that." I sometimes think there can be a few more races to tailor to Kei cars and superminis. I'm not just talking about the one-make races with them either. Something can really be done to make these races better appreciative among car fans and GT gamers. Is it something PD will have to do about it, or is it something WE as racing fans have to do about small cars? What do you think?

This depends on your personal opinion, whether you want smaller cars, or whether you want more of the supercars.

I am one of the latter, and I am completely fond of sportscars and supercars alone. The reason is if I'm playing a racing game, I want to drive cars that I am not able to see in real person everyday and that I probably will never get a chance to drive anyway. This and it's a personal opinion of course. For this reason (and other gameplay reasons), I find Forza a much better game than GT4, better supercar selection IMO (and I'm not talking strictly Ferrari & Porsche, I mean Koenigsegg, Lingenfelter, and some others).

Because I am so fond of sportscars and supercars in these games like the old NFS games where you only had a really good selection of sport/supercars, I am probably gonna like PGR3 a whole lot more than I did GT4. While GT4 is great and I'm sure the next GT will be great, I've found the PGR series to be more fun than GT or Forza, and even though I'm really big sim lover on PC, PGR is just too much and it offers probably the best selection of sports cars and supercars (the third one).

 

[driftomania]

Personally, I believe that slower cars, such as the old Mini Cooper, or other "small" or vintage car, are the staple to the Gran Turismo series. Slower cars allow you to have a PERFECT LINE, almost every time. I find it stupid when a person takes an incredibly fast car, such as F1 or Minolta, on a track they dont know if theyre life depended on it. So what if you can get a lap time 40 seconds faster; a perfect lap will look 40x better than bouncing off the walls. Many people on this forum don't drive yet, so you wont have the feeling of taking out the car that you own, onto Nordenschlife, or Tsukuba, and comparing it to the car you would like to buy. I really enjoy the game, and i love to drive the fast cars, but without slow cars, this game would be incomplete.

 

[Cosmic]

Kei cars are fun as hell to drive in any GT game! Gives us more Kei cars PD!

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm kind of in the middle. I find the small cars too dinky, and the vintage and supercars to be slippery and tempramental, like a bad girlfriend. So I prefer cars in the sub-300hp range (except for Ferraris). Give me a 240SX hatch, a Supra, an RX-7, an MR2, a 300ZX or a Skyline any day. Or an F355 Challenge.

However, despite my prefs and loves, I want GT5 to have more of everything, including small cars, vintage cars, and... dare I say it, trucks, so that everyone has something that makes them happy. And supercars. I definitely want the Big Three at some point, if they aren't in at launch.

 

[Force-Feedback]

However, despite my prefs and loves, I want GT5 to have more of everything, including small cars, vintage cars, and... dare I say it, trucks, so that everyone has something that makes them happy. And supercars. I definitely want the Big Three at some point, if they aren't in at launch.

I agree with you there,

GT5 should have more of everything rather than get rid of a few things and add something different in its place - so everyone gets a bit of something they like...

 

[JohnBM01]

This quote has been circling in my head:

"...if you can't make it up the hill at Midfield [Raceway], you deserve to be shot." -(anonymous GTPlanet member)

Probably one of the meanest low-powered cars not in GT is the Mazda RX-3. I remember this in "Tokyo Xtreme Racer Zero." The cars in TXR Zero were identifiable by their engine codes. This car had some nice modifications which made it look like a mini muscle car (give or take the touring car racing wing you could give it in that game). Mazda has its own low-powered old car in the game called the Mazda Carol 360 (or something like that). I must say it's a cute little car. Say "boring and insignificant" all you want, but this is just one other example of low-powered goodness. You probably hate Fiat for their 500 series of classics. There's the 500F, 500L, and the 500R in GT4. All of which are well under 100hp. In fact, the 500R is the most powerful at about 22hp. But keep in mind that these cars were competitive in their day. And here's a segway into the "no used cars" crap argument. GT2 had the 500R as one of a few models you could actually buy from the start of the game. Only Japanese cars were used autos in that game. Your starting 10K Cr in GT2 could get you the only car not in the Japanese used car lot that you can acually afford. Cars are automatically given more horsepower once you buy them (can anyone remember when you bought the 76hp Mini Cooper 1275K race car, all to *magically* have 236hp?), so I'm sure you'll have enough horsepower to mess with for your buck. The key here is that each car is different and feels different. A usual generalization is that we're playing a racing game, so we always need the fastest cars to fully enjoy a game. Not true. People get mad at me simply because I'm not like every other person who only cares about sports cars. Not every car has speed demon intact. You want low power and great speeds? Here's a suggestion: do some go-kart racing. It can range between some cheap go-karts at some family fun center all the way up to FIA go-kart racing like with Martin Hines' wonderful Zip racing kart. I usually called the Honda S800 a front-engined go-kart. That's because it's just as fun to race around a track despite being severely underpowered. I suggest you go out and earn that car in GT4. Take it around a track in low-speed racing events, and I think you may like it as much as I did.

Have I mentioned that Motorland is perhaps one of the best original circuits PD has came up with? That's because the course is great for all kinds of automobiles. The AI do kind of drive pretty dumb on Track Meet events with fast cars, but the course is just a wonderful one for small and large cars alike. It was also the first track I raced in Tourist Trophy just to get a feel for motorcycle handling. Nothing is wrong with small cars. Some are pretty top-heavy, though. But it isn't like those big-ass SUVs where you have top heaviness coupled with great power. Some of those Kei cars are even FWD or 4WD. That gives you a little extra control around courses since they aren't designed to be speed demons. I would really suggest PD go out and look for some more models of the ultimate small car- the Mini Cooper. I did miss the classic Minis, but I do respect the newer BMW Minis. Many of the newer Minis are pushing 200+ hp. BMW involvement or not, you have to love these small automobiles. God bless John Cooper. The Mini Cooper was the ultimate case of "size doesn't matter." You don't fully appreciate automobiles if you don't have this car as one of your all-time favorites. It didn't have a V12. It didn't push 200 mph or 300 kph. But it remained a fun and functional car that even made as a nice club racer. It even dominated the rally scene and some touring car races. If you want maybe the best small car not from Japan, your wish is Mini's command with their British baby.

Let me also suggest that appreciating small cars and underpowered vintage machinery was a work in progress for me. I got myself to appreciating small cars for what they are instead of hating them for what they are not. I made the transistion over time. Will you? Carry on with discussion if you have something positive to contribute.

 

[Wolfe]

I couldn't agree more. There are too many people around these days who have absolutely no appreciation for older cars and classics, and can't understand that small = light, and light = good. Most of my favorite cars are from the 60's-80's.

Sometimes I wonder what other people think of the car selection in Sega GT Online for the XBOX -- I loved how there were so many unique and not-often-seen classic cars in that game.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Honestly John, you can't make people like or appreciate anything. it's a fact of life, and a good one. everybody likes different things, and variety IS the spice of life. some people would be perfectly happy to eliminate different species of animals, while others die to protect them. cars are no different. People should stop taking offense to people not appreciating tiny, ultra-low powered cars, just as people who don't like them, should not be offended by those who do.

And if someone says "those cars have no place on a racetrack" the have a legitimate point. Just as when you say "those cars were raced in their day" you also have a legitimate point. who is right? you both are, the only one who's wrong is he who fails to recognize the other sides POV

 

[puppeteer]

And if someone says "those cars have no place on a racetrack" the have a legitimate point. Just as when you say "those cars were raced in their day" you also have a legitimate point. who is right? you both are, the only one who's wrong is he who fails to recognize the other sides POV

hmm... well one is a fact, and the other is a biased personal opinion..
they arnt really equally valid at all.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

The people who love the little cars will always love the little cars, and those who don't will always dislike them. Very little can be done to sway them. Driving kei cars is like Marmite, you either love it or you don't.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

hmm... well one is a fact, and the other is a biased personal opinion..
they arnt really equally valid at all.

except the concept of racing is to go fast. those cars can't really do that now can they? therefore they kind of defy the point, no?

 

[Wolfe]

except the concept of racing is to go fast. those cars can't really do that now can they? therefore they kind of defy the point, no?

Actually, the concept of racing is to go faster than the other people that you're racing against. Otherwise, we would only have F1, because any slower form of racing "wouldn't be racing." We also wouldn't have Track and Field, because humans are quite obviously slower than a car.

Different classes and types of racing impose different limits on the cars that participate, and cars like the Mini Cooper are great if the racing series is limited to small cars with small engines.

 

[puppeteer]

except the concept of racing is to go fast. those cars can't really do that now can they? therefore they kind of defy the point, no?

um.... no
If that were the case then salt lake racing would rule all..
but as we all know there is a little more to racing than just going fast..

+ Gran Turismo isnt just a racing game

the time i enjoy most playing GT or TT is solo round the ring.. when I get home from work dont necessarily feel like the stress of a close nose bleed race, sometimes i just want to empty my mind and look for the next curve.. and quite often thats more fun in a Cateram 7 than a LM racer..

 

[JohnBM01]

Thank you for pointing out the most common misconception about racing- it's all about being fast. Pirelli Tires had a saying that applies to more than just racing:

"Power is nothing without control." -Pirelli Tires slogan

You have to be fast, but you also need to control that fast. Don't just think it's straight empty road like it was a drag strip. No. If all cars are at the same speed and are essentially the same car, it comes down to control. Try go-kart racing. Every kart is usually different at family fun centers and at some serious karting venues. And they don't have a place on the track? Well how do you explain Kei cars in rally racing? There is a such thing, and groups like Suzuki and Daihatsu are proven champions with small cars. I'm not talking about just the Suzuki Escudo (which clearly isn't a small car), either.

Don't give me the presumption that these cars aren't meant for the race track. Like I have to own a Camaro SS or a Corvette to enjoy racing. Kei cars are only not fit for the track if you consider anything less than 150hp as a non-race car. People do have a knack of taking cars which are not otherwise fit for racing and then MAKING them into race cars. Look at Spoon Sports with their modifying of the Honda Fit/Jazz/City. They turned it into their own race car. It makes good power for a small car. See for yourself in GT4. Most powerful small car in GT4 is the Mitsubishi CZ-3 Tarmac Concept Rally Car with 230-something horses. Just don't tell me that they aren't fit for racing. What, are we making a big mistake when we purchase GT games because we're *forced to race* Kei cars? If that's the case, then ignore GT games. I don't want to be closed-minded. I don't want to believe that I only need sports cars or compacts to enjoy racing. Did anyone say that the Mini Cooper wasn't fit to win races back in the day? Maybe the American sub-13 second car owners of the muscle car days, but not the Europeans or the Japanese. Stop telling me that Kei cars have no place in a racing game. Race cars don't have to be F1 or Le Mans ready. Some of the Kei car types are just out there to give Kei cars more performance than they are initially capable of. And hell, they'd be capable of almost nothing except great gas mileage and a better ability to "floor it" into most corners. The common statement is that any car you don't like doesn't have to be crappy. That's why you tune the car! Hopefully, it could be made better. I got to liking my Mugen Beat in GT2 when I gave it some nice tuning. It was pretty fun whipping it around corners against other Keis. But just don't tell me that they have no place on a race track. That's like saying that little boys have no place on a baseball field or an American football stadium. It's ludicrous. I don't like this increased emphasis on speed all the time. That's why so many illegal street racing fatalities happen- dumb drivers in fast (or tuned-up) cars and trucks. Yet it's the same dumb drivers who want fast, ultra-cool cars when they don't even know how to drive a low-powered (according to "boring car" statistics) automobile. Some just aren't very good drivers and are used to speed all the time. But you're going to need to get used to slower cars unless you are that closed-minded. Are we making the worldwide automobile community sad because we aren't racing big cars with big power? If your answer is yes, then this thread needs to help you realize that size doesn't matter and that speed isn't everything. If your answer is no, then you are a true citizen of the world and of the world of automobiles. Just wish more people can be like you on this issue.

I know I can't make the world like these cars more. So that's why I'm asking for opinions as to how we can TRY to get people to like (or at least respect) these automobiles more in Gran Turismo, and even in real life if you want to push the envelope. I'm awaiting your ideas to continue this discussion.

Before you make a reply, give yourself a literature break and check these sites I've lined up in this thread:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/3173 (some small cars, otherwise something for everyone)
http://www.japanoid.com/faq.html
http://www.mini7.co.uk/

These are three sites with some Kei car info in case you're interested.

 

[Wolfe]

We seem to be pushing more for the small cars, now, but I think that increasing awareness of and appreciation for older cars and classics (80's and older) is just as important, if not moreso.

This lack of appreciation can be found most often among fans of Japanese cars, largely because Japanese manufacturers don't have much of a history to speak of -- Japan got a late start on the automobile business compared to america and Europe, and only started gaining attention in the late 70's and through the 80's, after the oil crisis. Then, the Japanese sportscars that we all know and love had their heyday from around 1990 up until each major player was discontinued, and the only popular models that are any older are previous generations of those same sportscars, with one notable exception being the AE86 Toyota Corolla.

Fans of European cars and american cars rarely exhibit this ignorance, it seems. Any person who wants to call themselves an american muscle fan better damned well be familiar with and appreciate the muscle cars of the 60's and 70's -- it's considered heresy not to do so. Also, many European car fans appreciate the more "ethereal" qualities of a car -- such as soul, character, pedigree, etc. -- and believe that many older cars, especially those with racing histories, possess these ethereal qualities in spades.

That said, I have a feeling that if this drift craze continues to wear on, it may be easier than we think to convert some of the naive -- after all, many cars from the 1970's and earlier are RWD, even if the more modern models are FWD. However, I don't know what else there is that can be done to increase appreciation for fine classics.

 

[puppeteer]

I think a big part of it comes down to presentation..
for people to appreciate classic cars they have to be given some sort of context for them..

at the moment they are presented in an equal pegging to all the more modern cars, (apart from being under the legendary menu) which just makes them looks weak and old..

what i would like to see would be a short top-gear style documentary that explains a little about about where it came from and why its significant. this could be done as a choreographed sequence using the game engine combined with some stills and a professional voice over..

something like this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVnT58M-a50&search=top gear

now obviously you arnt going to get the wit and charm of clarkson for 100 mini-docs out of a japanese developer (at least not after translation) but you could get the same cool camera work and the same bits of info across to give you context..
anyone remember the GT2 intro movie? the one that was half classic footage...

looking the GT5 TGS video one can imagine lots of smooth sexy shots moving around a nice high detail studio lit classic car model..

If you watch top gear you can see how its all about presentation, they can make you believe any car is pretty much the coolest car ever, and then, with a flick of the camera, and a switch in tone explain that its an absolute bomb..
If we want people to get excited about classics in GT then they need to be presented in an exciting an compelling way, at the moment all the cars are shown on a 1950s showroom turntable with a HP rating and weight..

 

[Tenacious D]

I was going to say something like Puppeteer's post. The GT2 intro movie was awesome! The Cardigans livened it up quite a bit with an excellent music track. Also, GT2 started its demos with a bunch of classic muscle cars. I believe it's the only Gran Turismo demo in which the featured car, a Mustang, didn't win, strange.

Put an opening movie segment as well as a demo of vintage and small Kei cars in the GT5/Vision/HD roster and make it look dramatic and sexy, and more people will appreciate it.

 

[JohnBM01]

No offense, but I don't think we can make Keis and classics (well, at least not Kei/mini cars) sexy. My initial intent was normally about low-powered classics and not so much stuff like muscle cars or Jensen Healey Interceptor Mk. III's (kind of like a British muscle car, right). Latest classic car I unlocked was a beautiful Mercedes-Benz 300SL. Yes, that gull-winged beauty of a car. Only other classic car I got in GT4 was the (Texas' own!) Chaparral 2J Race Car. That damn thing is wicked quick and has some pretty nice handling. You can do 100 only in first gear. Wicked sick.

Wolfe2x7 has a great insight on this issue. I usually like to think that Japan has done pretty well with automobiles even during the "Bubble Economy" they've had to endure during the time us Americans were enjoying our muscle cars. Well, my grandparents at least. I usually thought Europeans were not as unforgiving with all sorts of automobiles. After all, the automobile was born in Europe even before 1886. The year 1880s was when Daimler came off with the first-ever gas-powered automobile. Daimler would even come out with perhpas the first vehicle to seat more than two people. The first powerplant was a steam engine by a Frenchman named Nicolas Joseph Cugnot back in 1970. It wouldn't be until 1865 when America had its own steam car called the Roper Steam Carriage. But in this day where power is just as important as the car itself, we don't really care much about vintage cars because the only vintage cars many of us care about are the high-horsepowered cars. I have a small proposal: I would be interested in seeing some more beautiful European classics. I can picture myself piloting a beautiful Jaguar D-Type around some track in GT5. A good number of European models would be sweet. And as for the Japanese, I still think they've done quite well even with a little help from U.S. loans and stuff. They needed to do whatever it took to re-establish their economy back then. Now look at them. It's basically the freaking technology giant in the world. One show on (then) TechTV said that the world would end up as a big Japan (former TechTV show "Wired for Sex").

I think a lot can be done to boost the appeal of vintage cars and mini/Kei cars regardless. But most of this depends on what you'd suggest to remedy this semi-disrespect of small cars and vintage cars.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

The larger tracks can reduce the fun of a kei car. When one lap takes 10+ minutes, or if the car maxes out a quarter of the way through a straight, it takes the fun factor out of the cars. GT5 needs more courses like Motorland, Autumn Ring Mini, and Beginner's Course. Tiny tracks for tiny cars!

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I agree with 3WD, PD needs to add more smaller tracks to compensate those smaller cars like Autumn Ring Mini, Motorland Road Course, and Motor Sports Land. In fact Trial Mountain and Grand Valley East are still concidered as "large" race tracks to Kei and Super Vintage (cars from 1890-1949) cars. (:

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, my "sexy" comment actually meant to say "fun," and if Polyphony matches smaller, lower powered cars up with smaller, twistier tracks, they'll be much more fun. I.E, "sexy."

 

[LeadSlead#2]

let's put it like this: would people want to watch 40-year old couch potatoes foot-race? no. but they'll watch 24-year old olympic stars run.

Frankly, I understand it could be fun to race a kei car IRL. - But I wouldnt watch them race, I'd change the channel.
GT4 doesnt give that Real-Life feeling necessary to make these cars fun.
could I have fun in a Kei car? Yes. would I have more fun in a NSX? Absolutly

 

[Rogue Ssv]

REally? I would watch Fiat 500s race.
I mean, I wouldnt watch some old luxoboat like a Bugatti Royale or a Chrysler Airflow race, but honestly, could you resist watching a race between iconic cars like Citroen SMs and Fiat 500s or BMW Isettas or Shelby Cobras or the Ford Model T?
I couldnt.
Its about racing and loving the most iconic cars in history.
I got a BMW 8 series in GT2. It totally sucked at racing. But did I sell it? No! I kept it just because it was sexy and iconic and I loved it. Same with the Skyline GTR LM road car.
And do you honestly think you'll have more fun in an NSX than a Citroen sM or Fiat 500 or original Mini Cooper?
I wouldnt.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well.... lookit, some of us are like Maverick in Top Gun. We're fidgety when we're not going Mach 2 with our helmets melting. Give Maverick a WWII P-51 Mustang or Supermarine Spitfire, or even a Korean War era F-86 Saber and he would appreciate it for a quick solo flight. Then he'd be hankering for his F-14D again.

We all have our limits, where we go, "Okay, stampeding hamsters are faster than this." I want to at least be going 100mph at the end of a straight myself, and I prefer a modern sports suspension. So my happy low end are Civics and Passats.

So I'm one of the guys who will go pretty far down the performance range, and I'll race all the cars Polyphony sets before me, but the dinky guys, trucks and SUVs, I'll just race to get them out of the way.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

No offense Rogue, but your 12. and you've never driven.
Yes, driving an NSX would be much more fun for me, or a Civic type R, any modern car with a sport interest, would be much more entertaining for me to drive, than an old, 60hp car. that doesnt mean I wouldnt enjoy driving one of them, but like Tenacious D said, a quick spin, then I want speed again.

Contrary to how everyone trys to make it sounds with their exaggerations of LMP cars, I don't like the "race" cars. I much prefer stock and tuned sport coupes and supercars and such. from Civic's, to Subaru's, to a Peugeot, back to a Camaro, I like these cars. And I don't need to go 150mph in every straight, I just need enough get-up that I don't fall asleep waiting for the next curve on the track.
And, contrary to many opinions, while I like tiny tracks, they bore me too, simply because I'm constantly turning.
Some may say I only appreciate few aspects of racing, I challange that, and say I appreciate ALL aspects equally, acceleration, speed, braking, handling, I like slow turns and fast ones - But I much prefer a balance of all these, instead of just one at a time.

Besides, If I wasnt disagreeing, who would? then this thread would die.

 

[Tenacious D]

What Lead Slead said.

The racecars are awesome, and you gotta have those LMP, F1a and JGTC cars. And I have a weakness for the Big Three, love that Ferrari 355 Challenge.

But what really gets my pulse pounding are the sports cars. Stock, lightly modded, or hopped up to 250-350hp, especially with bodykits and paint jobs. I must need to join the SCCA at some point because this is deep in my genes. And hopefully Gran Turismo 5 will feed the need much more than GT4 did.

 

[Wolfe]

Wait, so if neither of you abhor the slower cars, can respect and accept their existence in the game, and simply prefer driving faster cars more often, then why do you place yourselves on the "anti small/slow car" side of this issue?

From what it seems like, here, you guys are just as appreciative of classics and small cars as we are. You just can't stand driving them as often.