Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered
- Thread starter FoRiZon
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- Austria
What would you guys think if PD and Remus are making a partnership for the sound design and put Remus exhaust into GT7?
would this be possible?
sorry for my bad english
http://www.remus.eu/forschung-entwicklung/?___store=en&___from_store=de
would this be possible?
sorry for my bad english
http://www.remus.eu/forschung-entwicklung/?___store=en&___from_store=de
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
Yes I think the discussion is all here. PD thinks the magic comes only through an high end microphone behind a Dynapack because of the logic that good results comes only through super expensive hardware. Good samples are important but not everything.
It's like when you laser scan a track. You require some expensive equipment to do that. But once you have the data you still need to BUILD the track from scratch.
It will be easier though with a 3d guide telling you where the stuff need to be placed but there's still an art work required from the designer.Another important thing sound designers need to focus on is "off throttle sound". I rarely hear good off throttle sound in sim racing, and even more rarely I hear realistic revs increasing while downshifting.
In supercars like Ferrari or Lamborghini when you downshift the engine revs increase in a dynamic way and really contribute to the symphony of the car.
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- 9,232
- Solid Gone
- MeanElf
Sorry Toko, that sounds like the current trend for hate has been going for 15 years - I'm fairly sure that's only been a recent thing comparatively.
mister dog
(Banned)
- 8,396
- Spain
- misterdog
- misterdog7
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
Alright I'm rested and ready to talk rubbish now.
I understand where Kaz is coming from with the whole sound thing. In terms of the Dynapack, though it's more convenient than a rolling road dyno, it's hard to lug around with it on planes and all of that rubbish. With lack of staff, that's also a problem but I think rather some fresh new minds are needed. However I'm gonna try ask someone who's quite into Sound Engineering about the matter. More boffins would be great then again too many cooks can spoil the broth. Their method of emission I think is good but it needs some polish, also to take into consideration what people have mentioned like Wind Noise, Anti Lag etc
It's not like they've given up on the whole issue but are rather stumped on a solution that works and works properly. There's still many problems to overcome. When people talk and say "Oh but this and that game did it perfectly", look at it this way, these 'other' titles have only a fraction of cars to deal with compared to the 1200 cars that PD has to deal with, on top of that, what the 'other' exceed in with sound lack in other areas. Hence why I said in an earlier post that it would be better for PD to cut their losses with the Standards, model what they can, take suggestions into consideration and have 600+- premium cars to deal with and each car having an Identity rather than just being a number. Some will say "Oh yeah? How come Forza could manage?" .Yeah Forza is a good contender to dispute this, I can't lie about about that.
I rate what PD should do is broaden their relationship with the respective car manufacturers and encourage them to use Dynapacks making it easier for PD to record audio plus the minds that made the car can advise. Not to mention there's plenty of heavy sound engineers that understand the complexity engine and exhaust audio from the car manufacturers.
As far as outsourcing goes I believe there's no shame in asking others for help, so long as you acknowledge them when credit comes by. If memory serves, with DriveClubs sounds, manufacturers like Mercedes Benz even asked Evolution for their samples, unexpected and no shame in that there is it?
Even asking for help from budding designers and engineers, I think it's ok as it probably was an option long ago to begin with. Also, it gives chances for these people getting into the industry to grow and learn.
Lastly, I can't stand the hate and negativity even though Kaz himself has acknowledged that there's a problem with sounds. Even though the question has been answered, he explained what has been done, what needs to be done and issues to overcome, even asking people of whom are interested to help if they want to, a job opportunity! Yet plenty behave like PD has given up on sounds and say "Screw GT"
So now it's just a matter of figuring out solutions to the issues.
I understand where Kaz is coming from with the whole sound thing. In terms of the Dynapack, though it's more convenient than a rolling road dyno, it's hard to lug around with it on planes and all of that rubbish. With lack of staff, that's also a problem but I think rather some fresh new minds are needed. However I'm gonna try ask someone who's quite into Sound Engineering about the matter. More boffins would be great then again too many cooks can spoil the broth. Their method of emission I think is good but it needs some polish, also to take into consideration what people have mentioned like Wind Noise, Anti Lag etc
It's not like they've given up on the whole issue but are rather stumped on a solution that works and works properly. There's still many problems to overcome. When people talk and say "Oh but this and that game did it perfectly", look at it this way, these 'other' titles have only a fraction of cars to deal with compared to the 1200 cars that PD has to deal with, on top of that, what the 'other' exceed in with sound lack in other areas. Hence why I said in an earlier post that it would be better for PD to cut their losses with the Standards, model what they can, take suggestions into consideration and have 600+- premium cars to deal with and each car having an Identity rather than just being a number. Some will say "Oh yeah? How come Forza could manage?" .Yeah Forza is a good contender to dispute this, I can't lie about about that.
I rate what PD should do is broaden their relationship with the respective car manufacturers and encourage them to use Dynapacks making it easier for PD to record audio plus the minds that made the car can advise. Not to mention there's plenty of heavy sound engineers that understand the complexity engine and exhaust audio from the car manufacturers.
As far as outsourcing goes I believe there's no shame in asking others for help, so long as you acknowledge them when credit comes by. If memory serves, with DriveClubs sounds, manufacturers like Mercedes Benz even asked Evolution for their samples, unexpected and no shame in that there is it?
Even asking for help from budding designers and engineers, I think it's ok as it probably was an option long ago to begin with. Also, it gives chances for these people getting into the industry to grow and learn.
Lastly, I can't stand the hate and negativity even though Kaz himself has acknowledged that there's a problem with sounds. Even though the question has been answered, he explained what has been done, what needs to be done and issues to overcome, even asking people of whom are interested to help if they want to, a job opportunity! Yet plenty behave like PD has given up on sounds and say "Screw GT"
So now it's just a matter of figuring out solutions to the issues.
- 8,722
A few choice quotes:
I've said before that the "dynamic range problem", as I call it, is only half fixed by offering a dynamic range option (in the form of a level limiter / compressor): you need a switchable mixing scheme as well, in order to balance out potential spikes before said limiter and keep everything close together in the mix. There are psychoacoustic considerations to follow in achieving a full solution, and getting that into the game would help with adding even more sources at some future point, because then you have a way to know which ones you can "switch off" with minimal impact.
It's more sources the game desperately needs.
Throw in the mystery of the Red Bull and Senna cars, and things get a little more hazy; why no mention of these specifically improved sounds? All things considered, I think it's clear: he's teasing us again!
This started with GT5 Prologue, and was the start of their new approach to recreating sounds in the game: simulation. Never mind recordings, this part is very important no matter where you get your sounds from, and it'll really shine once the sounds themselves are improved. He missed the part about correct transmission delay and atmospheric attenuation, though.
This is dynamic range compression, also present since GT5 Prologue. It was tweaked in GT5 and the default, low dynamic range setting (living room) caused dramatic level changes when loud cars or tyres drowned out the player car's engine sounds.
I've said before that the "dynamic range problem", as I call it, is only half fixed by offering a dynamic range option (in the form of a level limiter / compressor): you need a switchable mixing scheme as well, in order to balance out potential spikes before said limiter and keep everything close together in the mix. There are psychoacoustic considerations to follow in achieving a full solution, and getting that into the game would help with adding even more sources at some future point, because then you have a way to know which ones you can "switch off" with minimal impact.
It's more sources the game desperately needs.
He put this in the part about recording cars, but really there's little left to learn on that front. This is about the previous point:
That's where you need to unravel the mysteries.
Throw in the mystery of the Red Bull and Senna cars, and things get a little more hazy; why no mention of these specifically improved sounds? All things considered, I think it's clear: he's teasing us again!
- 4,382
Anybody up for an unofficial internet nick name then? "Kaz Runaround".
Yes I think the discussion is all here. PD thinks the magic comes only through an high end microphone behind a Dynapack because of the logic that good results comes only through super expensive hardware. Good samples are important but not everything.
It's like when you laser scan a track. You require some expensive equipment to do that. But once you have the data you still need to BUILD the track from scratch.
Another important thing sound designers need to focus on is "off throttle sound". I rarely hear good off throttle sound in sim racing, and even more rarely I hear realistic revs increasing while downshifting.
In supercars like Ferrari or Lamborghini when you downshift the engine revs increase in a dynamic way and really contribute to the symphony of the car.
Gosh, you've nailed this good! 👍
There are still SO many games that lack this today. FM's effect seemed nice at first, but now I want more. I want REAL car sounds coming out of a damn game!
If GT gets this aspect right, I'm eating my hat all the way round, and taking at least a year off completely from work and other obligations!
If devs can push for 1080p at 60 fps, they can certainly level up and start taking sound seriously. I still think there is a stark divide between how good racing games look today and how they sound.
Great points, all of them hit home.
I'm not on the screw GT boat BTW. Kaz has admitted it, so that's a good start.
For God sakes, I just hope he revolutionizes sound design the way he did with physics and graphics. It is time now. He must exhaust every approach in the book, not just rush out to get a quick fix and hope people won't notice. If GT fails to hit the mark again, it may be doomed for good.
A few choice quotes:
This started with GT5 Prologue, and was the start of their new approach to recreating sounds in the game: simulation. Never mind recordings, this part is very important no matter where you get your sounds from, and it'll really shine once the sounds themselves are improved. He missed the part about correct transmission delay and atmospheric attenuation, though.
This is dynamic range compression, also present since GT5 Prologue. It was tweaked in GT5 and the default, low dynamic range setting (living room) caused dramatic level changes when loud cars or tyres drowned out the player car's engine sounds.
I've said before that the "dynamic range problem", as I call it, is only half fixed by offering a dynamic range option (in the form of a level limiter / compressor): you need a switchable mixing scheme as well, in order to balance out potential spikes before said limiter and keep everything close together in the mix. There are psychoacoustic considerations to follow in achieving a full solution, and getting that into the game would help with adding even more sources at some future point, because then you have a way to know which ones you can "switch off" with minimal impact.
It's more sources the game desperately needs.
He put this in the part about recording cars, but really there's little left to learn on that front. This is about the previous point:
That's where you need to unravel the mysteries.
Throw in the mystery of the Red Bull and Senna cars, and things get a little more hazy; why no mention of these specifically improved sounds? All things considered, I think it's clear: he's teasing us again!
Have you offered your "services" to PD yet?
From the latest article "polyphony-digital-looks-to-hire-sound-engineers-for-gran-turismo":
"In the first two posts, he discussed how the sound capturing process for the games has evolved over the years"
Uhhh...whaathh!? Evolved?? Oh man, this pisses me off a wee bit!
Edit: Was playing FM4 today after a little break... can't believe how unbelievably good the cars sound from cockpit view on an X360, a console that's allegedly on it's last legs.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Rightfully or wrongfully, based on Kaz's own vague statements in the past, we figured they were way beyond where they appear to be now. Saying they can't transport equipment or find staff is lame. This is 2014 not 1995, the entire world is at their disposal via the internet. If this were a problem that needed solving in my company and that's what my mid-level management told me, they'd be demoted or looking for new jobs, because they'd obviously be in over their heads.
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
Remember that lugging around heavy equipment is expensive and tedious. Though PD has a massive budget it doesn't seem logical and cost effective. Lack of staff also is valid, valid because think of this: 10 people or so for a sound team to model sound and have it to world class standard is a daunting task for 1200 cars. Do the math, 10 people to model that many cars will take far too long and people will be impatient. More engineers, scattered in different areas, having good ideas implemented means that not only can they get the sounds everyone wants but get them out sooner.
What PD should do is figure out which areas of the world have the most cars in a single area that they need to model with Dynapacks readily available and go on with plans from there. For example, USA (Particularly LA) has plenty of cars and places with Dynapacks for PD to work with, along with Europe and heck even home in Japan. Organize with people, have a set plan and Bob's your uncle.
Lest we not forget that along the way you'll meet some interesting characters who will aid in the journey for better sounds.
- 4,382
Why can't they LOWER the car count intially, get sounds right for each one of them, and gradually make them available through DLC?
Getting accurate audio impressions for 1200 cars... sorry, that just isn't practical no matter how you look at it. A lot of cars WILL end up getting the royal screw job.
- 8,722
It's a problem that has to be tackled one way or another, preferably sooner rather than later. Ballooning size and scope are affecting all games at the moment, and there's a lot of research going on to find ways to deal with its impact on certain real-world workflows and virtual-world systems etc.
- 10,956
- Canada
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Where there's a will there's a way On top of that, 60+% of the cars are Japanese so no excuse there. I'm guessing most of the other street cars outside of the real classics and race cars are also available. Surely the streets of Japan are crawling with Jags, Lambo's, Ferrari's and the like. Let's be conservative and estimate only 75% of the cars are in Japan. Of the other 25% surely many of them are near the required equipment. Also many of the sounds can be simply copied and pasted onto other cars, they've had no trouble doing that in the past. This so-called "heavy equipment" issue isn't an issue at all, it's just an excuse and a lame one at that.
Lack of staff isn't valid either, since they are in charge of their own hiring. 1200 cars is only an obstacle if you look at them as a whole. They can only be recorded and worked on one at a time same as anything else. Start with the first one and move forward.
A reasonable solution but recording the 75%+ of cars in the game readily available domestically should be a decent starting point and more than enough to keep them busy.
- 1,167
- Paradera
- SDSPOWER01
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
Granted many of the cars are in Japan, however even Evolution Studios for DriveClub had an issue as well with travelling to different places to record audio. Why? Because a Pagani Huayra isn't just available when you snap your fingers. Despite being based in the UK where you can find pretty much any car, still some travelling was involved. I highly doubt that they lugged around with dynos and what not.
Yes PD is in charge of its own hiring but they're making it known now that they need more sound engineers. Now that it's known, actions will be taken. Remember 1200 is a lot of cars but how quickly do you want your sounds? More people, more stuff gets done and gets done sooner
It's not as easy as it looks I believe. There's more to it.
- 1,167
- Paradera
- SDSPOWER01
- 280
- Toronto, ON
- lator-illa
A few choice quotes:
This started with GT5 Prologue, and was the start of their new approach to recreating sounds in the game: simulation. Never mind recordings, this part is very important no matter where you get your sounds from, and it'll really shine once the sounds themselves are improved. He missed the part about correct transmission delay and atmospheric attenuation, though.
This is dynamic range compression, also present since GT5 Prologue. It was tweaked in GT5 and the default, low dynamic range setting (living room) caused dramatic level changes when loud cars or tyres drowned out the player car's engine sounds.
I've said before that the "dynamic range problem", as I call it, is only half fixed by offering a dynamic range option (in the form of a level limiter / compressor): you need a switchable mixing scheme as well, in order to balance out potential spikes before said limiter and keep everything close together in the mix. There are psychoacoustic considerations to follow in achieving a full solution, and getting that into the game would help with adding even more sources at some future point, because then you have a way to know which ones you can "switch off" with minimal impact.
It's more sources the game desperately needs.
He put this in the part about recording cars, but really there's little left to learn on that front. This is about the previous point:
That's where you need to unravel the mysteries.
Throw in the mystery of the Red Bull and Senna cars, and things get a little more hazy; why no mention of these specifically improved sounds? All things considered, I think it's clear: he's teasing us again!
So just to clarify your point, Kaz is hiring more staff to try and tackle this new method you've been speaking of, correct?
After re-reading the whole article, it does make more sense what Kaz is saying. From what i'm understanding, he's not lacking man-power in terms of recording samples etc., but actual engineers who can 'make' sound. This ties in with your new method theory.
That said, I haven't seen you enthusiastic about having an opportunity to work for PD. So do you already work for them? lol
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
It can help but can only do so much though. It's up to PD now really since they've found a way to record and now just need the engineers.
On a side note, With all this talk of sound engineers I think there's also gonna be an increase in Car Modelers as well, heck all the other fields really. Just to keep GT on par
- 1,492
- Germany
- KiroKai
- KiroKai
I keep hearing the 1200cars term thrown around.
600 of therm are RB2x powered Skylines.....
200 are MX5's...
100 other Mazda Rotaries
another 50 are BRZ, GT-86, FRS
SO really they're only left 155 individual cars to record.....
So much this. If you look at real numbers you'll end up with about 500 individual sounds to record. If the same engine is used in several cars, the sound will be similar and it should be enough to record once. Plus all the unnecessary duplicates, if it's the same model several times they can reuse the sound.
You act like PD are heroes for having 1,200 cars. No they aren't. The car list is filled with illogical decisions and duplicates to boost total count. And they already reuse sound samples across cars, they go as far as putting the 5.2 V10 sound of the Gallardo on every modern V12 Lamborghini in the game. Not to mention the shared custom exhaust samples, there's only like 100 of these samples in the game, spread across all 1,200 cars, especially racing cars that only have custom exhausts. Kaz pretty much said the Dynapack is their current, up to date method and cars in the game already use sounds recorded this way, so they already have samples, they just apparently can't use them properly.
- 10,956
- Canada
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
600+- Premiums, that I believe is the magic number. As I've said many times but I think some are sick of me saying it
- 10,956
- Canada
Who cares if some folks are sick of hearing it, I say keep saying it because that's actually a reasonable number, not 1,200 which isn't even a real number due to those 2 last gen assets.600+- Premiums, that I believe is the magic number. As I've said many times but I think some are sick of me saying it
- 4,382
I think PD is really stubborn in a way that they think the ONLY way to beat Forza is by plummeting it in terms of car count and graphics.
Well, it works for some gamers. Not seasoned simmers and folks that are truly passionate about driving and motor sport.
I think Forza's approach to somewhat starting from scratch was a very good decision. If PD can only look past graphics and high car count as their first priority, I believe great things can be accomplished.
They have plenty of assets as far as visuals go... they ought to be focusing on sounds primarily, then physics.. and eventually graphics.
Discussions and speculation is great.. but I think PD is going to do what makes sense to them. Codies or T10 they are not. Especially Codies!
- 4,933
- Bulgaria
From the Editorial Department: We are currently recruiting Sound Engineers and Recording Engineers. Please email:recruit_sound@polyphony.co.jp.
The choice of content, style and format of any resume’s are left to the applicant.
Please note that applications can only be accepted in Japanese or English, and those who have passed the preliminary evaluation by email will be contacted by our staff.
The choice of content, style and format of any resume’s are left to the applicant.
Please note that applications can only be accepted in Japanese or English, and those who have passed the preliminary evaluation by email will be contacted by our staff.
- 4,992
- Nowhere special
- SweetLilPoppet
- SweetLilPoppet
Actually I think these people are more inclined towards GT.
Also, I don't think GT needs to be compared to forza and grid every five minutes to bash it to pieces. After all, do remember it is superior to them in several ways
Putting it out there that I like all three of these games, but I don't like to hear gt being relentlessly pissed on without its good points being considered at all
Hmmm, I really can't see 1200 (actually it will be like 1400) cars having perfect new engine sounds.
This should be a big reason for PD to say goodbye to the standards, otherwise this "wonderful new sound production method" still cannot fully resurrect the entire audio presentation of gt7.
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