Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered

[Johnnypenso]

Also, I don't think GT needs to be compared to forza and grid every five minutes to bash it to pieces. After all, do remember it is superior to them in several ways

Putting it out there that I like all three of these games, but I don't like to hear gt being relentlessly pissed on without its good points being considered at all

Kind of ironic that you selectively quoted a post and then go on about GT being relentlessly pissed on, when the very post you quoted said this:

If PD can only look past graphics and high car count as their first priority <<<acknowledges that graphics and car count are a high priority for PD...and they are.

They have plenty of assets as far as visuals go... <<< acknowledges that they are doing a bang up job on the visuals which they are.

Discussions and speculation is great.. but I think PD is going to do what makes sense to them<<<acknowledges that PD is going to go their own way and blaze their own trail...which they have always done.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Kind of ironic that you selectively quoted a post and then go on about GT being relentlessly pissed on, when the very post you quoted said this:

Mostly graphics emphasised, there's still more good points to gt.

I think this is the second time I've been called out on this "selective quoting" business.

To explain, i do it to let the quoted user know which part of their post my post is aimed at. It is not used to twist their words, as you are apparently suggesting.

Also, yes my bad, @Speedster911 did include what I said he didn't. Sorry

 

[TayeezSA]

Anyone have good ideas on how turbo spool, blow off Valves, wastegates, drivetrains and Pops & Bangs from the exhaust be recorded? Or have like a generator thingy?

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Anyone have good ideas on how turbo spool, blow off Valves, wastegates, drivetrains and Pops & Bangs from the exhaust be recorded? Or have like a generator thingy?

I could be wrong but I would have thought that things like the BOV and turbo sounds could be recorded samples, as they don't vary in sound like the rpm of the engine, they just make one sound, but idk really

 

[Kenocar]

GT has crappy wastegate and spooling noises.


I want some transmission whine that follows my accelerator input.

 

[Griffith500]

So much this. If you look at real numbers you'll end up with about 500 individual sounds to record. If the same engine is used in several cars, the sound will be similar and it should be enough to record once. Plus all the unnecessary duplicates, if it's the same model several times they can reuse the sound.

You act like PD are heroes for having 1,200 cars. No they aren't. The car list is filled with illogical decisions and duplicates to boost total count. And they already reuse sound samples across cars, they go as far as putting the 5.2 V10 sound of the Gallardo on every modern V12 Lamborghini in the game. Not to mention the shared custom exhaust samples, there's only like 100 of these samples in the game, spread across all 1,200 cars, especially racing cars that only have custom exhausts. Kaz pretty much said the Dynapack is their current, up to date method and cars in the game already use sounds recorded this way, so they already have samples, they just apparently can't use them properly.

So wait, it's only 500 sounds to record, but 100 modified exhausts to go around (600 recordings now) aren't enough?

So just to clarify your point, Kaz is hiring more staff to try and tackle this new method you've been speaking of, correct?

After re-reading the whole article, it does make more sense what Kaz is saying. From what i'm understanding, he's not lacking man-power in terms of recording samples etc., but actual engineers who can 'make' sound. This ties in with your new method theory.

That said, I haven't seen you enthusiastic about having an opportunity to work for PD. So do you already work for them? lol

I think they're looking beyond their new method; it'll be some kind of extension to what already exists for GT7, or the next game (and beyond). I think it could be bespoke interior recordings as well as exterior, and as I mentioned in another thread, some way of equating the two for efficiency at run time.

As far as the new method is concerned, he might be wanting more people who understand the principles of deconstructing a sound and reassembling it from its components, but at a much lower (deeper) level than normally happens.

I don't do enthusiasm, by the way.

I could be wrong but I would have thought that things like the BOV and turbo sounds could be recorded samples, as they don't vary in sound like the rpm of the engine, they just make one sound, but idk really

That's entirely the wrong way to go about it in my opinion, because they absolutely do vary, in subtle ways that are linked with the operation of the engine. Of course, hundreds of professionals do it the way you describe, so idk either.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

So wait, it's only 500 sounds to record, but 100 modified exhausts to go around (600 recordings now) aren't enough?


I think they're looking beyond their new method; it'll be some kind of extension to what already exists for GT7, or the next game (and beyond). I think it could be bespoke interior recordings as well as exterior, and as I mentioned in another thread, some way of equating the two for efficiency at run time.

As far as the new method is concerned, he might be wanting more people who understand the principles of deconstructing a sound and reassembling it from its components, but at a much lower (deeper) level than normally happens.

I don't do enthusiasm, by the way.



That's entirely the wrong way to go about it in my opinion, because they absolutely do vary, in subtle ways that are linked with the operation of the engine. Of course, hundreds of professionals do it the way you describe, so idk either.

Fair enough

 

[KiroKai]

So wait, it's only 500 sounds to record, but 100 modified exhausts to go around (600 recordings now) aren't enough?

No. None of those 100, maybe 200 custom exhaust sounds seem to be a real recorded sound but rather generic sounds to be reused as many times as possible. Most of them sound terrible, don't fit the car they are available on, and/or have been in the series since GT4. I think they need to be regarded completely different than the recorded stock exhaust sounds.

 

[TayeezSA]

No. None of those 100, maybe 200 custom exhaust sounds seem to be a real recorded sound but rather generic sounds to be reused as many times as possible. Most of them sound terrible, don't fit the car they are available on, and/or have been in the series since GT4. I think they need to be regarded completely different than the recorded stock exhaust sounds.

The thing is if PD can find a Sound Engineer that can make and manipulate sound then with sports exhausts etc, the original sample can just be altered in order to save on recording times

 

[KiroKai]

The thing is if PD can find a Sound Engineer that can make and manipulate sound then with sports exhausts etc, the original sample can just be altered in order to save on recording times

Yes, that's what I'm hoping GT would do in the future. Just drop those custom samples and use realistic alterations of the original engine sound.

 

[Griffith500]

No. None of those 100, maybe 200 custom exhaust sounds seem to be a real recorded sound but rather generic sounds to be reused as many times as possible. Most of them sound terrible, don't fit the car they are available on, and/or have been in the series since GT4. I think they need to be regarded completely different than the recorded stock exhaust sounds.

They are recordings.

Yes, that's what I'm hoping GT would do in the future. Just drop those custom samples and use realistic alterations of the original engine sound.

How? Is anyone else doing it? I don't think anyone is, so the question is why not?

And the answer is: if you can make those kinds of "realistic" changes, you don't need the recordings in the first place, except as references.

 

[KiroKai]

They are recordings.

How would you know? And how would you know they actually recorded cars? There's a lot of strange custom exhaust sounds that don't sound like a car at all. There's some that do, but a lot don't, or they sound partially car-ish and when you rev them up they become crap.

How? Is anyone else doing it? I don't think anyone is, so the question is why not?

And the answer is: if you can make those kinds of "realistic" changes, you don't need the recordings in the first place, except as references.

Why does it matter if others do? If you mean 'how' as in 'how would they change sounds to achieve realistic alterations', why would I know, I'm not claiming any knowledge about sound production. But I've been listening to GT4, GT5 and GT6 for years, as well as other games and real cars, both in person and on records.

And about your final sentence, no, I don't think so at all. Just because you can work with and edit given material doesn't mean you can create the basic material in the first place, not at all.

 

[Griffith500]

How would you know? And how would you know they actually recorded cars? There's a lot of strange custom exhaust sounds that don't sound like a car at all. There's some that do, but a lot don't, or they sound partially car-ish and when you rev them up they become crap.

They are recordings. Consider the alternative (and at least offer one, since you claim they're not recordings; what are they if not recordings?).

What's happened more recently is that samples intended as part of a set (made mostly for GT2) have been separated and mixed with samples from other sets. That's how you get Frankenstein creations like the Nissan VGT / 2020 thing (yes, and one or two of the race-prepped GT-Rs; same sound).

Remember there's a substantial sound update on the horizon, despite the call to arms.

Why does it matter if others do? If you mean 'how' as in 'how would they change sounds to achieve realistic alterations', why would I know, I'm not claiming any knowledge about sound production. But I've been listening to GT4, GT5 and GT6 for years, as well as other games and real cars, both in person and on records.

So...? How does that mean you know that editing stock samples is better than recording modified ones? And if you're saying it's easier to do the editing instead of going to the trouble of recording, you really ought to know what is involved in that "editing" in order to make that judgment, hadn't you?

T10 have recorded modified cars, mostly for reference purposes it would seem since it makes no odds from Forza 3 onwards, and they are unable to make any realistic alterations of the stock recordings they have when things are changed on the cars in-game (any changes in sound are the result of sample changes). Why have they chosen that method (collecting modified recordings, despite not being able to use them yet for coverage reasons) over the "easier" way you suggest?

And about your final sentence, no, I don't think so at all. Just because you can work with and edit given material doesn't mean you can create the basic material in the first place, not at all.

Well, I've done both, and I can tell you it absolutely is true in this specific instance. Maybe you should clarify what you mean by "realistic alterations".

Don't get me wrong, I could see it working as an interim solution, but it's really not less work than recording (and you'd be better off with those recordings as references, regardless). In developing methods to alter samples for things like changes to the exhaust tract, you really do unlock several key techniques that allow you to generate sounds from nothing, which is where we should be headed anyway.

 

[KiroKai]

As I've said before, they sound like sounds they created from scratch to me, put together to make them sound like cars. As I've also said, I have no knowledge of sound production and if those samples go as far back as GT2 they might indeed be recordings created with antique methods. The statement about me listening to stuff was to back up the way GT's custom samples sound to me, compared to actual cars, and why they seem completely made up to me. Kaz' statement about how sound engineers can't "make" proper sounds from scratch nowadays anymore would fit this too.

I didn't mean to exclude the option of recording modified exhaust notes for custom exhausts in-game, but real exhausts don't work as simply as GT's do. There's many exhausts available for each car and their sound varies a lot. Sure you could create basic 'sports'/'race'/'in between' categories but you'd end up finding at least 5 different sounding modified exhaust options in each category, for any popular, common car. Looking up what products are available for every car, sorting them into categories, picking specific ones over others, locating one (if there's even any available) and recording it, all sounds like a lot of effort, basically to provide options for a car barely anyone will care about because 95% of players will still simply slap the racing exhaust on their car anyway because 'max power yo'. And all that's just the exhaust noise...

The way PD dealt with sound samples so far (overrecycling everything over and over) I don't come to expect more than improved stock car sounds recorded from the actual cars, and some formulas applied to each stage of exhaust upgrade, based on that sound. That's all I meant by "realistic alterations", alterations (more grunt, less restricted, what do I know) to make the sound a car/engine comes with more exciting. Basically the same a real exhaust manufacturer would do, only without the hassle of actually creating a real, better than stock exhaust system like a manufacturer tries to do.

 

[chengman]

This probably seems like a bad idea but here's a tip! Swap engine sounds! The Alfa Romeo 8C uses a similar engine note to the Maserati Gran Turismo. A simple swap will fix the issue that has been bugging me since GT5. Same issue could be fixed with the Aventador. Audi R8 V10 racing exhaust toned down a notch would sound like a proper Aventador exhaust. Would be happy if this happened.

 

[Griffith500]

As I've said before, they sound like sounds they created from scratch to me, put together to make them sound like cars. As I've also said, I have no knowledge of sound production and if those samples go as far back as GT2 they might indeed be recordings created with antique methods. The statement about me listening to stuff was to back up the way GT's custom samples sound to me, compared to actual cars, and why they seem completely made up to me. Kaz' statement about how sound engineers can't "make" proper sounds from scratch nowadays anymore would fit this too.

What you're hearing is a disconnect caused by a disembodied exhaust sound, separated from its engine and intake sound, applied to a car that never had that exhaust sound in the first place. It's that dissonance in your mind causing the effect of "unreal" sounds. It happens to me, too, but I only have to think back to cars I've heard in real life, and remember that specific components of that sound are weird on their own. I have the benefit of being able to generate and hence audition the different sources separately and in any combination, and others have had the benefit of making recordings of the separate sources (which I've also listened to; I'd recommend you do the same).

A little bit of experience with that "decomposition" goes a long way, and if GT had intake sounds, many of the exhaust sounds would make more sense (even if they'd likely still be falsely attributed).

I didn't mean to exclude the option of recording modified exhaust notes for custom exhausts in-game, but real exhausts don't work as simply as GT's do. There's many exhausts available for each car and their sound varies a lot. Sure you could create basic 'sports'/'race'/'in between' categories but you'd end up finding at least 5 different sounding modified exhaust options in each category, for any popular, common car. Looking up what products are available for every car, sorting them into categories, picking specific ones over others, locating one (if there's even any available) and recording it, all sounds like a lot of effort, basically to provide options for a car barely anyone will care about because 95% of players will still simply slap the racing exhaust on their car anyway because 'max power yo'. And all that's just the exhaust noise...

This is precisely the problem I was bringing up. You're saying that rather than attempt to cover this variation with recordings (which is indeed a massive task), it should just be ignored. Unless, of course, a magical method of editing existing sounds to cover that range is developed.

My point is that any such magical method can and will give you those variations without samples. I've designed and built both such systems myself, and I'm not the only one who has (e.g. sonory and its fully synthetic samples). The irony is that the scratch built sounds are better than the edited samples, especially because of the finer control available.

Imagine a brand new way of generating sounds that is able to compensate for such minute changes, according to the player's will. The major problem there is providing the control interfaces for the player, much as the challenge with the new course maker appears to be making a control interface (which is why Kaz said we'd get a pre-made one first).

The way PD dealt with sound samples so far (overrecycling everything over and over) I don't come to expect more than improved stock car sounds recorded from the actual cars, and some formulas applied to each stage of exhaust upgrade, based on that sound. That's all I meant by "realistic alterations", alterations (more grunt, less restricted, what do I know) to make the sound a car/engine comes with more exciting. Basically the same a real exhaust manufacturer would do, only without the hassle of actually creating a real, better than stock exhaust system like a manufacturer tries to do.

The perpetual recycling is indicative of the length of time PD have been working towards their new method (instead of making new samples), and avoiding the massive recording task. Now they need to do both more recording and work on the new sounds, because accurate stock sounds will always need references to compare against. Interiors are a major challenge, still, and I'm not aware of a decent "magical method" in that case - that's yet more recording in any case, either for research, or for direct use in the game in some way.

Your concept of "realistic alterations" does not hold up to the physics of the situation, and it's the physics you need to start with in order to find the magic. Unless you think some junior sound designer's memory of an event, applied through graphic equalisation and compression, plus distortion, is enough to constitute "realistic". This is what Kaz wants, a deeper, physically-based understanding, because that's the level he wants the game sounds to operate at.

Manufacturers do not just tweak recordings to make their cars sound different. They have a well established workflow, starting with simulation (the physics of the situation), then more simulation, followed by physical prototyping and testing / measurement, feeding back into simulation again etc. The key step, in the case of games, is simulation; and the standard for "measurement" comes from recordings of the real thing to compare against what the game is spitting out.

Any deviations in the sound from stock by changing parts don't need to be validated to the same degree, because, using the magic method, the changes will broadly be accurate, and the vast range of available products means that that breadth or deviation in sound is already out there and will be expected / accepted in the game.

 

[TayeezSA]

I just remembered this episode, towards the end is the amazing bit. Easy way to record blowoff valves now then?

 

[Griffith500]

I just remembered this episode, towards the end is the amazing bit. Easy way to record blowoff valves now then?

The sound of partial blowdown is pretty uninteresting, it's just a "ffftt" sound, like letting some air out of your tyres. What makes it interesting is all the resonances, and other effects (like reverse flow through the compressor), and you can't get those by recording the blow-off valve on its own, or even by recording several blow-off vales venting on one single system. Notice the difference with the "NA BOV" on the car, vs. the bicycle, purely because of the difference in construction of the "reservoir" and choice of venting point.

This is one of those areas where generating the sounds in a particular way will automatically lend itself to blow-off sounds that react to the specific system in question, because the resonances that affect the blow-off sound also affect the intake sound (the blow-off valve's state - how open it is - affects those resonances, too, but that can be incorporated).

Then you've got the wastegate to deal with. Since it's a part of boost control, and is effectively an exhaust bypass valve, it has an effect on the overall sound of a turbo engine. That is to say, fitting different (rating) wastegates, or just mapping them differently, or even removing / welding them, will affect the sound. A physically-based generation method will account for that, too. There's no limit to how subtle you can go, if you really wanted to.

 

[VBR]

@Griffith500 - You're hired! When can you start?

 

[TayeezSA]

The sound of partial blowdown is pretty uninteresting, it's just a "ffftt" sound, like letting some air out of your tyres. What makes it interesting is all the resonances, and other effects (like reverse flow through the compressor), and you can't get those by recording the blow-off valve on its own, or even by recording several blow-off vales venting on one single system. Notice the difference with the "NA BOV" on the car, vs. the bicycle, purely because of the difference in construction of the "reservoir" and choice of venting point.

This is one of those areas where generating the sounds in a particular way will automatically lend itself to blow-off sounds that react to the specific system in question, because the resonances that affect the blow-off sound also affect the intake sound (the blow-off valve's state - how open it is - affects those resonances, too, but that can be incorporated).

Then you've got the wastegate to deal with. Since it's a part of boost control, and is effectively an exhaust bypass valve, it has an effect on the overall sound of a turbo engine. That is to say, fitting different (rating) wastegates, or just mapping them differently, or even removing / welding them, will affect the sound. A physically-based generation method will account for that, too. There's no limit to how subtle you can go, if you really wanted to.

Though the system MCM made can inspire to make something better. For their purposes it just had to prove that you can put a Blow off Valve on an NA car... Don't ever do that by the way.... For the purposes of PD however, you can upgrade that system to take different blow off valves and simulate the pressures, resonances, etc

Thinking out the box would be great now

 

[Griffith500]

Though the system MCM made can inspire to make something better. For their purposes it just had to prove that you can put a Blow off Valve on an NA car... Don't ever do that by the way.... For the purposes of PD however, you can upgrade that system to take different blow off valves and simulate the pressures, resonances, etc

Thinking out the box would be great now

Well, the sound would primarily be of the system, not the valve, is my point. You'd have to build lots of systems to get different sounds, and then it's not clear how you're supposed to use those sounds, nor what they'd represent. I'm sure it'd be fun, though!

 

[Tenacious D]

I think PD is really stubborn in a way that they think the ONLY way to beat Forza is by plummeting it in terms of car count and graphics.

Well, it works for some gamers. Not seasoned simmers and folks that are truly passionate about driving and motor sport.

...I think Forza's approach to somewhat starting from scratch was a very good decision.

I think you mucked up what you meant to say, and I still think you're wrong. You're assuming that people passionate about driving and motor sport just need a handful of cars to make them happy, which is undoubtedly why you said what you did about Forza below. I'm thinking the exact opposite, that car nuts are happier when they have lots of cars to experience and tinker with. The real world reflects this. Why do you think that manufacturers don't produce one basic model of each type - economy car, sports car, sedan, utility car, SUV, truck - rather than a number of them? Or even focus on a few of types to nail down marketshare?

There have been quite a few posts over the years of those glad to find their car in a Gran Turismo game, and not in another. And really, for quite a few years, you didn't have many alternatives but Forza for a realistic racer with street cars. One of the big draws of Gran Turismo since the beginning was the wealth of cars available, which was why GT2 sold so well.

This point will always be a debate tpoic because there is merit on both sides. But when GT4 fans lamented a car not being included, then even in GT6 at times, just imagine the explosive reaction if they learn that the next GT would only have 200 cars or so. Forza 4 is still more popular than Forza 5 with its 500 some odd cars...

They have plenty of assets as far as visuals go... they ought to be focusing on sounds primarily, then physics.. and eventually graphics.

I really don't think many people agree with this. Otherwise, a lot of really great sounding arcade racers would sell at Gran Turismo levels. And a lot of great sounding sims too. Seriously, who buys a racer so they can listen to the sounds? And a sequel so they can listen to pretty much the same sounds?

I know that sound is important to a number of people here, but if it was such a hot button topic for millions of gamers, and Gran Turismo so ear bleedingly awful, GT5 wouldn't have sold at around 11 million copies. And that with millions of used copies swamping used bins.

 

[TayeezSA]

I think you mucked up what you meant to say, and I still think you're wrong. You're assuming that people passionate about driving and motor sport just need a handful of cars to make them happy, which is undoubtedly why you said what you did about Forza below. I'm thinking the exact opposite, that car nuts are happier when they have lots of cars to experience and tinker with. The real world reflects this. Why do you think that manufacturers don't produce one basic model of each type - economy car, sports car, sedan, utility car, SUV, truck - rather than a number of them? Or even focus on a few of types to nail down marketshare?

There have been quite a few posts over the years of those glad to find their car in a Gran Turismo game, and not in another. And really, for quite a few years, you didn't have many alternatives but Forza for a realistic racer with street cars. One of the big draws of Gran Turismo since the beginning was the wealth of cars available, which was why GT2 sold so well.

This point will always be a debate tpoic because there is merit on both sides. But when GT4 fans lamented a car not being included, then even in GT6 at times, just imagine the explosive reaction if they learn that the next GT would only have 200 cars or so. Forza 4 is still more popular than Forza 5 with its 500 some odd cars...


I really don't think many people agree with this. Otherwise, a lot of really great sounding arcade racers would sell at Gran Turismo levels. And a lot of great sounding sims too. Seriously, who buys a racer so they can listen to the sounds? And a sequel so they can listen to pretty much the same sounds?

I know that sound is important to a number of people here, but if it was such a hot button topic for millions of gamers, and Gran Turismo so ear bleedingly awful, GT5 wouldn't have sold at around 11 million copies. And that with millions of used copies swamping used bins.

But you have to admit though, having 600 cars is no small number. That's all premiums by the way. Like I've said before, I'd rather each car have an identity than just being a number within 1200. Have a good selection where each individual one has gotten the same equal love.

Car count is nice and all but that's not all the cars in the world in GT. I just want a good selection , once that's down then PD should just keep adding more at their own pace

 

[TayeezSA]

By the way I love PGR4's sounds, not to mention their lighting and weather . That's the game that really made me sit down and listen:



This was the only good one I could find of the Cossie but the OP decided to put music over the glorious sound



Last 3





That game had GREAT sound. It wasn't distorted, forced or generic. It was just good, ticked all the boxes in my books. Boxes being: accurate samples,Turbo Spool, Blow Off noise, as the rpm rises the sound intensifies, drivetrain noise, backfires pops and bangs, exhaust drone, road noise.... The whole shabaam! My only issue with PGR4s sounds is the lack of intense wind noise and docile induction noise.

GT should go in PGR4's sound direction.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think you mucked up what you meant to say, and I still think you're wrong. You're assuming that people passionate about driving and motor sport just need a handful of cars to make them happy, which is undoubtedly why you said what you did about Forza below. I'm thinking the exact opposite, that car nuts are happier when they have lots of cars to experience and tinker with. The real world reflects this. Why do you think that manufacturers don't produce one basic model of each type - economy car, sports car, sedan, utility car, SUV, truck - rather than a number of them? Or even focus on a few of types to nail down marketshare?

There have been quite a few posts over the years of those glad to find their car in a Gran Turismo game, and not in another. And really, for quite a few years, you didn't have many alternatives but Forza for a realistic racer with street cars. One of the big draws of Gran Turismo since the beginning was the wealth of cars available, which was why GT2 sold so well.

This point will always be a debate tpoic because there is merit on both sides. But when GT4 fans lamented a car not being included, then even in GT6 at times, just imagine the explosive reaction if they learn that the next GT would only have 200 cars or so. Forza 4 is still more popular than Forza 5 with its 500 some odd cars...


I really don't think many people agree with this. Otherwise, a lot of really great sounding arcade racers would sell at Gran Turismo levels. And a lot of great sounding sims too. Seriously, who buys a racer so they can listen to the sounds? And a sequel so they can listen to pretty much the same sounds?

I know that sound is important to a number of people here, but if it was such a hot button topic for millions of gamers, and Gran Turismo so ear bleedingly awful, GT5 wouldn't have sold at around 11 million copies. And that with millions of used copies swamping used bins.

Explain Gran Turismo 3 then. Gameplay triumphs car count any day, so long as there are enough cars to facilitate that gameplay. You only need a massive car count when the gameplay sucks, when the career mode sucks, when the AI sucks. If you're busy actually racing and competing, you don't have time to drive 100's of cars.

And since GT already has 350+ unique premiums, we're not talking about 75 cars here.

 

[Speedster911]

I think you mucked up what you meant to say, and I still think you're wrong. You're assuming that people passionate about driving and motor sport just need a handful of cars to make them happy, which is undoubtedly why you said what you did about Forza below. I'm thinking the exact opposite, that car nuts are happier when they have lots of cars to experience and tinker with. The real world reflects this. Why do you think that manufacturers don't produce one basic model of each type - economy car, sports car, sedan, utility car, SUV, truck - rather than a number of them? Or even focus on a few of types to nail down marketshare?

There have been quite a few posts over the years of those glad to find their car in a Gran Turismo game, and not in another. And really, for quite a few years, you didn't have many alternatives but Forza for a realistic racer with street cars. One of the big draws of Gran Turismo since the beginning was the wealth of cars available, which was why GT2 sold so well.

This point will always be a debate tpoic because there is merit on both sides. But when GT4 fans lamented a car not being included, then even in GT6 at times, just imagine the explosive reaction if they learn that the next GT would only have 200 cars or so. Forza 4 is still more popular than Forza 5 with its 500 some odd cars...


I really don't think many people agree with this. Otherwise, a lot of really great sounding arcade racers would sell at Gran Turismo levels. And a lot of great sounding sims too. Seriously, who buys a racer so they can listen to the sounds? And a sequel so they can listen to pretty much the same sounds?

I know that sound is important to a number of people here, but if it was such a hot button topic for millions of gamers, and Gran Turismo so ear bleedingly awful, GT5 wouldn't have sold at around 11 million copies. And that with millions of used copies swamping used bins.

BAD sounds do not decide sales. People who are happier with far less, and true/hardcore/loyal fans will continue to buy GT no matter how retarded the sounds are.

Kaz knows this, so he makes games with half-assed sound cos' he knows fans such as yourself would be happier with far less.

So no thank you. Moving on. I'll be looking forward to enjoying Forza and PCARS. 👍

By the way I love PGR4's sounds, not to mention their lighting and weather . That's the game that really made me sit down and listen:



This was the only good one I could find of the Cossie but the OP decided to put music over the glorious sound



Last 3





That game had GREAT sound. It wasn't distorted, forced or generic. It was just good, ticked all the boxes in my books. Boxes being: accurate samples,Turbo Spool, Blow Off noise, as the rpm rises the sound intensifies, drivetrain noise, backfires pops and bangs, exhaust drone, road noise.... The whole shabaam! My only issue with PGR4s sounds is the lack of intense wind noise and docile induction noise.

GT should go in PGR4's sound direction.

Oh wow... GT taking a direction similar to PGR4 would be such a treat.

But you have to admit though, having 600 cars is no small number. That's all premiums by the way. Like I've said before, I'd rather each car have an identity than just being a number within 1200. Have a good selection where each individual one has gotten the same equal love.

Car count is nice and all but that's not all the cars in the world in GT. I just want a good selection , once that's down then PD should just keep adding more at their own pace

Right. PD always seems to treat car count as a primary sales driving factor, which is true to some extent. But then quality gets muddied up in the process.

It's like they have some phobia starting fresh and starting small with GT7, just to redo the audio aspects and get them right.

 

[TayeezSA]

Explain Gran Turismo 3 then. Gameplay triumphs car count any day, so long as there are enough cars to facilitate that gameplay. You only need a massive car count when the gameplay sucks, when the career mode sucks, when the AI sucks. If you're busy actually racing and competing, you don't have time to drive 100's of cars.

And since GT already has 350+ unique premiums, we're not talking about 75 cars here.

Precisely why GT3 was a load of fun. Gameplay, gameplay and gameplay, can't stress that enough. Different events and disciplines for career, solid AI, polished visuals and sounds will make the game.

If GT was purely about car count then it wouldn't be Gran Turismo , it would just be "Counting Cars" or "Who Wins The Appendage Measuring Contest" rather than having substance to it.

Said it once and I'll say it again. 600 Premiums is the magic number and Bob's Your Uncle.

BAD sounds do not decide sales. People who are happier with far less, and true/hardcore/loyal fans will continue to buy GT no matter how retarded the sounds are.

Kaz knows this, so he makes games with half-assed sound cos' he knows fans such as yourself would be happier with far less.

So no thank you. Moving on. I'll be looking forward to enjoying Forza and PCARS. 👍

I'm a loyal GT fan but some change is needed. The Philosophies are good and all but I need substance and something that can compete with competition. True, BAD sounds have to go but I don't think Kaz is doing a half arsed job. Initiative is actually being taken so there can be improvements, we could be ending up with another COD if Kaz wasn't doing this. Right now though, I want solid solutions to these problems

 

[Speedster911]

Precisely why GT3 was a load of fun. Gameplay, gameplay and gameplay, can't stress that enough. Different events and disciplines for career, solid AI, polished visuals and sounds will make the game.

If GT was purely about car count then it wouldn't be Gran Turismo , it would just be "Counting Cars" or "Who Wins The Appendage Measuring Contest" rather than having substance to it.

Said it once and I'll say it again. 600 Premiums is the magic number and Bob's Your Uncle.



I'm a loyal GT fan but some change is needed. The Philosophies are good and all but I need substance and something that can compete with competition. True, BAD sounds have to go but I don't think Kaz is doing a half arsed job. Initiative is actually being taken so there can be improvements, we could be ending up with another COD if Kaz wasn't doing this. Right now though, I want solid solutions to these problems

So do I. Absolutely. I just don't want to give up on GT, not just yet!

GT3....ahh, some of the best times of my virtual racing years!

 

[Tenacious D]

But you have to admit though, having 600 cars is no small number. That's all premiums by the way. Like I've said before, I'd rather each car have an identity than just being a number within 1200. Have a good selection where each individual one has gotten the same equal love.

Car count is nice and all but that's not all the cars in the world in GT. I just want a good selection , once that's down then PD should just keep adding more at their own pace

That's fine, as long as I can select the cars.

But when you start taking things out of people's hands, that's when you get resistance. As I mention below, some people are huge fans of GT3, but if you propose a smaller game, it's not something everyone agrees on. Everyone will insist that the car list would be missing something crucial. I say, give us the Standards in GT7. Then whoever can't stand them can avoid them - even those oddballs who insist just seeing them online causes mental hardship can have NO STANDARD CARS rooms. Probably with Standard tracks though, go figure. Then the rest of us can have our thousand-plus rides.

Explain Gran Turismo 3 then.

Well, explain why people kept going back to GT2 then, like me, even though GT3 was superior in many ways. Or I could: we like having more stuff to play with. Cars tracks, events - an Event Maker, Race Mod...

Even though GT3 was much more polished, GT2 was a much deeper much bigger game.

As TayeezSA says, 600 cars are quite a few, approaching the size of GT4 which to my knowledge was the most expansive racing game ever made. But like I say, it depends on which cars are in, and which didn't make the cut. A few people like the Gillet Vertigo, and would miss that horrendous machine. Some can't stand the Nomad Diablo GT car, I love it.

Suppose none of the TVRs made it over. Or Standards like the BMW M3 GTR or Mercedes-Benz 190 E Evo II. Or the FIA GT Standards like the Alfa Romeo 155 or Audi A4 Touring Car. ALMS racers like the fantasy Ford GT LM Spec II, Camaro LM or Corvette LM. The original Raybrig NSX Super GT car. This would have me grumpy.

It's academic though, because we are getting those Standard cars and tracks, so everyone should be happy. Options, remember? Some of those options are going to be other racers like Forza 5, Drive Club and P CARS, so we'll see what happens.

If you're busy actually racing and competing, you don't have time to drive 100's of cars.

Well... I'm not quite sure what you're driving at here. If you mean something alluding to my GT Pro idea, that's rather true. But if you mean the game could be so challenging that you're too wrapped up in competing to be car collecting, I'm hearkening back to my GT4 garage with its 400-plus cars, most of them raced. I made it a point to explore the game to its fullest.

Maybe you're angsting over the wait for P CARS, and how you're going to master different sections with just a few rides, much like a real world racer. I can sympathize with that, some of us did our GT3, 4, 5 and 6 careers that way. For a while.

But in a gaming environment where there aren't any space constrictions, upkeep or property taxes to bog a car owner down, why not own every vehicle you can?

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's fine, as long as I can select the cars.

But when you start taking things out of people's hands, that's when you get resistance. As I mention below, some people are huge fans of GT3, but if you propose a smaller game, it's not something everyone agrees on. Everyone will insist that the car list would be missing something crucial. I say, give us the Standards in GT7. Then whoever can't stand them can avoid them - even those oddballs who insist just seeing them online causes mental hardship can have NO STANDARD CARS rooms. Probably with Standard tracks though, go figure. Then the rest of us can have our thousand-plus rides.


Well, explain why people kept going back to GT2 then, like me, even though GT3 was superior in many ways. Or I could: we like having more stuff to play with. Cars tracks, events - an Event Maker, Race Mod...

Even though GT3 was much more polished, GT2 was a much deeper much bigger game.

As TayeezSA says, 600 cars are quite a few, approaching the size of GT4 which to my knowledge was the most expansive racing game ever made. But like I say, it depends on which cars are in, and which didn't make the cut. A few people like the Gillet Vertigo, and would miss that horrendous machine. Some can't stand the Nomad Diablo GT car, I love it.

Suppose none of the TVRs made it over. Or Standards like the BMW M3 GTR or Mercedes-Benz 190 E Evo II. Or the FIA GT Standards like the Alfa Romeo 155 or Audi A4 Touring Car. ALMS racers like the fantasy Ford GT LM Spec II, Camaro LM or Corvette LM. The original Raybrig NSX Super GT car. This would have me grumpy.

It's academic though, because we are getting those Standard cars and tracks, so everyone should be happy. Options, remember? Some of those options are going to be other racers like Forza 5, Drive Club and P CARS, so we'll see what happens.


Well... I'm not quite sure what you're driving at here. If you mean something alluding to my GT Pro idea, that's rather true. But if you mean the game could be so challenging that you're too wrapped up in competing to be car collecting, I'm hearkening back to my GT4 garage with its 400-plus cars, most of them raced. I made it a point to explore the game to its fullest.

Maybe you're angsting over the wait for P CARS, and how you're going to master different sections with just a few rides, much like a real world racer. I can sympathize with that, some of us did our GT3, 4, 5 and 6 careers that way. For a while.

But in a gaming environment where there aren't any space constrictions, upkeep or property taxes to bog a car owner down, why not own every vehicle you can?

Perhaps I didn't flesh out my question enough. Explain why, if car count is so vital, GT3 was the most successful game of the series, selling millions more than the next best game, and did so with only 180ish cars. In fact, the count went from 600+ in GT2 to 180 in GT3 so fans should have turned away from the game in droves...and yet...they didn't.