Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered

[Gt amateur]

Unfortunately i haven't been to races like that, we don't have GT3 races here in Norway, the only race i have watch live is rallycross on Lyngåsbanen in the 80s when Martin Schanke was driving.
But i sure would love to see GT3 cars live.
It's a shame that PD can't capture the sound of those cars.

80's? They still rally in Norway, right? Not gonna lie, I would love to experience that in person. Since you're not that far from Germany; a good 30-45€, and come to the Nurburgring on Sept 20-21 to see GT1 live. I didn't realize until earlier tonight that they're heading there. I do agree with you on the sounds.

 

[Speedster911]

I don't actually believe you. I believe my own ears. Think again about what I actually said.

What? If it's not laptop speaker quality, it's not the target hardware T10 had in mind when mixing and mastering, and when showing off to higher management.

Ah, so you really didn't understand what I said, just as I thought. Headphones have the potential to give the best signal to noise ratio overall, and my headphones in particular are actually designed to highlight flaws in recordings, so I think they are more than adequate for assessing quality.

They optimised their game to work with low end hardware only. Re-read what I wrote, and read the article I linked to, please: http://productionadvice.co.uk/mastering-for-earbuds/



Volume generally does, yes. There's an old joke in the recording industry that a 3 dB level difference corresponds to a doubling of the audio quality. This is why absolute level differences are carefully controlled in comparing different hardware or different media etc.

GT5 Prologue sounded breathtaking at high volumes (on actual speakers, filling a room, or headphones), especially with the better sounding cars. That's partly because of the way the sound can "breathe" on the high dynamic range settings (Small or Large Theatre), and the directional audio engine PD developed.

Hey man, that's great. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I couldn't really be bothered to address all those points individually. The sounds get the deal done nicely for me, based on real-world driving experience and the cars I've seen up close, along with their appearances in car shows, reviews, road/track test videos and movies.

^^ All in all, they have nailed the sound pretty well, however, more room is always there for improvements, which they did make with FM5.

We always feel these desire to nitpick as gamers and especially as car enthusiasts as we want nothing but the best stuff represented in these car sims or "realistic driving games" if you will. Interestingly, Forza and GT both have a collection of hits and misses when it comes to sound as well, and quite frankly in my rather humble opinion, Forza has far too many hits and less misses in contrast.

The best quality earpiece or digital surround headphones cannot rival the quality and oomph of a high end surround speaker setup (my system not included course'), but if the headphones work well for you, I say continue using them or use them as a good source to mark the good/bad stuff in games when it comes to sound. Cheers to that.

I hope your insights and expertise bring some really impressive changes to the GT franchise. Good luck.

 

[IngRobNy]

80's? They still rally in Norway, right? Not gonna lie, I would love to experience that in person. Since you're not that far from Germany; a good 30-45€, and come to the Nurburgring on Sept 20-21 to see GT1 live. I didn't realize until earlier tonight that they're heading there. I do agree with you on the sounds.

Yes they do, WRC Rally 2014 had som stages here in Norway.
Oh my, that would be an experince for life, Nürburing Nordschleife is my favorite track. It would also be awsome to rent a car and drive on Nürburing, it should be on the tings to do list.
But for now, the closets thing we Playstation owners have is GT6, the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3, Audi R8 LMS Ultra and Nissan GT-R NISMO GT3 has ok sound, not spectacular but ok, it's to bad that the BMW Z4 GT3 have such a awful sound, because the car is really looking badass and it's very nice to drive too. Audi R8 LMS Ultra is the car i'm using for the GT3 races.

 

[Speedster911]

Drive on The Ring at least once.. definitely on my bucket list too.

Here's hoping.


@IngRobNy Have you driven and/or seen some these cars.. how they sound IRL? Take FM4 for a spin and treat your ears like there's no tomorrow!

Happy revving!

 

[IngRobNy]

Drive on The Ring at least once.. definitely on my bucket list too.

Here's hoping.


@IngRobNy Have you driven and/or seen some these cars.. how they sound IRL? Take FM4 for a spin and treat your ears like there's no tomorrow!

Happy revving!

Sadly no and no, just watching races on tv and sometimes online, i saw the Goodwood Festival of Speed 2014 live stream on youtube.
And when the cars have better sound through my small laptop speakers than GT6
has through my tv speakers, then there is something very wrong with the Polyphony Digital Inc. sound department...

 

[Gt amateur]

Yes they do, WRC Rally 2014 had som stages here in Norway.
Oh my, that would be an experince for life, Nürburing Nordschleife is my favorite track. It would also be awsome to rent a car and drive on Nürburing, it should be on the tings to do list.
But for now, the closets thing we Playstation owners have is GT6, the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3, Audi R8 LMS Ultra and Nissan GT-R NISMO GT3 has ok sound, not spectacular but ok, it's to bad that the BMW Z4 GT3 have such a awful sound, because the car is really looking badass and it's very nice to drive too. Audi R8 LMS Ultra is the car i'm using for the GT3 races.

I'm not going to lie....it's a bit expensive if you rent a car from the ring, versus taking your own car. I'm heading to Germany 13 days from now, and will be going to the ring, and if things go my way, I'll be seeing good ol Blancpain...and the race queens....hopefully, Hayley Coxon, too. Very beautiful woman who knows her stuff. I'm pretty sure they'll only do it on the GP course. Either way, hearing them in person is the best thing. Who knew the R35 / Z4 sounded so amazing....complete awe.

I know England has driving experiences where you can drive Ford Falcons, R8's, 911's and more. I don't know if Norway has some of the same, but let me tell you this....driving in a Lotus Elise; which has no power steering btw, is a blast on the track. You can drive the R8 on Silverstone!!!

Back on track: Despite many cars sounding like vacuum cleaners, or even super vacuums, I'm not a fan of when 2 different cars, both sound like turbo'd vacuum cleaners. I want to be optimistic and say it'll get fixed in GT7, but I don't see it happening. If he increases the car count, I guarantee you, every single car won't have different engine sounds. If he drops the count to like 500, then there's a bigger chance.

 

[IngRobNy]

Back on track: Despite many cars sounding like vacuum cleaners, or even super vacuums, I'm not a fan of when 2 different cars, both sound like turbo'd vacuum cleaners. I want to be optimistic and say it'll get fixed in GT7, but I don't see it happening. If he increases the car count, I guarantee you, every single car won't have different engine sounds. If he drops the count to like 500, then there's a bigger chance.

I can't agree more. I don't have high hopes when it comes to GT7, there is no way they can manage to get a perfect sound on 1300 cars or more before the release of GT7, hopefully i'm wrong, but not much has happend to the sound since GT1 (although i'm not sure, it's a long time since i have played GT1, but as i recall the sound wasn't great back then either), and blaming PS3 hardware? no, sorry PD i don't buy that. But if it is because the limitation of PS3, they should have lesser cars and the remaining cars should have better sounds. Quality over quantity.

 

[Speedster911]

Sadly no and no, just watching races on tv and sometimes online, i saw the Goodwood Festival of Speed 2014 live stream on youtube.
And when the cars have better sound through my small laptop speakers than GT6
has through my tv speakers, then there is something very wrong with the Polyphony Digital Inc. sound department...

Yeap, well... mehh! Let's wait till GT7 and see what happens. Though I'm not expecting that many improvements.

I'm not going to lie....it's a bit expensive if you rent a car from the ring, versus taking your own car. I'm heading to Germany 13 days from now, and will be going to the ring, and if things go my way, I'll be seeing good ol Blancpain...and the race queens....hopefully, Hayley Coxon, too. Very beautiful woman who knows her stuff. I'm pretty sure they'll only do it on the GP course. Either way, hearing them in person is the best thing. Who knew the R35 / Z4 sounded so amazing....complete awe.

I know England has driving experiences where you can drive Ford Falcons, R8's, 911's and more. I don't know if Norway has some of the same, but let me tell you this....driving in a Lotus Elise; which has no power steering btw, is a blast on the track. You can drive the R8 on Silverstone!!!

Back on track: Despite many cars sounding like vacuum cleaners, or even super vacuums, I'm not a fan of when 2 different cars, both sound like turbo'd vacuum cleaners. I want to be optimistic and say it'll get fixed in GT7, but I don't see it happening. If he increases the car count, I guarantee you, every single car won't have different engine sounds. If he drops the count to like 500, then there's a bigger chance.

Super vacuums.. ?!

Turn up the sound too much and your TV might create a black hole and suck you right in!

That's it, isn't it? I hope PD can be realistic about this and start with 500 cars initially. There is absolutely no way they can release a game in a year or two with 1500 cars and promising accurate and highly detailed engine sounds for all of them. Maybe they can if they release the game after more than 3 years or so...

I don't see that happening though, cos' sadly with GT7's ubber beautiful graphics, track and car count, people will continue to buy it like crazy. As for me, I certainly won't. I'm in it for the track and racing experience, not the sheer number, variety or visual appeal of the game. Sound is everything when it comes to making that experience memorable and true to life.

I can't agree more. I don't have high hopes when it comes to GT7, there is no way they can manage to get a perfect sound on 1300 cars or more before the release of GT7, hopefully i'm wrong, but not much has happend to the sound since GT1 (although i'm not sure, it's a long time since i have played GT1, but as i recall the sound wasn't great back then either), and blaming PS3 hardware? no, sorry PD i don't buy that. But if it is because the limitation of PS3, they should have lesser cars and the remaining cars should have better sounds. Quality over quantity.

The PS3's hardware is an exceptional piece of engineering. They went overboard with so many things, and failed to improve sound. It really was a crying shame how some sounds almost seemed like a copy/paste of the PS2 era GT games. They tried to correct it with patches, which made little difference.

It is not the hardware, I agree with you a 100%. It's simply the company's lack of vision which is responsible for the whole quantity over quality dilemma. FM did sound in an incredible way starting from FM2 all the way to 4. It also had noticeably better physics IMO, and gorgeous visuals by the time FM3 and 4 came out. All this on slightly inferior hardware I might add.
I'm not including FM5 as we're discussing previous gen games here.

The solution is a very realistic one: focus on less cars, get EACH one of them right. Yes, it's going to be painful, but the dividends will be huge. They can make DLC available later for free. Even if they charge for DLC cars, they're going to be bought like pizza. Hey... everybody loves pizza!

GT1 to 4 sound-wise did it for me fine.. as I hadn't experienced the likes of FM or any of the hardcore PC sims back then. But then there was WRC 2 on the PS2, and apart from great graphics and physics, it did sound design particularly well. I still remember the turbo kicking in on those Evos and Imprezas and they sounded very realistic to me. All this on a PS2... imagine! There were a few more, but I can't really recall them at the moment.

 

[Griffith500]

Hey man, that's great. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I couldn't really be bothered to address all those points individually. The sounds get the deal done nicely for me, based on real-world driving experience and the cars I've seen up close, along with their appearances in car shows, reviews, road/track test videos and movies.

We were talking about the quality / exaggeration issue - i.e. the distortion and the awful mastering.

^^ All in all, they have nailed the sound pretty well, however, more room is always there for improvements, which they did make with FM5.

The underlying recordings and source separation is no doubt well-executed, but my primary issue with the series since FM3, is that it is mastered in such a way as to totally obliterate that potential - everything has that same horrid crunchiness to it. FM2 is miles better in that regard, and it has sounds that change with modifications, to boot! They ruined all of that with FM3, and it's never got better. FM5 was a step in the right direction, but no modified sounds is a deal breaker for me - so much for quality over quantity!

We always feel these desire to nitpick as gamers and especially as car enthusiasts as we want nothing but the best stuff represented in these car sims or "realistic driving games" if you will. Interestingly, Forza and GT both have a collection of hits and misses when it comes to sound as well, and quite frankly in my rather humble opinion, Forza has far too many hits and less misses in contrast.

Yes, the main advantage Forza has always had is its dedicated intake sounds; GT has never had intake sounds. But that's a separate issue. Notice that the distortion in the later FM games is mostly responding to the heavily mixed intake sounds, because they're generally more guttural and meaty, and so impart more "flavour" as a result.

Many of GT's anaemic sounds would be fixed with a properly paired and balanced intake sound.

The best quality earpiece or digital surround headphones cannot rival the quality and oomph of a high end surround speaker setup (my system not included course'), but if the headphones work well for you, I say continue using them or use them as a good source to mark the good/bad stuff in games when it comes to sound. Cheers to that.

We were talking about the quality and exaggeration issue. The only real advantage to speakers, which I also have, but rarely use out of courtesy, is that they generate an SPL that your whole body can feel. That's kind of important in the real-life situations in terms of the "impact", as is the wide and varied spatial character, that sense of envelopment that live-sounds achieve, but games have yet to achieve (and so easily could.)

I hope your insights and expertise bring some really impressive changes to the GT franchise. Good luck.

I don't think my insights are going to be used by PD any time, ever. Just wanted to make that clear.

Besides, my ear tells me they know what they're doing - GT5 Prologue signposted the sound update a full four years before it was officially announced. What I mean is, this is a long term plan, so any judgment on the task of producing sound assets needs to take that extreme length of development time into account. They're not just about to start work.

I don't blame other people for not having that same confidence as me, though.

 

[Spitty]

We were talking about the quality / exaggeration issue - i.e. the distortion and the awful mastering.



The underlying recordings and source separation is no doubt well-executed, but my primary issue with the series since FM3, is that it is mastered in such a way as to totally obliterate that potential - everything has that same horrid crunchiness to it. FM2 is miles better in that regard, and it has sounds that change with modifications, to boot! They ruined all of that with FM3, and it's never got better. FM5 was a step in the right direction, but no modified sounds is a deal breaker for me - so much for quality over quantity!

And I thought I was the only one who thought that FM2 had the best sounds.
Each car has 4 different exhaust sounds - stock/street/sport/race.
I still play it from time to time just to compare the audio changes with different setups.
Subaru 22b as an example switches from an exhaust header with pipes with different lengths to a race exhaust with equal lengths, that changes the engine's sound character completely.
Very realistic and unique to Forza 2.

 

[soundfx]

Wishful thinking.

Remember the "completely new method of generating sounds"? Well, that makes it much easier to create content that sounds close, without even going near the cars. Recordings would be used as references only.

Also, they've been working on it for years already. The extra staff are for recording more cars in less time, for a projected increase in throughput (the modeling teams have been expanding, too); they've been recording cars in a more sensible way since (before) 2004 and yet very few of the new cars added in that time appear to use those recordings, instead relying on samples from the older games.

That's because the game still uses the old method of generating sounds; the "new" cars (added since GT4) will already have new sounds made for the new method; they've probably had enough time to do most if not all of the Standards, too.

What's the real challenge is putting boundaries on the modified sounds (tuning parts etc.), since with the new method they are infinitely adjustable, practically on the fly.

Interesting. What is this 'new method' of generating sounds and where does the info come from?

Synthesised, physical modeling, procedural audio?

Whatever, the rules are far beyond a harmonic and noise component. For the moment, generated audio is never going to have the 'dirt' and accuracy of a real recording.

Recording cars static holding RPM, or dynapack (with no deceleration) isn't the more sensible way. Recording on track is the best, to a detailed specification and if using loops (which they are) they need a granular solution to pitch flattening those loops to make things easier. Ala Crankcase REV.

I personally want real sounds, done well. Full-load, partial-load, partial off-throttle, full off-throttle and engine braking. All recorded from exh, intake and cabin.

There are many racing games that sound fantastic these days - all of them use real recordings in conjunction with good 'physics'. This being the musician that plays the instrument... which is so very important.

Yeah, it will be a lot of work sourcing and recording... start with basic engines types and break it down, record more then break it down further.

I'd be happy with ~50 unique engines to start with as long as they sounded fantastic.

 

[Speedster911]

We were talking about the quality / exaggeration issue - i.e. the distortion and the awful mastering.



The underlying recordings and source separation is no doubt well-executed, but my primary issue with the series since FM3, is that it is mastered in such a way as to totally obliterate that potential - everything has that same horrid crunchiness to it. FM2 is miles better in that regard, and it has sounds that change with modifications, to boot! They ruined all of that with FM3, and it's never got better. FM5 was a step in the right direction, but no modified sounds is a deal breaker for me - so much for quality over quantity!



Yes, the main advantage Forza has always had is its dedicated intake sounds; GT has never had intake sounds. But that's a separate issue. Notice that the distortion in the later FM games is mostly responding to the heavily mixed intake sounds, because they're generally more guttural and meaty, and so impart more "flavour" as a result.

Many of GT's anaemic sounds would be fixed with a properly paired and balanced intake sound.



We were talking about the quality and exaggeration issue. The only real advantage to speakers, which I also have, but rarely use out of courtesy, is that they generate an SPL that your whole body can feel. That's kind of important in the real-life situations in terms of the "impact", as is the wide and varied spatial character, that sense of envelopment that live-sounds achieve, but games have yet to achieve (and so easily could.)



I don't think my insights are going to be used by PD any time, ever. Just wanted to make that clear.

Besides, my ear tells me they know what they're doing - GT5 Prologue signposted the sound update a full four years before it was officially announced. What I mean is, this is a long term plan, so any judgment on the task of producing sound assets needs to take that extreme length of development time into account. They're not just about to start work.

I don't blame other people for not having that same confidence as me, though.

Wow... FM2.. good memories! I've been trying to find that pretty badly, just to enjoy the sounds and track collection.. but I can't seem to. Yes, absolutely.. FM2 did modded sounds extremely well, something which was lost almost completely in FM3. They brought it back in FM4, but not quite at the same impressive level as FM2.

As for sound, you really ought to get a beefy speaker setup. Like you said, you can feel the sound which IMO makes for a more exciting experience. And it's easier on the ears too, fatigue-wise.

And I thought I was the only one who thought that FM2 had the best sounds.
Each car has 4 different exhaust sounds - stock/street/sport/race.
I still play it from time to time just to compare the audio changes with different setups.
Subaru 22b as an example switches from an exhaust header with pipes with different lengths to a race exhaust with equal lengths, that changes the engine's sound character completely.
Very realistic and unique to Forza 2.

Agreed.. agreed! I do not understand why T10 does this: they include new stuff in newer Forza games but ditch the good ol stuff from previous Forzas! Mildly annoying to say the least. I think FM2 even had exhaust upgrades showing up cosmetically.

Interesting. What is this 'new method' of generating sounds and where does the info come from?

Synthesised, physical modeling, procedural audio?

Whatever, the rules are far beyond a harmonic and noise component. For the moment, generated audio is never going to have the 'dirt' and accuracy of a real recording.

Recording cars static holding RPM, or dynapack (with no deceleration) isn't the more sensible way. Recording on track is the best, to a detailed specification and if using loops (which they are) they need a granular solution to pitch flattening those loops to make things easier. Ala Crankcase REV.

I personally want real sounds, done well. Full-load, partial-load, partial off-throttle, full off-throttle and engine braking. All recorded from exh, intake and cabin.

There are many racing games that sound fantastic these days - all of them use real recordings in conjunction with good 'physics'. This being the musician that plays the instrument... which is so very important.

Yeah, it will be a lot of work sourcing and recording... start with basic engines types and break it down, record more then break it down further.

I'd be happy with ~50 unique engines to start with as long as they sounded fantastic.

Right on. This can be achieved only with a low car count. I think PCARS is going about it in a very clever way. They got 70 cars, and I have full faith, each one of them will be represented faithfully in the game. I don't even mind starting with less than 50, as long as the cars exhibit all the sound character they have in real life. If they can get accurate gun sounds in a shooter, they can certainly set the bar higher with racing games and driving sims.

Remember the original NFS released in the early 90s? That had less than 10 cars, each one of them with ridiculously accurate engine sounds. Based on what was possible with technology and hardware at the time, very impressive to say the least.

 

[Griffith500]

Interesting. What is this 'new method' of generating sounds and where does the info come from?

Kaz himself mentioned specifically that it would be an entirely new method, but the way the sound was shaping up in GT5 Prologue already telegraphed this point. I expected that to achieve the quality people were wanting, PD would have to use a method that exchanged the need for RAM with something that could generate more detail on the fly.

The Red Bull and Senna cars are, I think, the first taste of that.

Synthesised, physical modeling, procedural audio?

Yes.

Whatever, the rules are far beyond a harmonic and noise component. For the moment, generated audio is never going to have the 'dirt' and accuracy of a real recording.

This is a false perception perpetuated by luddites. Offline simulation works perfectly, see Sonory. The trick is finding the shortcuts to make that work in real-time; just as it is with graphics. That has been my hobby for the last six years.

The problem is constraining yourself to a "classical" view of synthesis. Things have moved on significantly.

Recording cars static holding RPM, or dynapack (with no deceleration) isn't the more sensible way. Recording on track is the best, to a detailed specification and if using loops (which they are) they need a granular solution to pitch flattening those loops to make things easier. Ala Crankcase REV.

Granular ramps do not handle static engine speeds well. But they do (or can at least) use less RAM, generally.

I personally want real sounds, done well. Full-load, partial-load, partial off-throttle, full off-throttle and engine braking. All recorded from exh, intake and cabin.

Yes, those recordings are very important no matter how you generate the sound. You'll need a reference at the very least!

There are many racing games that sound fantastic these days - all of them use real recordings in conjunction with good 'physics'. This being the musician that plays the instrument... which is so very important.

Agreed, the physics is as important as the raw sounds the game is making. iRacing is the best demonstrator of this at the moment.

Yeah, it will be a lot of work sourcing and recording... start with basic engines types and break it down, record more then break it down further.

I'd be happy with ~50 unique engines to start with as long as they sounded fantastic.

It's a data collection exercise, really; first approximations can be made by feeding that data into a model, then tweaking it to match the recordings (if available). The beauty of such a system is that you can tweak that data whilst in the game, too...

As stated above, they haven't only just begun to do this. It all started before GT5P.

Wow... FM2.. good memories! I've been trying to find that pretty badly, just to enjoy the sounds and track collection.. but I can't seem to. Yes, absolutely.. FM2 did modded sounds extremely well, something which was lost almost completely in FM3. They brought it back in FM4, but not quite at the same impressive level as FM2.

They didn't really bring it back at all. Aspiration and engine swaps is the limit, no changes with other parts except perhaps volume and changes to the distortion, which don't really count.

As for sound, you really ought to get a beefy speaker setup. Like you said, you can feel the sound which IMO makes for a more exciting experience. And it's easier on the ears too, fatigue-wise.

I have one. And headphones are easier on the ears for the average gamer, because they isolate outside noise better, meaning you get the same dynamic range (and hence detail) at lower max SPL (assuming you don't actually just turn the volume up, just because). High dynamic range listening is automatically less fatiguing, but also less "stimulating" (which means it's perceived to sound "worse" at the same peak volume level).

...

Right on. This can be achieved only with a low car count. I think PCARS is going about it in a very clever way. They got 70 cars, and I have full faith, each one of them will be represented faithfully in the game. I don't even mind starting with less than 50, as long as the cars exhibit all the sound character they have in real life. If they can get accurate gun sounds in a shooter, they can certainly set the bar higher with racing games and driving sims.

Remember the original NFS released in the early 90s? That had less than 10 cars, each one of them with ridiculously accurate engine sounds. Based on what was possible with technology and hardware at the time, very impressive to say the least.

Heh, the way I enjoy pCARS most is by emulating that first NFS game, actually...

 

[TayeezSA]

Righteo,

I decided to dust off GT5P and have a little listening exercise with the Logitech X530s on full blast, Youtube search ready (IRL Cars), GT6 for comparison and Audio set to :Small Theater. I have this to say:

GT5P's sound engine is better than GT6's but only by 50%. The cars I compared were the Nissan GTR, Honda Integra Type R DC5, Mine's Skyline and Ferrari F430. GT5P wins the comparison test.

The thing I really liked however was the wind noise. It gave a sense of speed that was aces. If only the physics could make a car look like it's going faster. The deacceleration drone was also nice.

The emission of sound is good, like when I change views and what not. The improvements I want to see however are (I've mentioned before for some but I'll repeat):

• Better samples. They'll never be perfect but can be close to it.
• The engines need to roar as they get closer to the redline
• There needs to be different sounds (Turbo, Vtec, Dose, pops, bangs)
• Wind noise needs to be like GT5P
• Tire Noise needs a tiny adjustment.

Do those and Bob's your uncle.

 

[Speedster911]

@TayeezSA Hahaha... I like how you sneak in the "Bob's your uncle part" at the end of your posts.. !

Yes, GT has always done wind noise brilliantly. In fact, not too many games come to mind when I think about slipstreaming in GT... the wind noise actually cuts out or lowers noticeably as you're slipstreaming behind another car... that's just brilliant, love it!

 

[TayeezSA]

@TayeezSA Hahaha... I like how you sneak in the "Bob's your uncle part" at the end of your posts.. !

Yes, GT has always done wind noise brilliantly. In fact, not too many games come to mind when I think about slipstreaming in GT... the wind noise actually cuts out or lowers noticeably as you're slipstreaming behind another car... that's just brilliant, love it!

Bob knows best after all

Wind noise needs to be pronounced again. 'Nuff said PD

Anywho, I stumbled upon these. A little tunnel noise does some justice. The LFA sound is close to the real deal but the sound projection can just amplify this tenfold



Even le Ferrari



Y U NO HAVE TUNNEL ECHO??

I'm expecting too much from this new Sound engine aren't I?

 

[Griffith500]

Bob knows best after all

Wind noise needs to be pronounced again. 'Nuff said PD

Anywho, I stumbled upon these. A little tunnel noise does some justice. The LFA sound is close to the real deal but the sound projection can just amplify this tenfold

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe5mfMSHkqQ

Even le Ferrari

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAjPQfxKxjo

Y U NO HAVE TUNNEL ECHO??

I'm expecting too much from this new Sound engine aren't I?

I'm not really sure what you're saying. I can hear the echo in both of those videos, on my laptop. I remember this from GT5, too; I never had any issues hearing the reverb, but plenty of people apparently did.

There is an error with the reverb in the game, though, in that it scales in volume in the same way that the direct sound of the car does with distance. In reality it should scale according to a different curve, so that it gets relatively louder than the car with distance - i.e., the mix should get "wetter" the further away the car is.

That works very well for replays, and those videos you posted show there isn't much wrong with the situation when driving. I think, generally, the reverb could stand to be a smidgen louder at all times, perhaps. The trouble is that it's a sparse algorithmic job, for performance reasons. Having it nice and loud would highlight that sparseness (makes it sound more echo-y than reverb-y), and it's bad enough at the current volume levels, especially in replays.

Compromise!

 

[Team THRT Drift]

I hear the echo just fine. With some nice headphones it sounds pretty good. However it still sounds like it's in the works. PD has to take into account the engine vibrations the transmission, chassis, wind noise, road noise depending on the tires, etc.

 

[Speedster911]

I always thought the echo and reverb was very pronounced compared to FM4 especially. Some complained on the official forums it was too pronounced. The vids I've seen, it seems to me it's right where it should be.

@TayeezSA I don't think you're expecting too much... I too was expecting them to make huge leaps and bounds in terms of sound. I suppose the improvements are "desirable" for now. It's an upgrade from FM4 at best. What I had in mind was somewhat of a makeover to take advantage of the X1's capabilities.

Oh well.. FM6 is just a year away. Let's wait it out.

 

[Le_Manuz]

The biggest problem is that there is no consistency
(and it's everywhere like that in all aspect of the game)
some turbo cars have dump valve effect, some don't when they have in real
that turbo dump valve effect is not even across the different views
most of the time you only hear it in the top view which is the view with the most complete sounds
you can hear wind, motor, turbo (if any)
i also recently noticed (because i had to bought a new tv, a flat lcd with small speakers) that there is three different settings in sound option: normal, theater, cinema
which one is the most accurate ?

i can now really understand what most peoples says, sounds sux on a flat screen, the speakers are too small
but a new sound engine won't change anything

like i said, before, there is a huge work to be done. rework it from scratch
in every view you have to hear everything but maybe at different sound level
like in the inside view, the wind noise have to be less present than in bumper or top view
in rear view exhaust have to be more present than anything else
sounds needs to be richer and better balanced depending of the view

and i don't believe a single word of that they use more than 10 mikes to records sounds
or they are really amateurs with a really bad project leader
especially when most points out that there is tons of reused sounds for even the latest cars introduced in senna update
what a shame

 

[Speedster911]

Exactly what I think will get them out of this mess, if they want to that is.

Start from scratch, and start from a significantly LOWER car count.

 

[Griffith500]

Exactly what I think will get them out of this mess, if they want to that is.

Start from scratch, and start from a significantly LOWER car count.

And what of the work they have done so far? Kaz said they were needing a breakthrough to get the new sound method working on PS3, now it's not coming until GT7. Do they just throw all of that away and do what you suggest?

Or should we wait and see what they've been doing all this time?

 

[TayeezSA]

And what of the work they have done so far? Kaz said they were needing a breakthrough to get the new sound method working on PS3, now it's not coming until GT7. Do they just throw all of that away and do what you suggest?

Or should we wait and see what they've been doing all this time?

I'll wait and see what they have in store. We were told that big updates were coming. Besides Zahara, the Nismo GTR and FT-1 race car, what else could be big? The sound? I dunno

Anyway, from my last post the vids had the sound altered so it sounds like the car is in a tunnel. The current tunnel echo effect isn't really there

 

[Griffith500]

I'll wait and see what they have in store. We were told that big updates were coming. Besides Zahara, the Nismo GTR and FT-1 race car, what else could be big? The sound? I dunno

Do not expect a sound update for GT6.

Anyway, from my last post the vids had the sound altered so it sounds like the car is in a tunnel. The current tunnel echo effect isn't really there

Ah, I hadn't realised that. But there is a reverb effect in the game, and it is persistent and it does change in the tunnels. As I said, it's just a bit quiet, most likely because it's sparse and hence echo-y.

 

[TayeezSA]

Do not expect a sound update for GT6.

But we we're told to expect improvements though the thing is when Kaz talks of improvements, how drastic will they be? I'm just thinking we'll get updated samples at the most for GT6, then the broad spectrum will be for GT7.

Ah, I hadn't realised that. But there is a reverb effect in the game, and it is persistent and it does change in the tunnels. As I said, it's just a bit quiet, most likely because it's sparse and hence echo-y.

It is pretty quiet, I experimented with the 97T before I posted those vids and yeah. The vids made me shed a tear of joy

Another thing. A few players complain about that "Vacuum Cleaner" sound effect to a few cars in the chase cam view. In PD's defense, it's actually correct.

Look at these for example:




Notice the difference between the 2 when the cars pull? The NA car (Honda) doesn't have that "Vacuum" sound because it doesn't have a turbo... The Subaru posted does have it, because turbo. Also, there's no external wastegates on the turbo cars.

Another video for proof



Lastly, I wish Hot Version would help GT out with Sound recording by organizing these

 

[JHB434]

We were told that big updates were coming. Besides Zahara, the Nismo GTR and FT-1 race car, what else could be big? The sound? I dunno

Oh I dunno. B-Spec, Track builder, community features, the rest of the game? I can't say I'm exactly holding my breath for any of it though. Dead horse.

 

[Griffith500]

But we we're told to expect improvements though the thing is when Kaz talks of improvements, how drastic will they be? I'm just thinking we'll get updated samples at the most for GT6, then the broad spectrum will be for GT7.

My personal expectation is that samples are history; the Red Bull and Senna cars show that PD have developed a new model, but it's still missing all the bells and whistles. Namely intake.

...

Another thing. A few players complain about that "Vacuum Cleaner" sound effect to a few cars in the chase cam view. In PD's defense, it's actually correct.

...

What you're exemplifying is flow noise, and PD have got that down pat (nothing to do with samples, it's all generated). However, from prowling these sorts of threads for a while, what people are really complaining about are the thin samples (they're short and few in number across the rev range) and lack of intake sound.

Notice the difference between the 2 when the cars pull? The NA car (Honda) doesn't have that "Vacuum" sound because it doesn't have a turbo... The Subaru posted does have it, because turbo. Also, there's no external wastegates on the turbo cars.

Perfect examples of flow noise; when on boost, the engine is pumping more air. A larger exhaust aperture is more efficient at radiating sound (of a wider frequency band), so there's a compromise taken in order to keep the noise down; that's why simple exhaust mods really help a turbo car breathe.

On top of that, the characteristic boxer sound is lumpier, and so the pressure peaks are larger and the flow noise more apparent.

Lastly, I wish Hot Version would help GT out with Sound recording by organizing these

No need, a physical model will give you all of that and more. The recordings will just be useful for guidance.

 

[Speedster911]

And what of the work they have done so far? Kaz said they were needing a breakthrough to get the new sound method working on PS3, now it's not coming until GT7. Do they just throw all of that away and do what you suggest?

Or should we wait and see what they've been doing all this time?

I don't think it's fair to drag my comments in a different direction than intended; PS2 and PS3 era assets need to be ditched for good.

Most important of all, PD must stop acting like they're stuck in a race to get the most number of cars rolling out with the new release. That is one of the primary reasons they've been experiencing so many setbacks. Quantity over quality.

It should always be the other way around, especially when you're showcasing new hardware. Many devs have wised up as a result. Why can't PD do the same?

Anyway, debating over this is pointless. There will always be a chunk of gamers who feel a ridiculous car count and pretty graphics is extremely important. IMO all that quantity and visuals ain't worth much if you're not accurately modeling behavior of ALL cars in the game.. cosmetically, audio-wise and performance.

If you are indeed in favor of all that quantity, and feel it's highly important in a Gran Turismo game, then you can surely accept a sub-standard game with more cars, more tracks, prettier graphics = there's your GT7 right there.

While in other related news: Forza continues to make leaps and bounds, even though they may not be very huge. Oh and did I mention PCARS? Dang.. almost forgot!

 

[Griffith500]

I don't think it's fair to drag my comments in a different direction than intended; PS2 and PS3 era assets need to be ditched for good.

OK. So why does that mean they should get rid of the stuff they've been working on to replace those assets, as you've demanded? Or had you forgotten that there is a ten year gap in the sound team's output, despite the team itself having grown in concert with the car modeling team? What assets have they been working on in all that time?

Most important of all, PD must stop acting like they're stuck in a race to get the most number of cars rolling out with the new release. That is one of the primary reasons they've been experiencing so many setbacks. Quantity over quality.

That is your supposition, and just because it makes a lot of people feel better to believe it, it does not make it true.
For instance, how has the car count delayed the course creator? Let's not make this another Standards thread, hey? It's irrelevant.

It should always be the other way around, especially when you're showcasing new hardware. Many devs have wised up as a result. Why can't PD do the same?

What new hardware? The PS4? How are you drawing your conclusions? If you're extrapolating from the PS2->PS3 transition, you should be aware that such blunt extrapolation didn't work for that transition based on the PS1->PS2 transition.

Anyway, debating over this is pointless. There will always be a chunk of gamers who feel a ridiculous car count and pretty graphics is extremely important. IMO all that quantity and visuals ain't worth much if you're not accurately modeling behavior of ALL cars in the game.. cosmetically, audio-wise and performance.

Irrelevant! You stated they should start from scratch, even though you have no idea what they've actually been doing.

If you are indeed in favor of all that quantity, and feel it's highly important in a Gran Turismo game, then you can surely accept a sub-standard game with more cars, more tracks, prettier graphics = there's your GT7 right there.

Irrelevant! I am in favour of hearing what PD's new sound method actually is capable of. You should be, too, rather then saying they should ditch it before even showcasing it. Unless you have an ulterior motive...

While in other related news: Forza continues to make leaps and bounds, even though they may not be very huge. Oh and did I mention PCARS? Dang.. almost forgot!

Yeah, lest you forget to remind us all of your bias.
Also: irrelevant!

 

[alexnipi]

PD needs this guy