Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered

[IngRobNy]

Wow, Enthusia has some good sound. Even with different turbo blow off sounds. Plus this is from Konami, in Japan.... So surely there must be some great Sound and Recording engineers to work with in the land of JDM that will make our ear holes rejoice. PD must work with Yamaha...



One of the only good Enthusia vids I could find that have some decent sound. I think I'm gonna pick this up some day.
Not to mention there's some form of torque delivery from the turbo.

Dat 787B sound doh


If Enthusia can do it, surely GT can. I have faith in PD.

The Mazda 787B had great sound, i think it is way better than the Mazda 787B in GT5 and GT6, can somebody please send this to PD, if i was them i would be we can only hope they look like this when they are listening to their own engine sounds.

 

[Griffith500]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/board/project-cars/

Precisely. I believe this is why the sound issue hasn't been addressed as of yet besides not being a high priority for PD. With 1200 cars and several hundred unique sounding cars in the bunch it's a herculean task to get them all up to snuff. It's one of the many advantages of dropping the standard cars, they can focus all their energy into getting the sounds of the remaining premiums right.

Wishful thinking.

Remember the "completely new method of generating sounds"? Well, that makes it much easier to create content that sounds close, without even going near the cars. Recordings would be used as references only.

Also, they've been working on it for years already. The extra staff are for recording more cars in less time, for a projected increase in throughput (the modeling teams have been expanding, too); they've been recording cars in a more sensible way since (before) 2004 and yet very few of the new cars added in that time appear to use those recordings, instead relying on samples from the older games.

That's because the game still uses the old method of generating sounds; the "new" cars (added since GT4) will already have new sounds made for the new method; they've probably had enough time to do most if not all of the Standards, too.

What's the real challenge is putting boundaries on the modified sounds (tuning parts etc.), since with the new method they are infinitely adjustable, practically on the fly.

 

[TayeezSA]

Wishful thinking.

Remember the "completely new method of generating sounds"? Well, that makes it much easier to create content that sounds close, without even going near the cars. Recordings would be used as references only.

Also, they've been working on it for years already. The extra staff are for recording more cars in less time, for a projected increase in throughput (the modeling teams have been expanding, too); they've been recording cars in a more sensible way since (before) 2004 and yet very few of the new cars added in that time appear to use those recordings, instead relying on samples from the older games.

That's because the game still uses the old method of generating sounds; the "new" cars (added since GT4) will already have new sounds made for the new method; they've probably had enough time to do most if not all of the Standards, too.

What's the real challenge is putting boundaries on the modified sounds (tuning parts etc.), since with the new method they are infinitely adjustable, practically on the fly.

@Griffith500 's posts give me faith

My question is though, why has Kaz only realized now that the PD team is too small and it's now time to upgrade?
Plus, how many people are gonna be in the team now? Triple the previous amount?

There's so many loose ends to this...

 

[Griffith500]

@Griffith500 's posts give me faith

My question is though, why has Kaz only realized now that the PD team is too small and it's now time to upgrade?
Plus, how many people are gonna be in the team now? Triple the previous amount?

There's so many loose ends to this...

Who says he's only just realised? I think this will be the result of some decision made many months ago about the future of the game, not its past.

You might well have asked why it took them until 2011 to (announce they were going to) expand the modeling teams. In reality, they'd been steadily increasing the numbers of modelers from GT4 to GT5's release (going by the credits of GT4, GT5P and GT5).

The sound designer team also expanded in that time. The recordists have never been credited in the same way, presumably because it was outsourced in some way (some other Sony subsidiary, or possibly freelance / agency). Perhaps Kaz has decided to bring recording in-house, the exact opposite of what some people here were ordering him to do, because they had the situation backwards in their minds so that it fit their worldview.

However, we have all those new sound designers, and no new sounds. So strange.

 

[SCER]

@Griffith500 's posts give me faith

My question is though, why has Kaz only realized now that the PD team is too small and it's now time to upgrade?
Plus, how many people are gonna be in the team now? Triple the previous amount?

There's so many loose ends to this...

Since when do game companies disclose all the information about their recruitment policy and the inner workings of their team?

 

[ScottPuss20]

I find it funny how people say that the cars in GT6 sound like vacuum cleaners, but I don't own a car that sounds like one...

 

[SCER]

I find it funny how people say that the cars in GT6 sound like vacuum cleaners, but I don't own a car that does...

For the most part it's a ridiculous exaggeration

As someone who drives cars on GT6 through their entire rev range, I can safely say that most of them are far from sounding like vacuum cleaners, with accurately sampled wastegate flutter, supercharger whine etc.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I know, right??
The Mercedes 190E 2.5 Evo 2 (with racing exhaust) is a brilliant example of what GT can do with their engine sounds. The low rev range sounds like a 4 cylinder, mid-range sounds like a V6 and high-range sounds like a small V8. If you haven't bought one already, buy one!

 

[Speedster911]

Wow, Enthusia has some good sound. Even with different turbo blow off sounds. Plus this is from Konami, in Japan.... So surely there must be some great Sound and Recording engineers to work with in the land of JDM that will make our ear holes rejoice. PD must work with Yamaha...



One of the only good Enthusia vids I could find that have some decent sound. I think I'm gonna pick this up some day.
Not to mention there's some form of torque delivery from the turbo.

Dat 787B sound doh


If Enthusia can do it, surely GT can. I have faith in PD.

Enthusia has been a very sought after game it seems, at the time anyway. I was too preoccupied with GT I suppose.. I hadn't even heard of it back then. Yes, it does some things very well. Sad there was no sequel on the next gen of consoles.

PD should recruit talents from both Yamaha and Konami. T10 did this with FM4 (recruited guys from Bizarre Studios), and it paid off in a huge way.

For the most part it's a ridiculous exaggeration

As someone who drives cars on GT6 through their entire rev range, I can safely say that most of them are far from sounding like vacuum cleaners, with accurately sampled wastegate flutter, supercharger whine etc.

Right.. and let's not forget the engine and exhaust notes, where it really counts..

 

[TayeezSA]

Since when do game companies disclose all the information about their recruitment policy and the inner workings of their team?

Go look at PD's website. There's approximately 110 employees

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, PD's website isn't going to tell you their hiring strategy, or company target size, or internal structure, or daily duties of the employees. The Pit Stop blog will give us clues, but not much more than you get from other developers.

I'm sure we would all love to see 400 top notch game makers of all skill types hard at work on GT6 and 7 this fall, but Turn 10 only got that large through massive subcontracting for Forza 4, possibly F5 too, and even Microsoft, a company who throws money around like a small government, could only sustain that for a certain length of time. The core team is only about as big as Polyphony.

If PD grew to a team of 200 people, I'd be very happy, but I wouldn't count on all that many. It depends. SONY knows full well that they have one flagship game that brings in the monies, and that's Gran Turismo, so they could possibly encourage Kaz to buy up some talent in order to make GT7 a next gen GT4.

 

[Speedster911]

I would be happy to see PD diversify the way T10 has. Outsourcing a few development processes is something that can pay handsome dividends, provided the approach is sound and calculated.

 

[TayeezSA]

Well, PD's website isn't going to tell you their hiring strategy, or company target size, or internal structure, or daily duties of the employees. The Pit Stop blog will give us clues, but not much more than you get from other developers.

I'm sure we would all love to see 400 top notch game makers of all skill types hard at work on GT6 and 7 this fall, but Turn 10 only got that large through massive subcontracting for Forza 4, possibly F5 too, and even Microsoft, a company who throws money around like a small government, could only sustain that for a certain length of time. The core team is only about as big as Polyphony.

If PD grew to a team of 200 people, I'd be very happy, but I wouldn't count on all that many. It depends. SONY knows full well that they have one flagship game that brings in the monies, and that's Gran Turismo, so they could possibly encourage Kaz to buy up some talent in order to make GT7 a next gen GT4.

Employees:Approx. 110
Business Descriptionlanning and development of game software, and operation of surrounding services
Representativeresident Kazunori Yamauchi
Board Members:Kazunori YamauchiRepresentative Director
Andrew HouseDirector
Shuhei YoshidaDirector
Kiyoshi AkutsuAuditor

Obviously they won't reveal every little thing due to trade secrets but at least a number was released and some clues in the game credits were there.

I think Out Sourcing is good but the thing is the essence of GT needs to be maintained as Kaz wants. I'd be happy too if there's 200 people. Basically doubled which means bigger and better things. Collabs will make the best difference in my opinion.

In all honesty though I think it's down to Sony to provide for PD. I mean get this, PD is one of Sony's big gun developers, GT is a system seller. PD should be the ones making demands I rate.

 

[IngRobNy]

Here is an idea.

What if we send email directly to the car companies?

I'm tempted to send a complaint to BMW about the awful motor sound on following models: E93 M3 (BMW Motorsport) 2010, M3 GT (BMW Motorsport) 2011, Z4 GT3 2011 and the new M4.

And a complaint to Nissan about the awful motor sound on the Nissan GT-R Calsonic IMPUL 2008.

I'm sure there is even more cars with almost unbearable engine sounds.

Maybe the car companies would be worried about the bad reputation the cars is getting and maybe they will express their worries to Sony who will then turn to Polyphony Digital and demand that they have to sort this out as soon as possible, because this is not good advertising for the car manufacturers or Gran Turismo.

What are your thoughts on this?

Also, Kazunori Yamauchi is already admitting that they don't manage to keep up the work on sound with the rapid increase of cars, you can read it here:

http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/634

QUOTE START And the biggest problem is that the sound recordings have not caught up to the increase in the number of cars. QUOTE END

My advice would be: So stop! This rediculous amount of cars have gotten out of controll, put the breaks on now and focus on quality rather than quantity... please.

When will enough be enough? 2000 cars? 2500 cars? 3000 cars?

 

[Brutaka]

That will not work, Major car companies will not listen to a few emails about how their cars sound in a video game.

 

[Tenacious D]

I would be happy to see PD diversify the way T10 has. Outsourcing a few development processes is something that can pay handsome dividends, provided the approach is sound and calculated.

Outsourcing is almost always the more expensive way to go, especially if you're going to pay a company to do what you're doing already. Those studios have to make a profit, after all, that's how they stick around.

The price tag for GT5 was around $80 million, but what it was for Forza 4 must have been off the charts. While PD was running around 130 employees in the final year or two of GT6, Forza 4 had more than 400 people working on it from development studios from around the world. And a Hollywood graphics studio contracted to give F4 a good graphic and lighting system for a game that looked about as good as GT5 with 16 cars on track, finally, and a pretty object rich environment. MS has never admitted what any of their Forzas cost to make. I came across a site that briefly stated a figure of $120 million for F4, and that page vanished quickly, but considering the massive army of developers and graphic technicians that worked on it, that sounds about right. Maybe even low. It's hard to say, because that's just crazy spending to hire so freaking many people, and a Hollywood graphic studio to boot.

I would much prefer that SONY fund a big hiring spree, and add 50 or more modelers and artists, maybe a few physics people who know tire modeling and car kinetics well, and damage modeling. Keep it in-house, keep them there, and keep them busy doing things like Premiumizing the cars and tracks in the series. All the tracks, and adding more of it all over the coming years.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The price tag for GT5 was around $80 million,

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/gran-turismo-5-sporting-60-million-budget/1100-6239328/

Speaking to the magazine, Polyphony Digital head Kazunori Yamauchi said the budget for the game is around $60 million. That makes it among the most expensive games ever made--but not the most expensive, according to Yamauchi.

Forza 4 had more than 400 people working on it from development studios from around the world. And a Hollywood graphics studio contracted to give F4 a good graphic and lighting system for a game that looked about as good as GT5 with 16 cars on track, finally, and a pretty object rich environment.

From the video below:

70 full time employees, 80 contractors at peak production + partners all around the world that help build this game, 400 at our peak, vendors in China, Vietnam, India etc.

So that's 70 full time, 80 they bring in as needed at peak production not all through the project which could easily be for a few weeks or months, and the rest are from outsourcing around the world which could refer to anything like the entire staff of GlassEgg for example. In addition to that, Forza 4 was only 2 years after Forza 3, whereas GT5 was 5 years after GT4.

Regardless, it's clearly not 400 full-time staff for the duration of the game, they bring people in or use outsourcing as needed, which probably keeps the overall development costs as low as possible. Given the 60% shorter development time I'd hazard to guess the budget for Forza 4 was much, much lower than GT5.

 

[Speedster911]

Right, interesting info bits there.

I think it squarely comes down to talent and execution, and Forza nails it.

Here is an idea.

What if we send email directly to the car companies?

I'm tempted to send a complaint to BMW about the awful motor sound on following models: E93 M3 (BMW Motorsport) 2010, M3 GT (BMW Motorsport) 2011, Z4 GT3 2011 and the new M4.

And a complaint to Nissan about the awful motor sound on the Nissan GT-R Calsonic IMPUL 2008.

I'm sure there is even more cars with almost unbearable engine sounds.

Maybe the car companies would be worried about the bad reputation the cars is getting and maybe they will express their worries to Sony who will then turn to Polyphony Digital and demand that they have to sort this out as soon as possible, because this is not good advertising for the car manufacturers or Gran Turismo.

What are your thoughts on this?

Also, Kazunori Yamauchi is already admitting that they don't manage to keep up the work on sound with the rapid increase of cars, you can read it here:

http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/634

QUOTE START And the biggest problem is that the sound recordings have not caught up to the increase in the number of cars. QUOTE END

My advice would be: So stop! This rediculous amount of cars have gotten out of controll, put the breaks on now and focus on quality rather than quantity... please.

When will enough be enough? 2000 cars? 2500 cars? 3000 cars?

I think it's a brilliant idea, but I'm not sure how it's going to be treated by the manufacturers, considering it's coming from just a bunch of gamers. However, if it comes from some kind of body or perhaps a coalition of gamers unhappy with GT sounds (), maybe.. just maybe they'll take notice.

Your idea is very good I should tell you again, but sending it through a particular channel will ensure it is well received. But then tell me something.. if these manufacturers give PD a license to feature their cars in the game, aren't they aware of the mediocre engine sounds? They must be, and clearly not bothered at all.

This entire sound debate makes my head spin every time. Why can't Kaz just get his house in order and fix them once and for all? No we don't want updates and changes.. please REDO the sound in GT7, thank you!!

 

[Griffith500]

The update was meant to be a completely new method - this new method has, in my opinion, been evidenced in part by the S&RB cars. That full update has now been left for GT7. If anyone outside of PD is aware of what this new sound method does, it's the car manufacturers.

PD's new method likely does not rely on recordings; they would only be used to help the sound designers tweak parameters to get the new method sounding more like the real thing. So you could in theory just use YouTube, as I do, and get close enough for a first attempt (then, update the game once you've recorded the car and had another go - it's just a few numbers to change).

Bespoke, high quality recordings are still very useful, because you can effectively isolate the different sources and record from different locations (interior!) etc. This might be related to reflecting changes due to weight reduction, suspension changes and other racing-oriented modifications (e.g. "solid" engine mounts), chassis noise in general etc. It's possible PD would want to research and expand their new method to be able to account for these differences in the same "built-in" way it could account for exhaust changes, say.

So rather than PD saying you do x mod, you get y change in the cabin sound, they just let players have the freedom of modifications and leave the altered parameters associated with those mods affect the sound "naturally".


Also, outsourcing labour from Vietnam is cheaper than paying more Americans? Shock! What about outsourcing to Japan?

 

[rjo78]

Personally no offence to pd i hope They read this, how come a small team like slightly mad studio's their project cars made by a smaller team have better engine sound?? Dare i say it even though it's not my game anymore (moved to ps4 and kept my PS3 still hooked up,360 is done for me upstairs in box)but even forza3,4 had better sounds engine wise even the soundtracks where cooler!

 

[Speedster911]

I think most of it stems largely from a lack of innovation or refusing to change with changing times. No matter how small your team is, if it's oozing with great innovative ideas, it's going to set new benchmarks.

GT was the first one to set some of these benchmarks. Then came along Forza, and now it looks like PCARS might surpass the former.

I will not hold the hardware responsible. I hold the dev team responsible. I hope PD can be flexible with their approach, flexible enough to do some really innovative things, while also listening to the fans. I very highly doubt if a great car/track count and graphics alone can redeem the franchise.

P.S: PCARS' sound reaches a new level of innovation for sure. FM4's are right up there too, rivaling some of the best PC sims today. It's all in the approach.

 

[gtnoobie]

With all due respect, i think the problem lies indeed with player's perception of how a car should sound like vs how it truly is. Sound heard as spectator is way different from the actual sound in the car. Different insulation and doppler effect alone will totally throw your hearing senses off. Sound heard in car at normal traffic condition usually varies in the 1000- 4000 rpm while in track condition, it is kept within a narrow optimal rpm of 5000-8000 in most cars. The way they record sound is way more accurate than using handphone or personal audio recording devices to record. The cacophony of engine at high rpm will likely drown out many of the characters, pops, wind noise and tire sound which plays a big part during casual driving. Also selective hearing during tense track moments will deeply change sound perception. I,for one, hardly takes my car above 5000rpm in city driving and rarely maintains it for any length of time.
However, this being a game, i guess PD is forced to create sound which sounds impressive to fanbase. So instead of reproducing what they truly hear at dyno, they now must synthesize sound to pander to player's demand. That may mean amplified lower growl which happens at lower rpm and deep fierce sounding exhaust notes audible to spectators instead of drivers.
How many of the unhappy fans of the sound actually goes on and drives unmodified stock version of the GT cars at track to compare how it sounds at consistent high rpm vs what is in the game i wonder. Most of my trackies made modification to the air filter, intake, exhaust, brakes at minimal before setting their cars wild on tracks.
I highly doubt Kaz who races or his sound team is deaf. They likely belongs to the minority who have heard the real deal in life and stuck to their ideals of 'real' sound to the detriment of gamer enjoyment. Also recording as they did would force them to mix in wind noise, tire noise and suspension impact separately which is a challenge.

 

[Speedster911]

What are your thoughts on FM4 engine sound accuracy? Just curious.. have you driven high-powered cars IRL?

At much higher speeds 200+ kph.. wind noise drowns out engine sound by nearly half. Depends on the cars aerodynamics too. If it's a a heavy car with not the best streamlining, wind noise will drown out engine sound more. Similarly, a car with excellent steamlining like some of the Ferraris, Lambos or McLarens, you will hear the engine more at higher speeds, in contrast to wind noise.

One thing I wish these console games would do better in terms of sound is road noise. Depending on the surface and of course choice of tires, this should vary.

 

[MonGnoM]

What are your thoughts on FM4 engine sound accuracy? Just curious.. have you driven high-powered cars IRL?

At much higher speeds 200+ kph.. wind noise drowns out engine sound by nearly half. Depends on the cars aerodynamics too. If it's a a heavy car with not the best streamlining, wind noise will drown out engine sound more. Similarly, a car with excellent steamlining like some of the Ferraris, Lambos or McLarens, you will hear the engine more at higher speeds, in contrast to wind noise.

One thing I wish these console games would do better in terms of sound is road noise. Depending on the surface and of course choice of tires, this should vary.

In my opinion, FM's engine noises are extremely exaggerated.
They sound like the car is louder than 160dß.

 

[gtnoobie]

No idea on FM4 engine sound accuracy cause i play that in passing at hotel lobbies and friend's home. Not sure whether they synthesize or use recording for the sound so can't comment.
For cars, highest powered i drive was Subaru STI. Current ride is peugeot thp156 5008. Did circuits races and advance driving in mazda 3. Friends races in 335i and fairlady 350z modified. Did 180kph only but do not find wind noise high unless i am cruising. When doing circuit races in carparks, bunch of type Rs, evo ix, x,viii, sti, mazda mps, alfa gt, sti, lambo, swift revving around in circles.
Finds engine sound way different when racing vs casual city drives and way different whether inside or outside car. Watches F1 at races itself. In short, i am like most of you, clueless how a real race car sounds as drivers at the track. Less clueless in passenger cars but i hardly notice the sound when cornering like a nutcase in the carpark circuit. Even a crash that bent my suspension when i skidded on grass feels unreal. The dull thud and things flying almost sounds similar to crash in GT

 

[Speedster911]

In my opinion, FM's engine noises are extremely exaggerated.
They sound like the car is louder than 160dß.

Right, I somewhat felt the same when I booted up the game for the first time. Try this:

Keep in game volume no higher than 16, set output to home theater. Keep audio focus on default. If you're playing the game through TV speakers or a low-end analog stereo sound system, with the game's output set to TV, it's going to sound dreadful.

Best way is to enjoy on a good digital surround system with high-end cables running from your console to the TV and sound system. The above in game settings play an important role.

Some cars sound quite loud, they do. Not all though, much like their RL counterparts. Cars like the Reventon, F50 or 599 for example are pretty loud.

It's the detail in the engine/exhaust notes that are commendable. Sound distortion is only audible when you haven't set up the game properly according to your system or simply playing through the TV speakers/low end audio system.

 

[SniperRed3]

I generally prefer a louder car it gets me in the scene. This video has probably been posted before but just in case.

 

[Speedster911]

I generally prefer a louder car it gets me in the scene. This video has probably been posted before but just in case.

Ditto.

Love the sound of revving engines coupled with the smell of virtual burning rubber.

 

[Griffith500]

Right, I somewhat felt the same when I booted up the game for the first time. Try this:

Keep in game volume no higher than 16, set output to home theater. Keep audio focus on default. If you're playing the game through TV speakers or a low-end analog stereo sound system, with the game's output set to TV, it's going to sound dreadful.

Best way is to enjoy on a good digital surround system with high-end cables running from your console to the TV and sound system. The above in game settings play an important role.

Some cars sound quite loud, they do. Not all though, much like their RL counterparts. Cars like the Reventon, F50 or 599 for example are pretty loud.

It's the detail in the engine/exhaust notes that are commendable. Sound distortion is only audible when you haven't set up the game properly according to your system or simply playing through the TV speakers/low end audio system.

That's funny, because Nick Wiswell said they target the worst hardware, so your dedicated audio gear should only highlight the flaws that are inherent to such a strategy (like mastering music for iPods - see here). I use semi-decent over-ear headphones, and those flaws are pretty obvious to me.

Others would say you shouldn't need that gear to get the best out of it, not that I would agree - it's like those playing games on an SD TV and complaining about the graininess in the graphics and illegibility of the HUD etc.

Remember we were talking about the exaggeration / unrealism.

 

[rjo78]

Remember seeing that vid sniper posted yesterday, seeing how pd do their sound now compared to how turn10 do it and since many of you might have seen the ' sound is everything' clip from project cars as demonstration, pd kinda no let me rephrase look like amateurs recording the sounds of cars!! I still have gt 4 and dusted off my copy popped it in, then went back to both gt5 and 6, i don't have a degree in developing games or sound wise but listening to the engine sounds i was like they re-used/recycled the sound from gt4 on ps2, it sounds to me so similair,just can't help but feel they been passed by the competition, heck even driveclub has superior sounds for a non sim race title,makes you wonder where pd is putting their priority on their gt franchise for now and in the future.