- 8,846
- Ottawa
- Automotive_Buff
They need Leo.
And his camera man to give you the sense of speed
And his camera man to give you the sense of speed
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Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered
- Thread starter FoRiZon
- 1,262 comments
- 96,282 views
- 4,382
OK. So why does that mean they should get rid of the stuff they've been working on to replace those assets, as you've demanded? Or had you forgotten that there is a ten year gap in the sound team's output, despite the team itself having grown in concert with the car modeling team? What assets have they been working on in all that time?
That is your supposition, and just because it makes a lot of people feel better to believe it, it does not make it true.
For instance, how has the car count delayed the course creator? Let's not make this another Standards thread, hey? It's irrelevant.
What new hardware? The PS4? How are you drawing your conclusions? If you're extrapolating from the PS2->PS3 transition, you should be aware that such blunt extrapolation didn't work for that transition based on the PS1->PS2 transition.
Irrelevant! You stated they should start from scratch, even though you have no idea what they've actually been doing.
Irrelevant! I am in favour of hearing what PD's new sound method actually is capable of. You should be, too, rather then saying they should ditch it before even showcasing it. Unless you have an ulterior motive...
Yeah, lest you forget to remind us all of your bias.
Also: irrelevant!
You're right, on all counts.
Cheers.
They need Leo.
And his camera man to give you the sense of speed
Right on! The game really could use some alterations, effects and fine tuning as far as sense of speed is concerned.
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- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
This may be a news flash for you, those games are on far more advanced systems. But then, maybe you forgot.While in other related news: Forza continues to make leaps and bounds, even though they may not be very huge. Oh and did I mention PCARS? Dang.. almost forgot!
I know this is the more hardcore region of the racing game universe - of course, the "true believes" are in the sim racing microcosm where arguments will forever rage on which racer is supreme, despite minor differences. So I suppose no one should be surprised that Gran Turismo is routinely raked over the coals, along with its creators. And I'm with a lot of you in wanting to gene splice some aspects of other games into GT. I like how league racing is represented in racing sims, and some of their better physics and sound, though I find Live For Speed to be the physics king. I like Forza's mod system and bodykit options, and that Livery Editor, allowing you to turn any car into a race car. I'm likely to hop back into it shortly, if Deus Ex or synth programming doesn't lure me away. To make cars, not race them.
But, I don't want Gran Turismo to turn into those games. There's a reason that all these games exist on the market: so that you can pick your flavor and eat it up. If you find that you want more league-ish stuff, then there are no shortage of sims you can buy. If you want a smaller car list, there's Forza, have at it, or wait for P CARS which is supposedly only a few weeks away from release.
I like the fact that one crazy visionary wants a racing game which is encyclopedic in scope. Sure, this means that a relatively small team has a pretty big load to shoulder, and some things get pushed down the calendar. But I really don't want Gran Turismo to shrink, ever, just grow. Become more encyclopedic. I don't think whacking out content will mean GT games will be better. I know many here disagree. But Kaz isn't making Gran Turismo for you specifically. He's making it for a market which has expectations of what a Gran Turismo game should be. And look at it this way. Suppose Simply Mad sent out a presser stating that they were going to whack out half the vehicles in Project CARS so it can be twice as good. I suppose you could make that math work on paper, but how many would like it?
Really, if Gran Turismo is some sort of genetic mutant to you, maybe it's time to just move on to greener games, because the broader fanbase just isn't as bitter about it. For all the haughty mention of GT6's poor sales, no other serious new racer can touch it on PS3. In fact on Amazon's Top 100 PS3 games, currently GT5 is still chugging along at 51, GT6 is 74, and NFS Rivals just managed to make the list at 93. So someone is doing something right.
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I very much doubt that cars already in GT5 and GT6 will get new recordings to make up for egregious sound files. The Sauber C9 will remain an embarrassment in GT7, but new recording techniques will probably be applied to cars modeled after 2014. Anything modeled before then will be a lost cause.
- 4,382
This may be a news flash for you, those games are on far more advanced systems. But then, maybe you forgot.
I know this is the more hardcore region of the racing game universe - of course, the "true believes" are in the sim racing microcosm where arguments will forever rage on which racer is supreme, despite minor differences. So I suppose no one should be surprised that Gran Turismo is routinely raked over the coals, along with its creators. And I'm with a lot of you in wanting to gene splice some aspects of other games into GT. I like how league racing is represented in racing sims, and some of their better physics and sound, though I find Live For Speed to be the physics king. I like Forza's mod system and bodykit options, and that Livery Editor, allowing you to turn any car into a race car. I'm likely to hop back into it shortly, if Deus Ex or synth programming doesn't lure me away. To make cars, not race them.
But, I don't want Gran Turismo to turn into those games. There's a reason that all these games exist on the market: so that you can pick your flavor and eat it up. If you find that you want more league-ish stuff, then there are no shortage of sims you can buy. If you want a smaller car list, there's Forza, have at it, or wait for P CARS which is supposedly only a few weeks away from release.
I like the fact that one crazy visionary wants a racing game which is encyclopedic in scope. Sure, this means that a relatively small team has a pretty big load to shoulder, and some things get pushed down the calendar. But I really don't want Gran Turismo to shrink, ever, just grow. Become more encyclopedic. I don't think whacking out content will mean GT games will be better. I know many here disagree. But Kaz isn't making Gran Turismo for you specifically. He's making it for a market which has expectations of what a Gran Turismo game should be. And look at it this way. Suppose Simply Mad sent out a presser stating that they were going to whack out half the vehicles in Project CARS so it can be twice as good. I suppose you could make that math work on paper, but how many would like it?
Really, if Gran Turismo is some sort of genetic mutant to you, maybe it's time to just move on to greener games, because the broader fanbase just isn't as bitter about it. For all the haughty mention of GT6's poor sales, no other serious new racer can touch it on PS3. In fact on Amazon's Top 100 PS3 games, currently GT5 is still chugging along at 51, GT6 is 74, and NFS Rivals just managed to make the list at 93. So someone is doing something right.
I wasn't comparing those games to nay other game, to begin with. What gave you that notion?
I will only level criticism at GT7 once it comes out, if need be.
- 9
- Netherlands
- tornadoscrew
PD needs this guy
Any help is welcome right XD , and now in all seriousness
they need to improve cause seeing and hearing driveclub's audio which to is impressive and hearing project cars 1st time on ps4, it matches the pc version 100% and that for a 399 box,pd got alot of work and redeeming to do 
to earn a 👍!!
- 4,382
Would you like to drive the same cars in FM4? Just have a go and let us know.
I don't think it's a bad idea at all PD borrow some techniques and/or elements of sound design from the Forza games.
I don't think it's a bad idea at all PD borrow some techniques and/or elements of sound design from the Forza games.
- 10,222
- South
- HarskGaming96
I think that it is an great idea PD using Forza's techniques...
Plus, there is another rally car which don't match the real sound in GT5 & 6:
Real sound:
- 589
- United States
Sound capturing is an art-form. The guys over at Turn 10 have an amazing team of sound engineers, and as much as I would love to see the same techniques utilized in GT6, I doubt the lads over at T10 are willing to share their secrets with the competition. After all, the difference in sound authenticity between GT and FM has been a deal-breaker for a lot of sim-racers, including most of my friends. I don't think T10 would be willing to outsource their sounds, either, but I wouldn't be the one to know. I think PD is making a good effort of reaching out to the community to find sound engineers. The community is obviously already passionate about the game, and cars in general, and if you're gonna make the effort of going through with PD's application, I can only assume that you are more than willing. What worries me is how late PD is with recruiting new sound staff, seeing as how Kaz wanted a 2015 release for GT7.
- 8,846
- Ottawa
- Automotive_Buff
Well sound isn't the only feature the guys over T10 have 'perfected'. Even if GT was to have equivalent or better sounds, T10 would still have the upper hand in the graphics department, tuning department, online department, etc.
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
I'd have to disagree with you there in terms of the Graphics department. Tuning and online I rate is a draw
- 589
- United States
Hmm, interesting, because I agree with you. If "graphics" includes everything from textures, shadows, lighting, etc., then I would say that FM5 has better graphics than GT6. I still prefer the colours in GT6 over Forza's overly saturated colours, but overall, I believe FM5 has a better package. If we are comparing developers, PD vs FM, then I'd say that PD has consistently proven that they are masters at virtual image replication with each GT title. I still remember how GT4 looked back in the day and how it blew my mind. I have no doubt that GT7 will blow both Forza and pCars out the water.
I wouldn't say that tuning is a draw, though. One thing I love about Forza's upgrade system is how each individual upgrade affects another. Boring your block, installing bigger headers and adjusting your fuel injection, for example, and then not upgrading your exhaust system actually ends up choking your motor. If you upgrade your exhaust after those upgrades, you'll get the combined power output of what those upgrades should be getting you, now that your motor is breathing. GT's upgrade system isn't that deep, nor does it allow the same type of variety as FM's upgrade system. Also, as far as tuning goes, FM titles have live telemetry data on-screen, which makes tuning much easier.
- 8,846
- Ottawa
- Automotive_Buff
Well graphics for me, also includes your own artwork and applying that to your car.
Furthermore, I would like to see live tuning in GT. I loved the tuning system in NFS SHIFT 2: Unleashed
Furthermore, I would like to see live tuning in GT. I loved the tuning system in NFS SHIFT 2: Unleashed
- 589
- United States
If I could bring one feature over from NFS, it would be Autosculpt from NFS: Carbon.
With that system, the possibilities were endless!
- 4,382
Let's not give FM the upper hand in graphics just yet. GT7 hasn't arrived yet. Only then would it be fair to compare both current gen titles. I do love the lighting in GT5 and 6, and it definitely leans towards towards photo-realism. Forza's look is Forza's look, and I like it for what it is. They dramatically improved visuals from 3 to 4, and did a good job with 5.
Kaz IS late in getting serious about sound, but at least it hit him finally. It would be interesting to see them get the sound right with the high car count and all.
So sounds, yeah Forza. Visuals, pretty much neck to neck. Tuning, Forza for sure.
And yeah, S2's live tuning is brilliant. Not to mention the additional tuning options. Though I found it extremely cumbersome having to go to an event and see what circuit I'm racing at, then go back to the menu and load/edit the tune for that track, EVERY time. Got really frustrated, and thanks to the strange physics, just ended up uninstalling the game.
Sorry for the off-topic.
Kaz IS late in getting serious about sound, but at least it hit him finally. It would be interesting to see them get the sound right with the high car count and all.
So sounds, yeah Forza. Visuals, pretty much neck to neck. Tuning, Forza for sure.
And yeah, S2's live tuning is brilliant. Not to mention the additional tuning options. Though I found it extremely cumbersome having to go to an event and see what circuit I'm racing at, then go back to the menu and load/edit the tune for that track, EVERY time. Got really frustrated, and thanks to the strange physics, just ended up uninstalling the game.
Sorry for the off-topic.
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
Forza titles are mainly outsourced games, and the sound design is not an exception. There is not a T10's secret propietary technology behind it, just this company available to any game developer that can't do the task for itself:
http://www.theaudioguys.co.uk/
http://www.develop-online.net/news/forza-3-project-proves-outsourcing-works/0105614
What PD is researching is something more advanced. It will bring a more natural, dynamic, clean and detailed sound of what might be achieved throught a classic sound sample design.
- 926
- machschnel
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
Because there would be no reason to research and implement this new (complex) method to render sounds if the advantages over the actual GT sound or other (easier) traditional methods don't exist.
What is attempting PD could be the start of a true next-gen sound rendering system:
https://www.khronos.org/assets/uplo...-BOF-Intel-Sound-Rendering_SIGGRAPH-Aug11.pdf
But use 'would' instead if you prefer the sceptic side.
- 4,382
Outsourced or not, they nailed em' didn't they? I know for sure, as I've driven some of these cars, and seen a handful pass by. Not to mention the countless car review and test drive videos I've come across. T10 understands how crucial doing justice to engine audio is.
I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions regarding GT7. Let's wait for it to come out first.
- 8,721
I'd say PD is making its own contribution in that direction. That presentation focused on the auralisation, which PD have down pat (I did my first mixing and spatialising system in the frequency-domain, too, with an "HRTF-based" FIR filter; I used ambisonic i.e. spherical harmonic panning instead of the unphysical "cosine pan" for speaker arrays, but that version was time-domain because of how the sounds were generated at source).
PD's propagation step isn't bad either (though there's no fancy reverb solution yet, there is transmission delay, correct geometric distance attenuation and convincing low-pass effect), and PD are going one step deeper by re-evaluating the synthesis step, which in that presentation is also missing a component: acoustic transfer (because everyone relies on samples, which have transfer at source and receiver i.e. the microphone baked in, however inappropriate).
Acoustic transfer drastically complicates the propagation aspect, depending on how you do it (it messes with reverb, certainly), but its effect is pretty impressive. PD have dabbled already with the way the exhaust sound is "transferred" from the exhaust pipe and into the environment (before it bounces off anything), including the sound from the generated flow noise.
Acoustic transfer is the key to unlocking realistic physical modeling synthesis, as without knowing how to turn internal vibrations of an object into vibrations of the air surrounding that object, it won't sound natural. With transfer, physical models can sound more natural than samples when there is spatial variation and movement involved: the model varies realistically and subtly, whereas the sample always sounds the same unless you multi-sample for listening angle, and then only sounds "right" at the angles recorded.
Physical models are going to be the future of high end interactive audio.
- 4,382
Pretty sure... PD has you... on their payroll. 
- 589
- United States
I'd say PD is making its own contribution in that direction. That presentation focused on the auralisation, which PD have down pat (I did my first mixing and spatialising system in the frequency-domain, too, with an "HRTF-based" FIR filter; I used ambisonic i.e. spherical harmonic panning instead of the unphysical "cosine pan" for speaker arrays, but that version was time-domain because of how the sounds were generated at source).
PD's propagation step isn't bad either (though there's no fancy reverb solution yet, there is transmission delay, correct geometric distance attenuation and convincing low-pass effect), and PD are going one step deeper by re-evaluating the synthesis step, which in that presentation is also missing a component: acoustic transfer (because everyone relies on samples, which have transfer at source and receiver i.e. the microphone baked in, however inappropriate).
Acoustic transfer drastically complicates the propagation aspect, depending on how you do it (it messes with reverb, certainly), but its effect is pretty impressive. PD have dabbled already with the way the exhaust sound is "transferred" from the exhaust pipe and into the environment (before it bounces off anything), including the sound from the generated flow noise.
Acoustic transfer is the key to unlocking realistic physical modeling synthesis, as without knowing how to turn internal vibrations of an object into vibrations of the air surrounding that object, it won't sound natural. With transfer, physical models can sound more natural than samples when there is spatial variation and movement involved: the model varies realistically and subtly, whereas the sample always sounds the same unless you multi-sample for listening angle, and then only sounds "right" at the angles recorded.
Physical models are going to be the future of high end interactive audio.
You don't happen to be this guy, are you? I can't understand a single word you said....but carry on! Haha.
- 8,721
How can you be sure of such a thing?Pretty sure... PD has you... on their payroll.
That guy is a genuine genius. I've not seen the servicing part before, though, so that was fun!
- 589
- United States
That guy is a genuine genius. I've not seen the servicing part before, though, so that was fun!
Haha, I have a background as a computer engineer and currently compete Nationally in motor-racing, and I can't understand a single word that old fart is saying. Sounds like a High School kid who didn't do his homework and is BS'ing his way through his presentation, haha.
Your post reminded me of him. Too technical for my simple mind.
- 8,721
Aha, the Turbo-Encabulator is sort of an industry joke, though (which you knew, right?) It's meant to sound like techno-babble, even to those who might know a thing or two about engineering or science etc.Haha, I have a background as a computer engineer and currently compete Nationally in motor-racing, and I can't understand a single word that old fart is saying. Sounds like a High School kid who didn't do his homework and is BS'ing his way through his presentation, haha.
Your post reminded me of him. Too technical for my simple mind.
Turns out it was originally published back in 1944! (Post)Grad students...
If it helps, what I was basically saying is that there is lots of exciting things being done with sound in research, but game devs tend to ignore the stuff they can't bolt onto their existing systems and workflows, because they're under pressure to deliver "results". PD don't have that pressure to the same degree, it would seem, and they are doing some tasty things with sound "simulation" in the background (which bodes well for the future).
This video has some comparisons (starting at 1:35) that show the effect / importance of acoustic transfer; even the high quality synthesis sounds dull without appropriate (and approximate!) rendering of the radiation of that sound. What we have in games is generally monopole rendering (for 3D sound), which is why it needs all those pre-baked spatial cues (i.e. recordings) to sound convincing, and synthetic sounds don't work so well without extra processing to add those cues ("transfer").
OP Updated:
pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/811
Its basically says sound application is now very crowded. Keep it up guys! Make sound better!
Also no SPAM please!
pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/811
Its basically says sound application is now very crowded. Keep it up guys! Make sound better!
Also no SPAM please!
- 4,382
Me too. And here's hoping PD picks em wisely and gives as much attention to sound as they do to graphics.
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