Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[rono_thomas]

Motivation is ultimately provided by yourself not by the entity involved. It doesn't matter how beneficial the exercise is when you have no desire to commit to it.

I completely disagree motivation is both internal and external factors that stimulate a desire to commit to whatever that maybe.

 

[Groundfish]

V4
fair and equal are 2 diff terms with diff meanings. GT Sports release said fair not equal. It means rules are the same for all.
The games fair. The rest of your post is more wordsmith nonsense, except the 3.5 second number you call a fair number for a 16 player grid.
Had you put any effort into your response aside from spread message spread message spread message, you would have replied with 2 obvious questions that also must be answered for that number to have any relevance at all.
I mean really? 3.5 on all possible car track combos within the game? Your response speaks for itself.

 

[rono_thomas]

V4
fair and equal are 2 diff terms with diff meanings. GT Sports release said fair not equal. It means rules are the same for all.
The games fair.

 

[Groundfish]

Rono,
I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

How to Enjoy Fair and Fun Online Racing: Introducing the 'Sport Mode' of Gran Turismo Sport

To measure the skill of the players, we will be using two indexes, called the 'Driver Rating' (DR) and 'Sportsmanship Rating' (SR). DR indicates how fast a player is, and SR indicates how well-mannered they are during a race. 'Sports Mode' will match drivers of equal level together

fair and equal are 2 diff terms with diff meanings. GT Sports release said fair not equal.

And how do you fail to see "Enjoy Fair and Fun Online racing in the first quote?
And how do you fail to see "Sport Mode will match drivers of equal level together in the second quote?
Would you again like to attempt to say GT Sports release said fair not equal?

Both quotes are taken from the same official GTS release just different paragraphs within the document.
The document was posted in an earlier post within this thread but I did not bother to repost the whole thing again.

But it clearly states both Fair and Equal! So both terms and both meanings do apply!
Read what is written and make sure you comprehend it is my suggestion as apparently you failed to do here.

 

[Groundfish]

V4,
I apologize for my mistake.
But, that doesn’t change the fact that you defined equal as a 3.5 second grid gap for any race with sixteen drivers.
As soon as Rono posted that I was on the homepage looking at it. My questions do apply though, are you going to answer them or continue to relish in ferreting out a scan reading lapse on my part?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

My questions do apply though, are you going to answer them or continue to relish in ferreting out a scan reading lapse on my part?

I have on many occasions "answered" you on quite a few subjects. I do not really feel you warrant further explanations concerning my position in this thread.

My position has been the same since the beginning, I have posted information and facts that back my position and my position is the same and has been since the start of this conversation and bottom line the game fails to deliver to what it advertised.

Everything else is BS and there are plenty of examples documenting this is a legitimate gripe.

But all the other side has to offer is BS, you cannot change what PD said Sport Mode would be and that is not what sport mode delivers to all players of the game.

The excuses to why, low player numbers or what some prefers larger grids versus smaller grids even matched, even if it is about triophies or wins for some players is irrelevant it does absolutely nothing to change the fact the game does not do what it advertises. Actually nothing else in this godforsaken thread really matters.

We can continue forever and my opinion will not change as well as most that have posted in this thread and regardless if we came up with the perfect solution PD will still do what PD wants and our opinions mean squat anyway.

I do find it sort of unusual that a niche genre game with a limited following to begin with that the more hardcore or serious members would not have more of an interest to the game to be fun for all players to retain more numbers.

a 6% total participation rate which probably is actually even lower as that 6% includes all SPORT Mode racers that completed over 20 races and does not deduct those that have since quit playing after the 20 race level in my opinion does not bode well for the future of Sport Mode being a focus going forward.

If I owned the studio and 94% of my customers did not care for the sport mode aspect of the game I cannot see from a developing point to continue as the participation numbers say the experiment was a failure.

I would forget what the 6% likes and develop what the 94 % wants which apparently is more offline focused as in the past.

The casual guys that people in this thread and the high level guys do not care about whether they like the game or not will not care if the sport mode servers are shut down tonight!

So we will see how all that dedication pays off in the future, oh well there is always iracing!

Now I do not have to worry about BOP for sport mode practice I can make the custom races more fun by reducing the hp enough to make the AI fun.

And even the penalties and getting punted off every other race will not be an issue any longer!

I do not need sport mode just like the other 94+% of the players of this game!

 

[twitcher]

But didn't in those games mario and zelda you advanced levels aka beat the lower level first before you went to the next level and each level it got a little harder? Hell even pac man got harder with more and faster opponents the higher the level you went.

I do not think I have played any games that you started off facing the competition which may well be the top level bosses in the game while you were just a player in the first few lower levels.

So how is this game the same as those, a guy with 10 races only just starting first level first level can be matched against the big boss which is 5 levels higher?

Not the same, even space invaders had levels and only got harder as you advanced to higher levels and how old is that game?

The concept of ladders to advance to higher difficulty levels has been around since Pong, where the ball moved faster and the paddle got smaller the more you advanced levels.

This is about the only game I have played that does not recognize experience or levels.

First time I played a FPS online that wasn’t just a LAN party with some friends, was Battlefield Bad Company on PS3. First game I went something like 42-0 (edit: I mean 0-42 ). Second game wasn’t much better. I think by the 5th game, between myself and my 2 friends who were with me, we managed to get 1 kill....and it was the most glorious of kills!!

By the time I had grown tired of BF around the start of the PS4 generation, I had a positive kill death ratio and I was a beast at flying the attack helicopters and mini copters.


Not once, in years of getting absolutely roflstomped by god knows how many 14 year kids, I never once wished “for better match making, so I’d have a more fair chance at finishing first on the leaderboards”. Not once. That was the whole point of the playing the game - get gud, or get rolled.

 

[Groundfish]

V4
You have outdone yourself. You managed to type I’ve no idea how many letters and again did not respond directly. Well done, you have totally confirmed what I posted in One of my first posts here. I do not have the time or inclination to point out the multitude of mistakes and misdirections present within your excessive number of posts on this thread. It is sufficient to me to point out intentional wordsmithing when I see it.
Again, it’s not my fault that GT Sport is as good as it is and many racers are spending more time in it than other titles. PD made it not me.

 

[kjeldsen]

KJ
Can you define equal relative to this game? Is it the letter next to the name?
What time spread is in your opinion equal racing in a sixteen car grid?

I came up with an answer you never responded?

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

To me it sounds like vfour is trying to bend something like the natural logarithm, abstractly put, shifting the blame on the matchmaking to fit his narrative when it has pretty much nothing to do with player retention. Vfour needs to realize that only a fraction of players throughout various games have the propensity to partake in a competitive surrounding. The explanation to this simple. The vast majority of people can't be bothered with a try-hard, cut-throat and at times toxically permeated environment when all they want to do is fire up a game relax and have fun.

That 6% player retention rate may indeed be slightly on the low side for a competitive mode. But that is most likely attributed to GTS being a very unforgiving game. It doesn't have to take more than a brake check, divebomb, late brake and what not to ruin your race for podium. Thus people don't feel to be in control of their results. Kind of the same way that people are afraid to fly for the same very reason but at the same time have no qualms about travelling by car. The latter being way more hazardous.

 

[Greycap]

That 6% player retention rate may indeed be slightly on the low side for a competitive mode.

One thing that may be lost in all this avalanche of numbers is how much that 6% really is. We see 6% and think OMG THAT'S LOW when in reality it's 300.000 people. Three hundred thousand people. I might understand the concern for player retention if the figure was lacking two zeros less but we're talking about more than a quarter of a million people here.

 

[graveltrap]

One thing that may be lost in all this avalanche of numbers is how much that 6% really is. We see 6% and think OMG THAT'S LOW when in reality it's 300.000 people. Three hundred thousand people. I might understand the concern for player retention if the figure was lacking two zeros less but we're talking about more than a quarter of a million people here.

That is just the people that have done more than 20 races, if you look at the daily stats for sport mode on Kudos Prime, it ranges from 32K to 40K players and that is spread across the three (?) different regions.

Weekly player count was around 100K if I remember correctly, again spread across the regions.


Note: The accuracy of the figures provided by the website has been brought to question already, but it is the only data we have...

 

[kilesa4568]

I guess people didn't realise a ranked racing game could be so much of a grind? A great platform for the top splits while everyone else can enjoy minimal gains, losses and trying to survive on track. Nervously checking your rank after each bad race. Doesn't that sound appealing?

Sport mode isn't for me. I love racing but I don't want a volatile career in it. I'll chill in the lobbies instead thank you.

 

[Woodybobs]

I would forget what the 6% likes and develop what the 94 % wants which apparently is more offline focused as in the past.

If E-sports continue to grow we might see a situation where the top 0.1% become a developer's most valuable commodity. It might never happen but at this stage potentially missing out on that market could be disastrous.

 

[Groundfish]

Kjeldsen
I read that answer as revisiting the existing features within the game with a few added strings. Do you also think that any grid with a time gap over 3.5 is unfair? That’s what V4 said. Obviously I disagree because if you are starting in last 3 seconds off in a typical sprint your chance of winning is so minute.
So, to me, there’s just no way to give that last place any real chance at victory in any typical sprint.
I don’t see that as a travesty of justice. To me it’s as fair and equal as it’s gonna be.

 

[kjeldsen]

If E-sports continue to grow we might see a situation where the top 0.1% become a developer's most valuable commodity. It might never happen but at this stage potentially missing out on that market could be disastrous.

Successful E-sport games are made to satisfy beginners aka n00bs and use Matchmaking to an extreme degree, knowing that you have to walk before you can run.

L.O.L : https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide
DOTA: https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Matchmaking
CS-Go: https://dotesports.com/counter-strike/news/csgo-rankings-explained-14168
its a science.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system

To me it sounds like vfour is trying to bend something like the natural logarithm, abstractly put, shifting the blame on the matchmaking to fit his narrative when it has pretty much nothing to do with player retention. Vfour needs to realize that only a fraction of players throughout various games have the propensity to partake in a competitive surrounding. The explanation to this simple. The vast majority of people can't be bothered with a try-hard, cut-throat and at times toxically permeated environment when all they want to do is fire up a game relax and have fun.

That 6% player retention rate may indeed be slightly on the low side for a competitive mode. But that is most likely attributed to GTS being a very unforgiving game. It doesn't have to take more than a brake check, divebomb, late brake and what not to ruin your race for podium. Thus people don't feel to be in control of their results. Kind of the same way that people are afraid to fly for the same very reason but at the same time have no qualms about travelling by car. The latter being way more hazardous.

You are both right, because we have no idea why people stop playing or never go online. But you can look beyond GTS and watch how it is done in other games, that have years of experience in this matter. And conclude that GTS is doing almost everything wrong compared to them.

I am pretty certain that those that buy this game, with the intention to race online are hit with everything you mentioned. And the game does very very little to help them.

How about having fun as motivation? Used to work wonders with super mario and zelda back in -91(?) later with quake and counter-strike on PC back in 97-99.

What changed? Ah right, the entitled clientele. It all started with the achievement cancer with call of duty. When losers were rewarded participation trophies for being bad.

I read this, and apart from the look back to very old games that had their time you bring up a very important part of a great matchmaking.. FUN

 

[Woodybobs]

Successful E-sport games are made to satisfy beginners aka n00bs and use Matchmaking to an extreme degree, knowing that you have to walk before you can run.

I was pointing out that PD won't necessarily prioritise the quoted 94% of more casual gamers because of the potential for the top .1% to increase sales in the future. I wasn't making any point about matchmaking. For the record I want perfect matchmaking for everyone, everytime. I just haven't seen any convincing ideas to achieve it yet.

 

[Mr616]

Successful E-sport games are made to satisfy beginners aka n00bs and use Matchmaking to an extreme degree, knowing that you have to walk before you can run.

L.O.L : https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide
DOTA: https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Matchmaking
CS-Go: https://dotesports.com/counter-strike/news/csgo-rankings-explained-14168
its a science.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system

First link first sentence "TRY".

Second link first sentence "TRIES".

CSGO: "You'll have to invest time to get better"

The hardcore players will always spend more time on the game and as such, will populate matchmaking more than other more casual players.

I've watched GSGO "first time" streams where new players have been destroyed first game. It's up to the player to learn and get better.

I've played COD and Battlefield amongst others and both communities, and both ends of the player spectrum complained of bad matchmaking. Regions and connection also play a part.

 

[Groundfish]

I don’t know others history with gaming. Gt Sport was first video game purchased since PS 2 Battle arena toshinden which I played against friends in same room.
I didn’t attempt an online race for maybe a month and a half of daily play I think. Even then it was n100.
I was recently the definition of noob. Never played a racing game since ridge racer.
Yes the medal challenges were hard for me. No, I don’t think I even currently have all gold.
Yes, I NEED the wheel. Can’t play modern video games due to poor fine motor control.
The idea of going online and racing was very intimidating, however I found y just concentrating on basics like knowing where to brake and concentrating on not hitting anyone everything worked out.
Knowing nothing of online gaming I certainly had no expectation of being coddled and driving around super slow.
I set ai on easy for that.
To me it’s just interest in racing. No interest no play. People who like racing like the game and play.

 

[Sander 001]

If E-sports continue to grow we might see a situation where the top 0.1% become a developer's most valuable commodity.

How?

 

[Woodybobs]

How?

They basically become advertising for the game. Ultimately that scenario is a long way off (it might not happen at all), but if it does being late to the party could be catastrophic.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

How?

Through the eSports scene. Look at CS:GO and the audience it attracts every year for instance. It's a lucrative multimillion dollar option

Not that I can see this happening in GTS though

 

[kjeldsen]

First link first sentence "TRY".

Second link first sentence "TRIES".

CSGO: "You'll have to invest time to get better"

The hardcore players will always spend more time on the game and as such, will populate matchmaking more than other more casual players.

I've watched GSGO "first time" streams where new players have been destroyed first game. It's up to the player to learn and get better.

I've played COD and Battlefield amongst others and both communities, and both ends of the player spectrum complained of bad matchmaking. Regions and connection also play a part.

First link:

• Fair matches - Each team is roughly the same skill
  

Second link:

Valve has stated that matchmaking tries to fulfil several criteria:

• The teams are balanced. (Each team has a 50% chance to win.)

GT-Sports community:

• Git gud

Hahaha, thank you anyway, at least you clicked the links.. and ignored everything about them, but hey...

 

[Woodybobs]

Through the eSports scene. Look at CS:GO and the audience it attracts every year for instance. It's a lucrative multimillion dollar option

Not that I can see this happening in GTS though

Sim racing has an advantage over other genres when it comes to eSports because the template for broadcasting has already been set by TV broadcasting of motorsports. There is potential to grab a larger market share.

 

[rono_thomas]

Sim racing has an advantage over other genres when it comes to eSports because the template for broadcasting has already been set by TV broadcasting of motorsports. There is potential to grab a larger market share.

*Cough* are they broadcasting top24 races?

 

[Groundfish]

To add I am not specifically saying get good. I am saying there is a bare minimum required to be able to enjoy racing others.
Any racing with anyone’s no good if you can’t complete 2 laps without crashing. This should really not even need to be said.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Sim racing has an advantage over other genres when it comes to eSports because the template for broadcasting has already been set by TV broadcasting of motorsports. There is potential to grab a larger market share.

And I guess Madden has no previous template with both NCAA college and NFL football broadcast and audience?

What about Fifa and siccer? There is no template for for broadcasting TV of the game of soccer?

What about major league baseball, I guess they have no template for tv broadcasting as well?

What about golf and the template of the PGA

And sim racing has an advantage in e-sports over other genre video games because?

Factor in the much larger potential audiences these sports have in the mainstream over motorsports.

Ask the average citizen who is Tiger Woods and then ask the average citizen who is Lewis Hamilton and then what they do for a living and see what percentage of mainstream knows which one.

Motorsports as a whole has a much smaller mainstream fan base now that it did years ago. Back then ask anyone who Mario Andretti was and they would know. Today not so much so again the sports with the largest mainstream fan base are the ones that may cash in on the e-sports not the niche markets in my opinion.

 

[Woodybobs]

*Cough* are they broadcasting top24 races?

I don't really know what you mean. All I've said is that in the future the top players in any eSport game could become valuable to developers. It's not a certainty by any means but any growing industry is worth keeping an eye on. In terms of popularity sim racing eSports are a long way behind other genres but it's likely that all the developers will take steps to try get a slice of the pie. Who knows why they haven't been broadcasting but rumour has it that some brodcasting experimentation has taken place in some T24 races

 

[kjeldsen]

To add I am not specifically saying get good. I am saying there is a bare minimum required to be able to enjoy racing others.
Any racing with anyone’s no good if you can’t complete 2 laps without crashing. This should really not even need to be said.

Maybe one of those bare minimum requirements could be a better matchmaking.